I hear ya on the local ski days.. I'm 5 min from the lifts at MH, but have 3 times as many days at Mammoth so far this year, 5 hrs away, then I do here in Wrightwood. Now, MH is pulling their closing East crap again midweek, right when I usually kick it into high gear locally. :roll: Can't wait to get out of socal permanently. ](*,)
Mountain High: Saving $ or Drought Survival Mode?
- Thread starter snowave
- Start date
I've always assumed MH doesn't have enough water to sustain everything on snowmaking once SoCal goes into drought mode. So they use what they have to preserve the core runs and park at West, and let East take its natural course. I would assume that daily skier traffic on East would be bringing up the rocks by now, so maybe they squeeze an extra weekend or two by not running midweek. You live there, so feel free to correct my impression.snowave":17zw24yg said:
To some degree, you're right, Tony. But most of the time, this isn't about snow conditions alone.
MH has been pulling this crap off an on for a few years. They close East midweek, even with solid coverage, and cram everyone into West and save a few bills. They only did this for a couple weeks last year, so I thought it was getting better. They still have decent water supply at East, for Late January, and honestly, the coverage is still very good to excellent. It's been relatively cool the last week with low RH, so melting has been minimal for the dry warmer conditions we've had, and they have made snow a few nights at East.
As a midweek only season pass rider, the emphasis on "saving it for weekends", or claiming low business levels like they did the last 2 yrs infuriates me. MH, to my knowlegde, is a usually pretty close to, or in- the top 25 resort in skier visits in NA. (and last year was their biggest grossing winter on record) However, they have a huge complacent customer base. I have no desire this time of year to go to West. I'd rather stay home and drink beer.
p.s. MH also abruptly stopped the long tradition of night riding 7 nights a week last month. They are now closed on Mon and Tues nights.
MH has been pulling this crap off an on for a few years. They close East midweek, even with solid coverage, and cram everyone into West and save a few bills. They only did this for a couple weeks last year, so I thought it was getting better. They still have decent water supply at East, for Late January, and honestly, the coverage is still very good to excellent. It's been relatively cool the last week with low RH, so melting has been minimal for the dry warmer conditions we've had, and they have made snow a few nights at East.
As a midweek only season pass rider, the emphasis on "saving it for weekends", or claiming low business levels like they did the last 2 yrs infuriates me. MH, to my knowlegde, is a usually pretty close to, or in- the top 25 resort in skier visits in NA. (and last year was their biggest grossing winter on record) However, they have a huge complacent customer base. I have no desire this time of year to go to West. I'd rather stay home and drink beer.
p.s. MH also abruptly stopped the long tradition of night riding 7 nights a week last month. They are now closed on Mon and Tues nights.
Thanks for the update. In past years it seems that East goes into weekend only mode, then closes completely after 2 or 3 weeks of that. Seeing Waterman close, Baldy chair 4 close, MH East is usually the next to fold up when SoCal goes into a sustained dry spell. I would be surprised if the water sources for MH East and West are independent.
It seems likely that Big Bear will be the only worthwhile SoCal skiing in February.
It seems likely that Big Bear will be the only worthwhile SoCal skiing in February.
I've seen the reservoirs, but from where is that water pumped? I've heard wells, or even that it's trucked in. In survival mode MH will give snowmaking and other maintenance priority to West.
There are wells they are pumped from.
I realize they always prioritize west, but what they have often done in the past is close East, midweek in Jan-March, even with a good snowbase, and cram everyone into west. Last year, there were 10-15 min liftlines at West on a Tuesday in February when they closed down East to "low business levels", even though it sat there with a solid base.
While of course, the base right now is getting thinner, if it's OK enough to re-open it tomorrow for the weekend, it irks me that they don't keep it open while they can.. so I guess they are preserving it for their weekend crowd. :roll: They could be making more snow these nights, but I think they stopped altogether at East now in hopes of natural snow again to reboost the base.
I just think it's poor business etiquette, and from a season pass holder again, who can only ride Tuesday-Thursday, I don't think it's fair. I understand it's a business, but I think they cut too many corners for their profit, which affects people like me who again, dish out their money expecting a product they pay for, within reason of course.
There has been talk from alot of people about the wish for them to sell it, so someone could focus on it exclusively, instead of it being MH's bastard child, but that opens up a whole thought of possibilities, good and bad.
I realize they always prioritize west, but what they have often done in the past is close East, midweek in Jan-March, even with a good snowbase, and cram everyone into west. Last year, there were 10-15 min liftlines at West on a Tuesday in February when they closed down East to "low business levels", even though it sat there with a solid base.
While of course, the base right now is getting thinner, if it's OK enough to re-open it tomorrow for the weekend, it irks me that they don't keep it open while they can.. so I guess they are preserving it for their weekend crowd. :roll: They could be making more snow these nights, but I think they stopped altogether at East now in hopes of natural snow again to reboost the base.
I just think it's poor business etiquette, and from a season pass holder again, who can only ride Tuesday-Thursday, I don't think it's fair. I understand it's a business, but I think they cut too many corners for their profit, which affects people like me who again, dish out their money expecting a product they pay for, within reason of course.
There has been talk from alot of people about the wish for them to sell it, so someone could focus on it exclusively, instead of it being MH's bastard child, but that opens up a whole thought of possibilities, good and bad.
ShiftyRider
Member
USFS should deny their operating permit/plan, then make it available to a company more willing to embrace the USFS goal of providing outdoor recreation to the public.
ShiftyRider":1w8f706a said:
That idea was brought up to the agency winter sports use permit admin last year (USFS), and they largely agreed that might be the best situation for the consumer, but whether or not the legalities of making it happen are realistic (on several fronts), lead me to believe it's too complicated or not worth the effort by those that would/could make it happen. :?
Tom Moriarty
New member
Karl has taken over sole ownership of the MH operating company which has resulted in some cost cutting it looks like. CNL still owns the resort and it would be more likely for CNL to bring in a new operator for East than sell it. They could take it back to Holiday Hill (Tim Cohee bought Sierra Summit and took it back to China Peak and is having a great season). I don't see Karl giving it up though.
I don't see the USFS pulling a permit though as they seem to let Waterman operate weekends only, no Rentals, and no Food Service permit (a caterer?), and nothing being done at all to bring Kratka back up. How is the FS making any money with that deal.
I don't see the USFS pulling a permit though as they seem to let Waterman operate weekends only, no Rentals, and no Food Service permit (a caterer?), and nothing being done at all to bring Kratka back up. How is the FS making any money with that deal.
It is not realistic for for Mt. Waterman to operate more than 3 days a week with the business it gets. Nor does it make sense to invest the $ it would take to get Kratka up and running again.
With regard to Mountain High I realize I'm picky, but my criterion for going there is that both mountains be fully open. It would be less attractive to me if they were split up again. However, I'm a very occasional patron of Mt. High in any case. With SoCal's feast or famine seasons I use Baldy for the feast and Big Bear for the famine. There's very little in-between time when Mt. High makes sense for me.
With regard to Mountain High I realize I'm picky, but my criterion for going there is that both mountains be fully open. It would be less attractive to me if they were split up again. However, I'm a very occasional patron of Mt. High in any case. With SoCal's feast or famine seasons I use Baldy for the feast and Big Bear for the famine. There's very little in-between time when Mt. High makes sense for me.
Tom Moriarty
New member
Mt. Waterman and Kratka operated everyday for nearly 50 years and created nice livings for the Newcomb and Hensley families. Sure there were some lean years. They really need someone with a good investment to make it happen again and complete the snowmaking plans that both original owners were working on.
Mike Bernstein
New member
But for the vast majority of those 50 years, neither MH nor the Big Bear resorts had the snowmaking firepower they do now. Unfortunately, that seems to be where the market has shifted towards.Tom Moriarty":1xz5gc91 said:
fwiw, I took a stroll with my pups on Table Mtn, adjacent to the East Resort today, and had a great view of about 90% of the Resort. Although I realize the packed base is probably no more than 1-2+ ft, I saw no brown/bare spots on the primary runs of Goldrush and Wildcard. The base area is dirty and thinner, but I have it seen it look that way on the bottom with a 4 ft base. Sorry, had my camera, but not battery!
+1Mike Bernstein":3id7xz4a said:
30 years ago when snowmaking was not as advanced, Waterman/Kratka often could have the best SoCal conditions due to the most natural snow.
But the real reason is the huge shift in the SoCal skier/rider market. 30 years ago it was cool for the young athletic types to bash moguls on Emile's at Baldy or the face of Waterman. Now the younger SoCal generation is 75+% snowboarders and they want to hit the terrain parks. Terrain parks = big time snowmaking and other capital investments. I don't believe Waterman/Kratka has a water source to compete in that market. In weather like SoCal is currently having, Mt. High's water shortfall vs. Big Bear is glaringly evident.
SoCal Rider
New member
Which is why I am considering making the schlep to Snow Summit (free ticket) tomorrow despite 330 being on the DL. I reckon in this weather, it is easily 90 minutes extra RT vs Baldy. Ugh.
SoCal Rider
New member
The WW two-plankin' old-timers can't be pleased.
I will always have a soft spot for East, but I will never buy a pass there again — I'm a three-timer, but not in awhile — if this continues. (I'm sure that threat will change the mtn's MO instantly.)
I will always have a soft spot for East, but I will never buy a pass there again — I'm a three-timer, but not in awhile — if this continues. (I'm sure that threat will change the mtn's MO instantly.)
Tony Crocker":3ewowr1k said:
What weather? The shortage of snowfall? I read an article earlier this month quoting Karl saying that due to the December rain their reservoirs were full and the wells were producing plenty of water. They don't have a lake like Snow Summit and Bear Mountain, but the wells aren't dry either. The problem with Mountain High is that they don't have sufficient water to cover both east and west all season long when there is a lack of natural snowfall.
I'd like to second the fact that I think its ridiculous that they close East midweek when there is sufficient coverage. I don't reside in Orange County anymore, but many times I didn't go to Mountain High for this very reason. However, there is a significant cost to opening up East - base facilities, tickets, food & beverage, parking attendants, shuttles, patrol staff, trail maintenance, lift operations - so I can understand why if the numbers are way off it would be a poor business decision to open it. West would be a better mountain if they'd upgrade some more lifts (Chairs 1 & 2 and Chair 5) and expand snowmaking to more trails on Chair 5 (Conquest).
Tom, I think splitting the resort would be a huge mistake. Sierra Summit/China Peak is entirely different. Tim Cohee wouldn't be interested in Mountain High East as a stand-alone mountain. My understanding is that Holiday Hill was going broke as a stand alone ski area and they didn't have the capital to put in a significant snowmaking system.
Mountain High may be one of the busiest ski areas for skier visits, but a large percentage of those numbers come from passholders who pay next to nothing for their pass. I don't understand why Mountain High hasn't raised their pass price yet.