Europe 23/24

level 4 seems high

Level 4 is a no-go off piste. Things need to be a 3 or 2. A level 1 means the snow sucks. Hopefully you have gear or rent. Otherwise I’d stay close to pistes.

Courmayeur is very compact aside from those far outside boundary guided routes ChrisC skied. La Thuile has expansive areas between the pistes, especially on the north side.

Agree with this.

I would rather ski the easy to access large off-piste zones at La Thuile. Its north side has lots of opportunity off any of its lifts. Even the East side is good - especially skiers right when it gets steeper. Likely don’t need to venture to La Rosiere if La Thuile’s north is good.

Courmayeur has easy off-piste off the Youla tram - bowl and Youla Nera. I’m sure the guide will take you here - lots of off- piste from Youla to Gabba lift/zone. Also some trees off the Zerotta lift.

. my hope is that maybe if the 4k descent off piste routes or big couloirs arent an option that the piste adjacent off piste easy powder is easily available. defintiely has been plenty of snow.

Things should stabilize into the Level 3 zone.

This is splitting hairs, but I might try the easy access guided La Thuile terrain and let Courmayeur settle. But these snow forecasts are all over the map.

Now wepowder has over 2 meters on the marmaloda glacier and 1.5 meters in Cortina and Arabba / 1.25 meters in Monterosa and 50 cm in Courmayeur.

OpenSnow is a bit less accurate. The model seems to overweight elevation above all else.

And their historical snowfalls are just crap - they never accurately compare to actual. Often 50-200% off. The written outlook seems insightful, but the model. (Don’t know why the cant pull data from Bergfex or SnoCountry??!!)

(It only took Joel 5-10 years to understand that Telluride’s best storms come from W/NW/N and not from the south).

Good luck 👍
 
My recommendation for Via Lattea/Montgenèvre still holds, see red font below.



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Tuesday 27 February 2024 – More snow for some, mostly in the south

An area of low pressure is currently centred over the Mediterranean, not far from Corsica. This will only drift very slowly southwards over the next couple of days, and this type of weather setup means snow for the southwestern Alps, with the most set to fall in the southern Italian Piedmont (e.g. Prato Nevoso, Bardonecchia, Sestriere) where 40cm+ is likely in the next 24-36 hours alone.

Snow falling over the snow-covered slopes of Bardonecchia, Italy, with mountain building in the background surrounded by snow-covered trees – Weather to ski – Today in the Alps, 27 February 2024

That’s more like it! Looking much wintrier in Bardonecchia in the Italian Piedmont, with more snow on its way

Other resorts that should do quite well are those very close to the southern French/Italian border, such as Isola 2000, the Queyras and Montgenèvre and, to a lesser extent, Val Cenis and Val d’Isère/Tignes.

Some useful, but not exceptional falls, are also expected a bit further north and east, in Pila, Cervinia, the Monte Rosa region and over the border in Zermatt and Saas-Fee. There will also be some moderate snowfalls right across the central/eastern Italian Alps, including in Livigno, Passo Tonale and the Dolomites. The extreme northwest of Italy (Courmayeur) and, more generally, the northern half of the Alps will see little or no snow, however.

Later this week, a new storm will approach the Alps from the west, which is expected to deliver further snow, probably again favouring the southern Alps but perhaps also the west.

As for snow conditions in the Alps, they remain considerably better than they were a week or two ago and some resorts now have plenty of fresh snow to enjoy. However, many lower altitude areas are still struggling with a meager, broken, or even non-existent natural base, which is very difficult to rebuild at this stage of the season.
 
I believe skiandgolfnut is already in Courmayeur. Those suspect OpenSnow models claim Courmayeur and La Thuile got 11 inches of snow Monday/Tuesday. The Wednesday storm in the Via Lattea is predicted to have a rain/snow line rising from 4,300 feet tonight to 6,000 feet during the day Wednesday. That's just below the Sestriere base but above the others in Via Lattea.
 
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The extreme northwest of Italy (Courmayeur) and, more generally, the northern half of the Alps will see little or no snow, however.

Lots of differing opinions.

WePowder, OpenSnow and Weathertoski are not aligned in their forecasts.

Someone/model is wrong. You have heavy snow targets ranging from Southern France to Monterosa to the Dolomites.

More Rare storm pattern so less historical pattern.

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Pulled into Geneva early. When I entered the Mont Blanc tunnel there was virtually no snow on the ground. When I exited on the Italian side it was full winter. Lightly snowing in town when I got here with what seemed like at least a foot of fresh snow on the local roofs. Even operating not at 100% I was on at the top of the Dolonne Gondola before 11. Visibility was as I expected not great today. What I failed to realize beforehand though was just how tree lined of a mountain this is. Having only previously been to zermatt st moritz and the arlberg I was taken aback that essentially up to the Yula tram everything was at tree line. Made for a salvageable day on what in another location might have been a lost cause. It made piste skiing decent and I actually found a lot of good lines in the trees that seemed safe. It must have snowed at least 18 inches here in the last few days, the powder was soft and deep. A bit tracked out in the trees but I was happy to see it given I had no clue where I was going otherwise. Skied for about 4 hours before settling in at La Chaumiere for lunch which I scouted from the lift and being Tuesday was not full. Venison Polenta and an amazing local Pinot Noir and that was enough for me. I tried going up the Checrouit gondola one more time from lunch but my knees could not handle it. Ski’d the home run down to Dolonne and called it a day around 3:30. Overall I was grateful to find more snow than I could have hoped for, good tree skiing for a day with poor visibility, and am looking forward to better visibility and guided off piste tomorrow. Seems like most of the snow in the coming days is further south but at this point there is plenty of snow and I prefer the visibility so I feel good about the decision. Mountain is definitely as small as advertised, especially with the two trams not operational today, but certainly enough for a couple of days. Hopefully they will open and if not there is plenty of good tree skiing to find. We will go to La Thuille and hopefully do some guided off the Mont Blanc. No complaints, happy customer.
 
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It must have snowed at least 18 inches here in the last few days
OpenSnow model numbers were too low. :eusa-dance: Perhaps there's enough new snow for the Courmayeur guides to utilize the Val Veny off piste. La Thuile terrain is expansive but mostly intermediate, so should not get tracked out too fast. Another off piste option, mellow but very scenic, is the Vallée Blanche from the Helbronner tram. Guides would arrange the return from Chamonix.
 
To clarify: you landed early this morning and were skiing a few hours later? If yes, glad to finally see someone else from the NYC region getting some arrival-day turns!
:eusa-clap:
 
Too bad the ladder is gone. These would be optimal conditions for the Toula Glacier off the Helbronner cable car - even if you could only ski to mid-station.

 
To clarify: you landed early this morning and were skiing a few hours later? If yes, glad to finally see someone else from the NYC region getting some arrival-day turns!
:eusa-clap:
Always. In 2020 took a Neos air flight from JFK to Milan that landed by 6 am and was skiing at St Moritz by 1030. In 2018 landed in Zurich at 7 and was skiing in Steuben by 11. Geneva was easy, we were on the ground before 7. Swiss actually added a 430 PM flight to Zurich this year which gets in by 6 AM. I want to take that one of these days. I typically only can come for 5 days, I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old. I value the time away and need to make good use of it. Jet lag doesn’t get me too bad anyways.
 
In the opposite direction, a couple times I've used United miles to take the Swiss 5:15 pm departure out of Zurich, allowing a half day of skiing before flying back to NJ.
 
In the opposite direction, a couple times I've used United miles to take the Swiss 5:15 pm departure out of Zurich, allowing a half day of skiing before flying back to NJ.
Did that on the trip to arlberg. I skied until noon. Was great. I was in Jackson in January. Getting there and back was just as difficult, more expensive, and most importantly to me burned as much time. A minimum of one wasted travel day. I’d just rather come here.
 
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Getting there and back was just as difficult, more expensive, and most importantly to me burned as much time. A minimum of one wasted travel day. I’d just rather come here
That's been my rap for years. Not having to change planes (for us living near big airports on the East Coast) counts significantly in my book: easier logistics, being able to sleep several hours on the plane, the high unlikelihood of luggage getting delayed, etc.
 
Mixed bag today. Still, the lunch and views made up for any shortcomings in the off piste. Coverage was not the issue, plenty of snow. There was a valley cloud that just hung around all day and the humidity seemed to crush the snow. At high elevation was still heavy, by the lower elevations of the lifts it was not enjoyable. Our guide was knowledgeable and tried every exposure we could possibly find. Eventually we just decided staying on piste was more tolerable. Had several good runs on piste, it wasnt too crowded and while it wasnt sunny, with the exception of the one cloud visibility wasnt bad. We will try the off piste routes off of Mont Bianco tomorrow and La Thuille Friday.
 
Coverage was not the issue, plenty of snow. There was a valley cloud that just hung around all day and the humidity seemed to crush the snow. At high elevation was still heavy, by the lower elevations of the lifts it was not enjoyable. Our guide was knowledgeable and tried every exposure we could possibly find. Eventually we just decided staying on piste was more tolerable. Had several good runs on piste, it wasnt too crowded and while it wasnt sunny, with the exception of the one cloud visibility wasnt bad. We will try the off piste routes off of Mont Bianco tomorrow and La Thuille Friday.

A one of the sites were talking about a Wednesday warmup - specifically We Powder. OpenSnow is so vague about historical snowfall and forecasts - I think they are borderline useless. (Discuss with them).

Pesonally, I think WePowder is nailing it!

From 2 days ago.... seems to be what is occurring according to @skiandgolfnut:


PA#11: The second snow dump for the southern Alps​


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It’s the second snow dump within a week in the southern Alps. We will see sustained snowfall through Wednesday, but with a rising snowline. It also gets warmer quickly after that, which doesn’t make it easier for the powder search. Due to mediocre internet on the road, it will be a more concise weather update, but hopefully with the most important details.

A brief overview​

Brief synoptic overview: a strong low-pressure area over France is currently following a course towards the Alps. In the process, moist air is being pushed against the Alps, which of course results in a nice fresh layer of snow. Last night, snow started to fall in the French Alps and the snowfall also spread to the Italian side rather quickly. In the coming hours/days, the south-western Alps will benefit fully with a retour d’Est due to the formation of a Genoa Low. What does this mean? First check out the background article on the retour d’Est.
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Genoa Low (DWD)

First France, now Italy​

Most of this snow in France has already fallen. According to forecasts on Sunday evening, 20 to locally 30 centimetres south of the Grenoble - Maurienne Valley line at a snowline of around 1,000 to 1,200 metres would be possible, and most nivoses indicate around 20 centimetres fresh. Especially in the southern areas, some additional snow is also falling today, but meanwhile the snowfall is moving to Italy, in the western half to be precise.
The snow will fall at a snowline of around 1,000 to 1,200 metres, sometimes even significantly lower today, but also slightly higher on Tuesday. Large accumulations will be seen in the Alpes-Maritimes/Alpi Marittime in areas such as Prato Nevoso and Limone. Over a metre of snow could fall here, but an important detail to know is that the season so far has been very moderate with (almost) no base to quite high altitudes. This is also true in many other areas in Piedmont. Furthermore, the Italian Alps from from Piedmont to the southern Dolomites can expect well over 50 centimetres of snow until Tuesday evening, in some stau areas also considerably more, further north towards the Alpine main ridge less. For the Dolomites, it will snow solidly especially on Tuesday. Wednesday may see another bucket of snow in the areas, but with a side note.
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Radar image of the precipitation this morning (Meteoblue)
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It started snowing in Prali

Rising snowline​

The biggest but with this PA is the rising snowline in the southern Alps on Wednesday, as the cold air in the Po Valley is gnawed by the supply of warmer (but therefore moist) air masses during the snowfall. Precipitation cooling will allow narrow, deep, inner-alpine valleys to see a snowline to quite low for longer, but it seems inevitable that Wednesday’s snowline will creep up further. For now, I am assuming a snowline that could rise to 1,800 metres in many places during the day on Wednesday. Locally, as much as another 20 to maybe 50 centimetres of snow could fall above 2000 metres, which could make for seriously large total accumulations.

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So for powder, you will have to keep looking higher up, which could be especially tricky on Wednesday during the snowfall. In the areas close to the southern alpine edge, you will be in the wrong place, because there the snowline already rises faster in the night from Tuesday to Wednesday.
On Thursday it clears up in large parts of the southern Alps, but in the retour d’Est areas of Piemonte it could snow a bit longer in the morning. With temperatures of around 5 degrees at 1500 metres, it will be quite warm all over the southern Alps right away, see also in the maps below.

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Wednesday 12:00


In the following days it is likely to remain changeable with snow again for the southern Alps. A third dump seems possible, but not yet certain.
 
That's been my rap for years. Not having to change planes (for us living near big airports on the East Coast) counts significantly in my book: easier logistics, being able to sleep several hours on the plane, the high unlikelihood of luggage getting delayed, etc.

You are afraid of a non-stop flight to Portland, OR and possibly driving - stopping at Mt. Hood - and arriving in Bend / Mt. Bachelor.

It's the same as Newark-Zurich and going to St. Moritz. Great stops on the way to both.
 
Too bad the ladder is gone. These would be optimal conditions for the Toula Glacier off the Helbronner cable car - even if you could only ski to mid-station.

Our guide is trying to convince us that this can be done even without the ladder. He is pitching some sort of rope repelling or colouior. I have an aversion to heights and the last time I let a guide talk me into something I wound up on the West side of the Valluga in St Anton walking down some crazy ladder and nearly having a breakdown. Fall and die is not for me. Trying to gauge from youtube what the situation is, if too much I am happy to just try the Vallee Blanche side.

The wepowder forecast was spot on. In hindsight, with all the knowledge we had and needing to stay within 2.5 hours of both Milan and Geneva Im not sure there was a different move to make. So tricky to time these things. Cant complain though, the village here is as pretty as we have found in the Alps. A real treat to walk around in after skiing.
 
Our guide is trying to convince us that this can be done even without the ladder. He is pitching some sort of rope repelling or colouior. I have an aversion to heights and the last time I let a guide talk me into something I wound up on the West side of the Valluga in St Anton walking down some crazy ladder and nearly having a breakdown. Fall and die is not for me. Trying to gauge from youtube what the situation is, if too much I am happy to just try the Vallee Blanche side.

The wepowder forecast was spot on. In hindsight, with all the knowledge we had and needing to stay within 2.5 hours of both Milan and Geneva Im not sure there was a different move to make. So tricky to time these things. Cant complain though, the village here is as pretty as we have found in the Alps. A real treat to walk around in after skiing.

I think you did the best - I did not know you had been to St. Moritz and Zermatt, so it makes sense to try something new.

Would totally do it! The Toula Glacier. There will be no tracks, and the guides will not recommend it unless they want to do it, too! Be incredibly memorable.

Don't think you can ski to town/Courmayeur/Entreves (nor do you want to), and I would negotiate 2 trips up to the Toula Glacier.

I do not like heights - I am slightly uneasy on a balcony. But put me in a harness on a cliff with 2 backups, easy. You bounce down the cliff, push off, not hard.

I love the Vallee Blanche, but you miss some of the steeper other areas skiing from Courmayeur. But you will likely get some of the best powder from Courmayeur to the main route. But short.

Either will be quite good.

See some photos below - not too hard for what the ladders did.





On Sunday, we were going to get a guide and ski the Toula Glacier off of the Skyway Cable Car / Pointe Helbronner Here - however, there was an issue.
Toula Glacier - 2D View
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3D View
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There are (were?) 2 sets of stairs to descend to get to the Toula Glacier:
  • One to get off the Helbronner cable car top station. New and modern.
  • Second set to get on the Toula Glacier. Not so new - and a gap was forming as the glacier receded. The village of Courmayeur finally condemned the Toula stairs in 2019 since they could not guarantee their safety - and finally removed them in 2020.
So instead of getting a guide and splitting the cost among 4-6 skiers and simply doing stairs, you now have to rappel onto the Toula Glacier and the skier-to-guide ratio can only be 2:1 with a new price of 500 Euros. Yikes! Therefore, we bailed on the Toula Glacier. I might do it someday and add the Marbree Couloir - also accessed by the Skyway Cable Car....when Chamonix/Grand Montets gets its Cable Cars/Funitels back. From FATMAP:

The ladders which used to access the Toula Glacier are no longer in place. The run can still be accessed via an awkward set of rappels, or by skiing the shoulder of the Aiguille d'Entrêves, or via one of the very steep couloirs beneath the Pointe Helbronner. We have left this route description as it is because the ladders may be replaced one day, and because the lower part of the route description could still be useful to skiers.*

Pics of the now-gone stairs to the Toula Glacier. And a great trail report when the ladder existed Here
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Overall, I would return to Courmayeur again since it has easily accessible off-piste, Skyway cable car, good snow preservation in winter, closeby resorts (Chamonix, La Thuile, Aosta Valley), charming village, good food and relatively lower prices (vs. Switzerland/France).
 
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