Forum Group Ski Trips?

[Sbooker]

@Tony Crocker I understand the forum is on the smaller side and the participants are likely busy people but have you ever attempted to get a 'gathering' happening?
My second trip this coming winter will be solo so I'm going to attend the Snowheads forum End of Season bash in Val Thorens. I'll do a UCPA week in Tignes or Val Desire the week before.
I've never attended any organized ski meet ups. Sounds like a good idea to me although I understand differing tastes and needs may cause logistical issues.
Has anyone every done the UCPA thing? The course I plan on doing is restricted to 18 to 45s but I'm hoping a return email will confirm that they'll accept a pretty fit 51 year old.

UCPA Ski Tour Introduction - UCPA

Discover the world of ski touring. This original form of skiing is becoming increasingly popular as people seek out tranquillity and untouched powder

www.ucpa.co.uk

If they don't allow an oldie like me on the intro to ski touring course I'll have to do the off piste one.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The UCPA thing sounds a lot like my Club Med week in Val Thorens. Club Med's all inclusive per person price is as discussed before very expensive for family but a decent value solo, which is why I signed up for it originally in 2020.

Ski touring, like my Antarctic trip, should be tied much more to fitness than ski ability as you're spending 90+% of your day on the uphill.

To my knowledge there has never been an FTO "gathering." But numerous skiers I met online here first, then arranged to ski with IRL: Former admin in Utah, Patrick in Montana/Wyoming, then in Chile, EMSC in Colorado, tseeb in the Sierra, sbooker in Mammoth, ChrisC in Switzerland. The most elusive was James; first time skiing together was Serre Chevalier last January.

Sbooker probably knows about the EpicSki, now SkiTalk Gatherings. I attended six of those between 2011 and 2017 and guided at three of them. Tseeb still tries to attend many of those as it gives both him and his casual skiing wife compatible groups with which to ski and socialize. Liz attended three of those and was quite enthusiastic until EpicSki got shut down by Vail and I ran afoul of SkiTalk's supreme leader.

My favorite group events were the NASJA annual meetings, of which I attended 10 between 1999 and 2013. I had to be a qualified journalist to attend, but guests were allowed at the annual meetings, to which I brought Garry 3x, Adam twice and Liz for that last one in 2013. Prices were subsidized by the hosting resort, often there were excellent demos and occasionally an unusual perk like the Yellowstone Club in 2001. Total attendance during the heyday of those meetings was over 200.

As NASJA's print journalists and photographers aged out, the resorts became less interested in hosting us and there were no more annual meetings after the last two in the East in 2014 and 2015. NASJA encourages us to attend the Ski Hall of Fame Induction week but there is no subsidy and it's a fairly expensive event. Thus I saw only 7 NASJA members at Big Sky and there were no NASJA specific events there. I recommend Ski HOF Week to ski history aficionados like Patrick and Lonnie, perhaps EMSC.

Resorts still host small groups (max around 25 people) of NASJA members a couple of times per season. I've been to six of these, two after the annual meeting died. Guests are generally not permitted at these events.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Sbooker probably knows about the EpicSki, now SkiTalk Gatherings. I attended six of those between 2011 and 2017 and guided at three of them.

I have a bit of experience with ski forum meet-ups including Epicski gatherings during the forum's early days (I love digging up long-forgotten TRs):

• A mini gathering at Deer Valley in April 2002. We forget how novel this was back then: getting to know fellow enthusiasts online and meeting them in person, wow!
• LCC in January 2003: the one with a rain/hard freeze to the top of Alta and Snowbird, followed by a couple feet of snow, and the first time I skied with our former Admin, Marc G
• Epicski Academy at Stowe in December 2003: with a weekend of all-day lessons led by well-known instructor Stu Campbell
• Jackson Hole/Grand Targhee in February 2004: beautiful conditions

By 2005, Epicski had become quite popular but too much of a hardcore PSIA (Professional Ski Instructors of America) geekfest mired by tedious discussions of ski technique so I bailed to other forums, eventually landing at FTO around 2006, I believe.

In the early 2010s, a handful of us from Harv's site organized two events, the Northeast Ski Blogger Summit:
- Jay Peak in March 2011 (with extensive coverage by Patrick back when he was a prolific blogger!)
- Northern New Hampshire (one day each at Cannon, Attitash, Wildcat, and Bretton Woods

 

[Tony Crocker]

(I love digging up long-forgotten TRs)

I have all the URLs stored in my 259MB skilog spreadsheet, so...

Larry Schick informed me in January 1999 that I should join NASJA, particularly since the upcoming annual meeting was at Mammoth. Despite getting my snowfall analysis published in Powder Magazine in 1995, I had never been to a ski media event before. I was warmly welcomed by such luminaries as Dick Needham (for whose Inside Tracks newsletter I was writing) and Doug Pfeiffer. The icing on the cake was my best ever lift served powder day on April 9. I gave Dick Needham a local's tour of Mammoth the next day.

The 2000 NASJA annual was at Mt. Bachelor during Adam's spring break. The last 3 days of that trip had off the charts corn snow, and on one of them Adam and I skied a then record 43,900 vertical. The NASJA meetings were Wednesday-Sunday and typically you could get at a minimum lift ticket comps at regional areas earlier in the week. Adam and I skied Hood Meadows and Mt. Bailey snowcat ($100 media rate) before Bachelor.

2001 was at Big Sky, abbreviated TR in those days before digital cameras. Garry was my guest and we skied Jackson and Targhee on the way to Big Sky. The big perk was the final day at the Yellowstone Club, which was brand new and thus looking for some publicity.

2002 was at Banff. At the start of that week I skied 2 days at CHM Kootenay on my own dime but then skied an interesting day at Kicking Horse in its first season of operation. Banff had great conditions but nobody skied the final Sunday because it was -20C.

2003 was at Quebec City/Charlevoix in the historic Chateau Frontenac and Manoir Richelieu hotels. Quebec tourism even subsidized the airfare. I consulted our former admin, who said I should ski Stowe, Mad River and Jay before the meeting.

2004 was at the Peaks Hotel in Telluride, surely the most luxurious location I've experienced for such a meeting. Dazzled by the surroundings, I didn't then know to inquire about Bear Creek, which was surely stable after 3 weeks with no new snow. Before Telluride, former marketing director Susan Darch hosted Larry Schick, Adam, Garry and me in Aspen for 4 days. After Telluride Adam and I got to ski Silverton.

Also in 2004, NASJA offered an all inclusive week in Chamonix including airfare, half board and guides for $1,600. Even at antique digital resolution the pics from Grands Montets and Valle Blanche are impressive.

Needless to say after my first 6 years in NASJA I was blown away by the perks of membership. My ex had stopped skiing in 1997 and May 2004 was when she filed for divorce.

 

[Tony Crocker]

NASJA's good fortune had its first hiccup in 2005, when Coeur d'Alene was the host but a disastrous Northwest season closed Schweitzer a week before the meeting. However I was able to bail on short notice with no penalty. I did attend the Western Winter Summit at Heavenly, Sierra and ending with a 4 foot dump at Northstar.

The late March 2006 annual was billed as Fernie/Kimberley, but was in reality entirely at Kimberley with a daytrip to Fernie in drizzly weather. I was not there as I took Adam to the solar eclipse in Egypt instead. I went to the Western Winter Summit at Jackson, meeting Patrick there for an epic powder weekend.

In August 2006 NASJA offered an all inclusive week in Queenstown, NZ for $1,100 including airfare. I even got to bring Andrew as a guest. This trip had the best conditions I have seen in the Southern Hemisphere: Remarkables, Coronet Peak, Treble Cone, all good. I couldn't resist a day with Harris Mt. Heli at 1/3 discount.

The 2007 annual was at Crested Butte, the last one with big group of 200+ people. Skiing was restricted due to an extended drought but the meeting did not lack for lively entertainment. NASJA still had enough cred back then that I got comp lift tickets at Beaver Creek and Vail the two days after the CB meeting. I made an amusing comment that Vail's then $85 window ticket was expensive!

The 2008 annual was at Bretton Woods, which even FTO's eastern contingent disdained as a dull mountain, so I passed on that. In general very few western NASJA members would attend a meeting in the East. But the Western Winter Summit was at Whistler. I had a day at Mt. Baker before that.

The 2009 annual was at Lutsen with modest attendance of 70 people despite an attractive price of $200 for 4 days all inclusive. Historically the subsidized price for NASJA annuals was more like $400. Knowing that well traveled skiers would want more than skiing there, our hosts offered other activities like ice climbing, snowmobiling, and cross country skiing and snowshoeing on frozen rivers. Lutsen was also the meeting where I collected a Harold Hirsch Award for Internet Writing.

The 2010 annual meeting was awarded to Tamarack, which went bankrupt during the 2009 real estate crash. Ski Idaho cajoled Sun Valley to host the meeting, but this did not include half the meals so attendance was not much more than at Lutsen. I still thought Sun Valley was very worthwhile, with the Anton Suspension ski demo and a tour of the world class snowmaking facility. There was also a pretrip to Brundage and Bogus Basin.

 

[Sbooker]

The UCPA thing sounds a lot like my Club Med week in Val Thorens. Club Med's all inclusive per person price is as discussed before very expensive for family but a decent value solo, which is why I signed up for it originally in 2020.

USPA is a French government sponsored thing I believe and is designed to get young people to enjoy France's outdoors. It is strongly directed toward young people and is pretty modest compared to Club Med as far as accommodation goes. It is often dorm style and shared bathrooms. Should be interesting considering I'm an early to bed type..............

Sbooker probably knows about the EpicSki, now SkiTalk Gatherings.

I do. But I've never attended one of them as logistics are a bit difficult and my holidays have been restricted to January and April (school holidays) until recently. I haven't been on the Pugski/Ski Talk forum for yonks.

the one with a rain/hard freeze to the top of Alta and Snowbird

You got lucky hey? Surely rain to the top in January would be a extreme outlier?

Jackson Hole/Grand Targhee in February 2004: beautiful conditions

That's because it was February. Had it have been later than March 1 it would have been almost unskiable.

 

[Tony Crocker]

You got lucky hey? Surely rain to the top in January would be a extreme outlier?

The warmer Pacific storms are more likely in the front half of the season, November to January. But sustaining an 11,000 foot rain/snow line as far inland as Utah is indeed an extreme outlier. I doubt James met former admin MarcG on that 2003 trip because MarcG did not move to Utah until January 2005. I first met MarcG in person during 2005 Iron Blosam week.

Had it have been later than March 1 it would have been almost unskiable.

On the way to that Big Sky meeting in 2001 Garry and I got a dirt cheap night in Teton Village, comp tickets and a guide for half price. It was March 19 and we highly appreciated our guide for navigating the variable conditions.

 

[Tony Crocker]

NASJA's 2011 annual meeting was at Alyeska. It was poorly attended due to the high cost of air travel to Alaska and being a day shorter than usual. I went early as I had negotiated an attractive day-by-day arrangement with Chugach Powder Guides, likely due to my worthy FTO feature article from 2008 that was one of the three for which I won that Harold Hirsch Award. The heli terrain was wind hammered in 2011 so I was allowed to bail after two days.

NASJA's attraction to the resorts was in decline by now due to aging membership and emergence of online vs. print media. Thanks to long time connections of journalists Curtis Fong at South Tahoe and Bob Cox at Mammoth, those resorts hosted the final subsidized NASJA annual meetings in the West in 2012 and 2013. I did not attend Tahoe as its season started very badly and I made other plans that week. The Western Winter Summit was hosted by Red Mt. and Whitewater, and there was a post trip powderfest at Schweitzer. This was part of a one month road trip that included cat skiing at Mustang and Baldface. During that early March week of the NASJA annual I was enjoying my best ever journalist comp at White Grizzly Snowcat.

The 2013 annual meeting at Mammoth was NASJA's 50th anniversary. Attendance was 100 and Liz got to meet many of the people I had told her about from meetings since 1999. As mentioned before 2014 was at Killington and 2015 in Quebec and I did not attend. By this time NASJA had trouble getting any subsidies from western resorts other than "ski club rates." They offered this at Big Sky in 2016 and so few people signed up that it was cancelled. Starting in 2018 NASJA has been encouraging us to attend the Ski Hall of Fame Induction weeks but we get no price breaks. Thus we saw only 7 NASJA members last March at Big Sky.

Since 2013 the only NASJA events I have attended were the Northeast Weather Summit at Stratton in December 2018 and the 2021 Western Winter Summit in Ogden in January 2021, where we skied Snowbasin and Powder Mt. The Western Winter Summits are usually held in same time frame that Liz and I have been in the Alps most seasons since 2017.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

in those days before digital cameras

Here are my wife and I at Cannon during our first season of downhill skiing. Later that year, we bought a digital camera and helmets!

Quebec tourism even subsidized the airfare.

Similar to government agencies in France and Austria, Quebec Tourisme has always been helpful and generous. Twice they flew me on the nonstop from Newark to Quebec City and once they covered my rental car from NJ to the Laurentians. I see that United has finally reinstated the twice-daily Quebec City flight after suspending it at the beginning of COVID. I haven't been there since 2010; maybe I should consider it for the coming season.

I doubt James met former admin MarcG on that 2003 trip because MarcG did not move to Utah until January 2005.

I stand corrected. I confused him with a number of Utards I met through Epicski in the early 00s.

Jackson Hole/Grand Targhee in February 2004: beautiful conditions

That's because it was February. Had it have been later than March 1 it would have been almost unskiable.

Yes, that was the very beginning of February. Even before being acquainted with Tony, I was aware that mid-Feb is the point where Jackson Hole should never EVER be considered for a destination trip.

Separately, I'm shocked to see that The Hostel (previously known as Hostel X) lives on in Teton Village. I stayed there in the early 00s and could've sworn hearing or reading somewhere that it had been torn down years ago but that's apparently not the case. The convenience of lodging at the base is undeniable; however, we know that winter is JH's off-peak season and that you can almost always find reasonable hotel rates in town (far less expensive than at the Hostel these days).

 

[jimk]

Virtually all my current ski buddies are people I met through online ski forums. The original ski buddies of my youth all aged out of the sport. I led or participated in the annual regional ski gatherings of www.dcski.com people from 2008 - 2019. That tailed off when I started to do most of my skiing in Utah. I've been to many regional and national gatherings of EpicSki, PugSki, and SkiTalk in the last decade or so.

There's a rather nice dynamic that when you establish a cordial relationship with people over the internet it just continues when you meet them in real life. Despite all our individual differences, we have this one great love in common that tends to make everyone play nice together

The biggest perks in these type of gatherings is the camaraderie, and also that there's almost always some participating locals from the chosen venue who freely guide you around their mountain.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I was aware that mid-Feb is the point where Jackson Hole should never EVER be considered for a destination trip.

Actually the easy availability of lodging in town makes Jackson a good option for a flexible ski trip, where you go on short notice when it's good and bail if it's not without losing advance committed $$. "Climate is what you expect and weather is what you get." There have been years where it's dumped almost continuously in February and into early March. There have also been years with abnormal warmups in January.

There are two reasons for the fairly sharp mid-February demarcation line for advance planners.
1) While solar intensity increases gradually each week, mid-February is the typical time it starts breaking up Jackson's midwinter temperature inversions that prevent a melt/freeze of lower mountain snow.
2) President's Week should generally be avoided due to Jackson's somewhat inefficient lift system. While the lifts are being upgraded, skier visits are rising even faster.
Once you get past President's Week, the odds of melt/freeze are probably over 50% and get worse every week thereafter.

 

[Tony Crocker]

By 2005, Epicski had become quite popular but too much of a hardcore PSIA (Professional Ski Instructors of America) geekfest mired by tedious discussions of ski technique

I was barely aware of that niche and wasn't interested enough to read much of it. I spent most of my time in the "Resorts, Conditions and Travel" and some in "General Skiing." 2005 is the earliest I have record of being on EpicSki. That forum had 55,000 registered users and a few of them were from regions not represented much on FTO. I didn't have much problem concentrating on the signals that interested me and ignoring the noise. In dull moments some of the noise even had entertainment value. Many users appreciated my travel and snow experience. I had about 4,000 posts on Epic when Vail shut it down in May 2017.

There's a rather nice dynamic that when you establish a cordial relationship with people over the internet it just continues when you meet them in real life. Despite all our individual differences, we have this one great love in common that tends to make everyone play nice together

In person the vast majority of skiers play nice. Online, perhaps not so much. Forum moderation is a balance between free speech and civility. EpicSki did a decent job of it for such a huge forum IMHO. SkiTalk is an autocracy where the founding couple has 100% authority and is not bashful about wielding it. The wife's screen nickname is "The Velvet Hammer." Here's an example concerning a deleted thread (I was not involved in it). This level of censorship results in SkiTalk being less interesting than EpicSki was. The only aspect I miss over there is being able to connect easily with members who ski SoCal and Mammoth.

At some point SkiTalk had 10-15% of the registered users as EpicSki. However the in person Gatherings of average 75 attendees have continued with mostly the same people AFAIK, with only a 2021 COVID interruption. At each EpicSki Gathering through 2017, the next event site would be nominated by prospective organizers and then voted upon by those present. Since 2018 all Gathering locations are determined and run by the founding couple. I think Jimk has been an EpicSki Gathering organizer in the past, has continued to attend many of them and is listed as a "Team Gathermeister" still on SkiTalk. Jimk is welcome to correct and critique anything I've written here.

 

[Sbooker]

Actually the easy availability of lodging in town makes Jackson a good option for a flexible ski trip, where you go on short notice when it's good and bail if it's not without losing advance committed $$. "Climate is what you expect and weather is what you get." There have been years where it's dumped almost continuously in February and into early March. There have also been years with abnormal warmups in January.

There are two reasons for the fairly sharp mid-February demarcation line for advance planners.
1) While solar intensity increases gradually each week, mid-February is the typical time it starts breaking up Jackson's midwinter temperature inversions that prevent a melt/freeze of lower mountain snow.
2) President's Week should generally be avoided due to Jackson's somewhat inefficient lift system. While the lifts are being upgraded, skier visits are rising even faster.
Once you get past President's Week, the odds of melt/freeze are probably over 50% and get worse every week thereafter.

Skiers from Europe that aren’t off piste focused can still confidently book Jackson after your dates for the ultra reliable groomers, stunning scenery and stereotypical ‘Wild West’ town. It’s the American experience for a lot of foreigners.

 

[Sbooker]

I was not involved in it)

No fun. Can we see some of your spirited banter?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Skiers from Europe that aren’t off piste focused can still confidently book Jackson after your dates for the ultra reliable groomers

The groomers are more disproportionately south facing than the off piste. They are virtually guaranteed to be bulletproof in the early morning and slop in the afternoon on sunny days in March. The most sheltered areas at Jackson are off the Sublette and Thunder lifts, and nearly all of that is ungroomed and most of it fairly steep. So I disagree with that view for intermediates. I agree that grooming at Jackson has become excellent over the years, but intermediates need to be prepared for the January/early February cold weather if they want to enjoy those groomers in optimal packed powder mode.

 

[Sbooker]

^^^^
Aren’t they used to south facing terrain? It’s prevalent in Europe.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Aren’t they used to south facing terrain? It’s prevalent in Europe.

"Used to" doesn't mean desirable if you have a choice. The Alps are at 46-47 degrees latitude, which means midwinter sun is very weak and packed powder can preserve well at nearly all exposures. I also noticed temperature inversions at the lower Austrian areas we skied in January 2017.

Once you get past the school holidays into mid-March, I think there is a prevailing attitude in the Alps to avoid primarily low altitudes but secondarily bad exposures, as Fraser explains in his snow quality equation.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Back on topic:

My first EpicSki Gathering was based in Summit County, CO in early April 2011. I brought my terminal intermediate friend Richard along for the same reason Tseeb takes his wife to these events: guided groups at varied ability ranges. Overall I was probably about 75th percentile in ability/aggressiveness and only about 1/4 of the group sticks to groomers.

The 2011 Gathering organizer spends January and April in Breckenridge, so to no surprise I was impressed by his advanced tour. Richard was equally impressed by his intermediate tour on the other day at Breck.

Vail had mostly melt/freeze conditions due to lower altitude. Nonetheless I spent 3 hours hanging with a hard charging group led by a local instructor.

A-Basin had some wind challenges with lift closures but the Gathering set up a nice Beach scene on the final day of the week.

I was very impressed by this week. Those guides really knew their mountains well and it was a nice social event. Richard and I skied Loveland for the first time the next day with two other Gathering participants.

The 2012 Gathering was at Tahoe during the last week of February. The early season was extreme drought, and after the first major snow in late January, most of Tahoe had low tide refrozen conditions by the weekend before the Gathering. It started dumping during Day 1 at Alpine Meadows, and Tseeb took over guiding after the original guide fell hard on a newly buried rock.

That storm was predicted to be 3 inches and ended up 18. I skied mostly with Tseeb on the next two powderfest days, first at Mt. Rose including some demos, then at Northstar with another two feet of snow. I left Tahoe midweek and drove to Utah catching more powder when the storm got there. I then flew to Spokane for the White Grizzly snowcat trip and returned to Utah for Iron Blosam week.

For 2014 there was a tie vote between Utah and Mammoth. The Utah Gathering was in early February. I drove up with Adam, who was on his way to Jackson, then flew home midweek because Liz and I were leaving for Zermatt the upcoming weekend. Adam and I guided a large advanced group at Snowbird. Adam was able to split off and keep the hardest chargers happy.

The next day at Alta weather was bad and Adam, Tseeb and I decided to ski with one of MarcG's local friends rdwore. We did have lunch with the Epic group, which voted to have the 2015 Gathering in Jackson. It was Feb. 4 and two prior Gatherings had been in Jackson in that time frame, so seemed reasonable. There was some confusion due to the two Gatherings in 2014 and it was not clear whether we were voting only for the first one, with the second to be voted upon at Mammoth.

2014 was another tough Sierra year, but for the late March Mammoth Gathering the upper steeps were still good the first day, and it dumped enough for some powder skiing on the third day. I guided all 3 days at Mammoth. The last two days were relocated to Tahoe because Mammoth would not cooperate in setting up a place for the organizer's demos. The Alpine Meadows demo day was not as low tide as in 2012, but after few runs you were hitting the refrozen subsurface a lot.

After that I had some skepticism about the last day at Squaw/Palisades. KT-22 and virtually all of the lower mountain was threadbare and unskiable. But the lift layout allows you to stay on the upper mountain and there was some overnight wind resurfacing. Liz and I both got excellent tours by Tahoe resident Gathering guides.

The 2014 Utah Gathering had about 50 people and Mammoth maybe 35. Accordingly it was voted at Mammoth to revert to just one Gathering and to accept the choice of Jackson. A problem was that no one had volunteered to be the Jackson organizer. Eventually the 2011 organizer stepped up but he was not available until late February. Needless to say I objected and suggested a revote, but that was not allowed.

In 2012 the potentially disastrous Tahoe Gathering was saved by 4 feet of snow during the beginning of its week. 2015 was overall a very tough season for western skiing, so no such luck this time. Liz and I had excellent skiing at Jackson Jan. 21-24, 2015, but the first big warmup hit the weekend after that. Jackson had a refrozen subsurface the whole Gathering week. One day was scheduled at Targhee and many of the group opted for a second.

EpicSki/SkiTalk also has an end of season event at A-Basin in early May. Due to the bad season in California, we incorporated that into our 2015 plans. A-Basin delivered its spring powder, so our season ended on that high note.

The 2017 Gathering was at Whistler/Blackcomb, though it was the week before Iron Blosam so we could only attend the first half. We arrived the weekend before and took an Extremely Canadian clinic. I volunteered to be a guide at Whistler/Blackcomb after hearing that the 2016 Gathering at Aspen was short on guides. Whistler like Aspen was a new destination for the group and I knew that I would have current beta on conditions from the two days with Extremely Canadian.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

@Harvey, has NY Ski Forum ever had an official gathering or is it your yearly "I'll Buy You A Beer" birthday event at Plattekill?