Where to Live, Part Deux, or How to Make the Best of It?

baldyskier

baldyskier

Member
The last 3 posts are pretty convincing arguments for Western skiing, but I guess I'm in the choir for this sermon. I moved to CA in 1981 and haven't looked back, especially as a skier.
I would like to see someone who has moved from East to West and skied out here for awhile try (with a "straight face") to extol all of the virtues of East vs. West.
I think only those who still live in the East attempt to compare average Eastern ski conditions favorably with average ski conditions in the West.
 
Thanks, everyone, for the information and advice on our trip to Park City. I think I will probably rent a vehicle in case we decide to ski one of the other areas beside Park City, Deer Valley, or the Canyons. I still haven't decided on what condo to rent but I plan to make that decision in the next month or so. I am already looking forward to (hopefully) better ski conditions than what we typically get in the East. I skied every weekend this winter in the East (once "winter" actually began out here in mid to late January) and I would say that I had only two days of good snow conditions all winter long - one day after the Valentine's Day snowstorm and one day after the March snowstorm. One of the problems, I find, with Eastern skiing is that, even after a snowstorm, most of the trails at the ski areas tend to get "skied off" very fast because of limited terrain and because the base is usually solid ice from all of the early season snowmaking that the ski areas do. If lucky, you might get a few hours of good conditions first thing in the morning and then it's time to quit. I'm hoping for more consistent powder conditions in Utah.
 
baldyskier":umkm8zcn said:
The last 3 posts are pretty convincing arguments for Western skiing, but I guess I'm in the choir for this sermon. I moved to CA in 1981 and haven't looked back, especially as a skier.
I would like to see someone who has moved from East to West and skied out here for awhile try (with a "straight face") to extol all of the virtues of East vs. West.
I think only those who still live in the East attempt to compare average Eastern ski conditions favorably with average ski conditions in the West.
Click to expand...

How many powder days did you get at Baldy this season?
 
As the one who incites the most controversy on this subject, I'll recap my slightly revised opinions, and even defend the easterners some:

1) East vs. West depends upon where in the East vs. where in the West. IMHO it's laughable to compare anyplace in the East to well located westerners like admin and Larry Schick.
2) For baldyskier, SoCal Rider and I the discussion becomes more complex. I love Baldy's terrain (comparable to the best in the East) as much as anyone, but I do not ski there at all in about 1/3 of seasons due to lack of snow. Mad River Glen (close analogy to Baldy in terms of terrain, facilities, ambience, minimal snowmaking) never has a total wipeout season like Baldy had this year. There is no question in my mind that those within daytrip distance of the best eastern areas are better off than what we have at the SoCal locals.
3) Our advantage in L.A. comes mainly from the weekend trips to Mammoth, which has vast advantages in scale, terrain variety, snow conditions and length of season over anything in the East. We're also within long weekend distance from Tahoe, and weeklong drive distance to Utah and some other areas in the Rockies.
4) I now believe that the well placed easterners (to me that means north and east of Albany in the U.S. plus metro Montreal) are comparable to Sunbelt westerners, and probably better in terms of short notice powder. Once you get to SF Bay Area or Las Vegas (6 Interstate hours from SLC) and farther north, then in terms of skiing I think you're better off than anywhere in the East.

I think only those who still live in the East attempt to compare average Eastern ski conditions favorably with average ski conditions in the West.
Click to expand...
I skied every weekend this winter in the East (once "winter" actually began out here in mid to late January) and I would say that I had only two days of good snow conditions all winter long
Click to expand...
These quotes don't surprise me and I'm inclined to agree with them, but the key words are "average" and "every weekend." Based upon averages Berkshire Skier's Utah trip and my weekends at Mammoth are likely to be much more satisfying than a typical eastern ski weekend. But for skiing within day commute distance why settle for "average?'' There have been 19 days this season where Riverc0il did a whole lot better. Berkshire Skier lives at the edge of the favored eastern ski region, and could improve his batting average a lot by following powderfreak's reports.
 
Thanks for the input, Tony. I agree with you that I could improve my overall skiing experience in the East by being more flexible (in terms of travel) by going farther north for day or weekend trips to take advantage of better snow conditions in mid to northern Vermont. I do occasionally make some day trips to Stratton in southern Vermont. However, there are a few reasons that I don't make as many trips as I used to. First, the local "mountain" - Ski Butternut (formerly Butternut Basin) offers season passes for $199 each for me and my wife and $169 for my ten-year old daughter. It's hard to beat that price for a season of skiing, especially considering that the bigger ski areas in Vermont are charging $70 to $80 per day for weekend skiing. Second, my daughter participates in a race program at the local mountain that runs every Saturday and Sunday and she doesn't like to miss her program. Third, when you add up the cost of a weekend of skiing in Vermont for lift tickets, lodging, food, and other expenses, two or three trips can easily add up to what a week of skiing in Utah or Colorado or Jackson Hole would cost. I'd rather save the money and ski out West for a week rather than have a few weekends in Vermont. My experience at the bigger ski areas in Vermont (or New Hampshire) is that the weekends are always very crowded, usually with mediocre snow conditions (even after a storm because the trails get skied off so fast). Fourth, a day trip to Killington or Stowe is at least a three to four hour drive for me, so it's not all that realistic for day trips. I'm past the age where I want to get up at 4:30 AM to drive three and a half hours to ski with 10,000 other people from New York. So, the bottom line is that I now ski almost exclusively at the local mountain and put up with mediocre snow conditions and skiing. I am looking forward to the trip out West next year.
 
I think Berkshire Skier has reinforced the original points I've made about most eastern skiers. He's as least as well situated as the Boston metro area, yet considers 3-4 hours an unacceptable distance for daytrip skiing. In this situation, and especially for NYC and MASH skiers who are even farther away, it makes sense to allocate more time and $ to western destination trips. It takes either a better location or more stamina to get consistent quality out of eastern skiing.
 
Not to totally hijack the thread but going off what Tony said: I've been snowboarding in SoCal for five seasons (65 days) and have become a little bored, especially with Baldy and Mountain High East rarely satisfiably open and given that I'm not much of a park rider, and don't like driving 90-120 minutes when it's hard pack.

My family situation makes it difficult to travel 6-7 hours to Mammoth. We recently resumed our occassional discussion about moving. For me, of course, a key goal is to be closer to riding and better conditions. But I head a party of five, so I can't play ski bum in Breck or Park City for a couple years. I believe Tony in another thread chose Seattle as metro No. 1 for a skier, but SLC seems tops to me (maybe it's the FTO trip reports). Those two areas are on my short list, which also includes Portland OR, Denver, Reno, Boise and smaller Oregon areas such as Salem and Bend. Maybe Missoula, too. Some places I've been to, some I have not. I didn't throw any Eastern areas into the hat, so I guess I'm still a Western snob despite my penchant for playing devil's advocate. Of course, snowboarding isn't the only consideration in moving 3,000 miles from the only place I've known.

I work in an industry that has a presence in every market of the country, but the advertised job openings are usually pretty limited (to nil), not to mention $ considerations coming from San Diego.

I wish the snow commute in Denver was considerably shorter than what I do now (60-70 miles to Loveland?), but the snow is obviously better. Bend seems like a really cool place if single or no kids and working nights. If this topic hasn't been beaten to death elsewhere, feel free to chime in. Any areas that I'm missing?

BTW, I, too, might have been heading to Park City in February, but I have a brother moving to Tahoe and friends to Reno soon, so maybe I'll start a "where should I ride?" thread closer to 02/08.
 
The threads that have covered the subject most thoroughly are:
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=1017 and
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=2352 .

For convenience from the first thread:
When Marc was considering his move west, I sent him the following rank of metro areas purely based upon skiing:
1. SLC
2. Reno
3. Vancouver
4. Seattle
5. Denver
6. Sacramento
7. Portland
8. Spokane
9. Calgary
10. San Francisco, with east of the bay much preferred
11. Albuquerque
12. Las Vegas
13. L.A., with inland areas much preferred to coastal
14. San Diego
15. Phoenix
In the east Montreal is #1 no contest. I would put Montreal between L.A. and San Diego on the above list. Marc slotted Montreal between Albuquerque and Vegas. No other eastern metro area would crack this list IMHO.
Click to expand...

Interestingly SoCal Rider is in the camp that values daytrip much over weekend, and would thus prefer Montreal over L.A. in the debate in the first thread. But the top 10 on the above list are way better than Montreal.
 
Tony Crocker":1sivlh3b said:
I think Berkshire Skier has reinforced the original points I've made about most eastern skiers. It takes either a better location or more stamina to get consistent quality out of eastern skiing.
Click to expand...

The constant wah wah wah from self-hating easterners -- a breed that I thought was more prevalent at Epicski -- is a real stoke killer.

I live 20 minutes west of NYC, hardly a plum location for skiing, and with a two-year-old around, I don't have the flexibility to stormchase, drive long distances at the drop of a hat, or rack up a 50-day year. I did not ski once in the east before mid-January, yet I've managed to score six powder days out of 14 ski days here without stepping foot in northern New England. If the computer models for my Sugarbush/Jay trip tomorrow and Thursday pan out, that will put me at a .500 batting average.

I'm curious where Berkshire Skier goes when he's not at his hometown hill. His descriptions of totally skied off conditions -- even after a powder day -- make me think that he's spending weekends at usual suspect destination joints (Killington, Mt. Snow, fill in the blank) rather than off-the-beaten-path places.

Although I do make destination trips out west or to Europe at least twice a season, I refuse to base my happiness as a skier around these trips -- which are not guaranteed powder fests either. No matter how much I'm browbeat by Tony and his book of averages (and I don't doubt his accuracy), I have no plans to move back to the Rockies -- been there, done that, got bored by the strip malls -- and I WILL NOT move to Seattle. So where does that leave me?

Even if you're not an EC rock star like riverCoil, it ain't rocket science -- pay attention to the forecasts, stockpile your weekday vacations for the winter, and for chrissake, choose a place that isn't bolloxed up with the very people you're trying to avoid.
 
Thanks, Tony. I will check those out. I'm not one for flogging corpses and, no, I ain't gonna start a "where in Tahoe" thread. Squaw, Alpine and Northstar if stormy; duh. Homewood If I want to be contrarian. Hell, Kirkwood if we have time and feel like cruising (in the car). My brother will be in or around Truckee.
 
I do favor daytrips, albeit realizing that that favors quantity over quality. I only have two days at Mammoth, from one visit. I have done three fly-outs: Tahoe (but as first-timer), Hood/Portland and Summit/Eagle. Utah or Whistler would be next, but it's hard to ignore family and friends who will have both moved to or near Tahoe, which I haven't experienced as a blue/black rider.

My last two winters have been marked by a birth and a pregnancy, respectively (not mine, but I know the woman quite well :lol:). So now I am waiting for my three kids to age and want to pick up Dad's neato activity.
 
If you end up in Truckee and post here regularly, the envy inspired by your reports will likely be exceeded only by admin's.
 
Tony Crocker":2n7pmavw said:
If you end up in Truckee and post here regularly, the envy inspired by your reports will likely be exceeded only by admin's.
Click to expand...

Definitely jealous of my brother; his Tahoe v2.0 is for a "real job," too. I look forward to posting a dynamite trip report in February. The thought of living near or next to the mountain sounds great. Ideally, I'd love 60 minutes or less, but I also appreciate what cities have to offer (from concerts and local music scenes to architecture and "arty" neigborhoods etc.). That's why Portland and Seattle are attractive to me, although housing (growth?) in those places has shot up. The anywhere, USA, sprawl of Denver metro is not attractive to me, but Boulder, where I've spent an afternoon, and Ft. Collins seem nice. However, Ft. Collins' snow commute looks to be comparable to Bear/Baldy/High but for superior snow and more/better terrain.

I loved Boise when I lived there one summer, and Bogus Basin is fairly big and close. I wonder what RT to SLC costs from there?
 
The latter half of this thread's Subject is precisely how to work your skiing if the former section of the thread is not open for debate. As Tony pointed out, nothing here in the East can compare with the best locations of the West. But dedication, a little research, and willingness to be flexible and ski the areas that get the best snow can "make the best" of a region that is not ideal for big powder but sure has a lot to offer when you can capitalize.

Tony makes special note of something very important, the "average" skier. The average skier doesn't make the best of anything to be quite frank, but is quite content with hitting their favorites regardless of condition. I used to be in this category, so I am not making fun or taking a cheap shot. The average skier is the bread and butter of the industry while I am going to have a 50-60 day ski season with a 30-40% powder percentage for less than the price of a two person one week trip to Utah. Clearly as Tony points out, the "average" Eastern skier could probably best "play the odds" in their favor by booking a trip to the more favorable regions of the country. Whereas the dedicated skier can make the best of it by knocking off mid-week powder days on short notice and day tripping to the best powder locations.

So making the best of it depends upon your approach and dedication to the activity and your tolerances. It takes a different approach depending upon your needs, desires, odds, etc.

In regards to the first half of the Subject, I will deffer to Tony's expert opinion on Continental US City locations. However, I can say from personal experience that in general, having a lot of different options within a nearby day trip range (especially within a region that differs by snowfall measurements in the feet within only a few dozen miles) has its benefits. Of course, living away from the city and closer to the mountains also has huge benefits if a mountainous city region does not appeal. But employment, entertainment, lifestyle, and family sacrifices may become issues. Lots of options and no one solution is best for everyone.
 
SoCal Rider":2ilj1m3j said:
I loved Boise when I lived there one summer, and Bogus Basin is fairly big and close. I wonder what RT to SLC costs from there?
Click to expand...
Boise -> SLC is about a 5 hr. drive. Flights are about an hour and ~$175 r.t.
 
I've never collected data from there, but my impression is that Bogus does not get an abundance of natural snow. Brundage and Tamarack probably get more, but they are 2-3 hours away I think.

As usual, Riverc0il's comments above make a lot of sense. We here on FTO are fanatics, and willing to put a lot of effort into getting the most out of both day and destination trips. In my early days of skiing, the "average" young L.A. skier joined a ski club, had 4-5 weekend bus trips to Mammoth (scheduled far in advance) each season and enjoyed consistently great skiing at a reasonable price. This was what my ex-wife did, and I met her as a guest on one of those trips in 1982. The ski-club-bus-to-Mammoth market in SoCal is only about 20% as large now as 25 years ago, my guess due to rising cost issues and changing demographics.

having a lot of different options within a nearby day trip range
Click to expand...
I agree with this one too, and after this season see this point as one of the East's advantages over SoCal. It's also the reason to rate SLC, Tahoe and Denver over places near just a few good areas. Seattle is the exception to this rule because the Crystal controlled backcountry is such an extraordinary powder resource, and when the weekend area is Whistler, that's 3 or 4 normal ski areas worth of variety in one place.
 
Tony Crocker":xvoxnqhb said:
As the one who incites the most controversy on this subject, I'll recap my slightly revised opinions, and even defend the easterners some:

1) East vs. West depends upon where in the East vs. where in the West. IMHO it's laughable to compare anyplace in the East to well located westerners like admin and Larry Schick.
Click to expand...

Apples and Oranges. These are both different, not superior or inferior, but different. I like what James has to say on the subject...

james deluxe":xvoxnqhb said:
The constant wah wah wah from self-hating easterners -- a breed that I thought was more prevalent at Epicski -- is a real stoke killer.
Click to expand...

:-({|=

Tony Crocker":xvoxnqhb said:
4) I now believe that the well placed easterners (to me that means north and east of Albany in the U.S. plus metro Montreal) are comparable to Sunbelt westerners, and probably better in terms of short notice powder. Once you get to SF Bay Area or Las Vegas (6 Interstate hours from SLC) and farther north, then in terms of skiing I think you're better off than anywhere in the East.
Click to expand...

You're crazy Tony. #-o ](*,)

Tony Crocker":xvoxnqhb said:
1. SLC
2. Reno
3. Vancouver
4. Seattle
5. Denver
6. Sacramento
7. Portland
8. Spokane
9. Calgary
10. San Francisco, with east of the bay much preferred
11. Albuquerque
12. Las Vegas
13. L.A., with inland areas much preferred to coastal
14. San Diego
15. Phoenix
In the east Montreal is #1 no contest. I would put Montreal between L.A. and San Diego on the above list. Marc slotted Montreal between Albuquerque and Vegas. No other eastern metro area would crack this list IMHO.
Click to expand...

Montreal is in the Top10. This past weekend I spoke to some well travelled skiers and some would place Quebec City pretty high also (porbably higher than MTL). The big difference in this list, is that when you're in place like LA or any other from the Sunbelt is that your day drive areas are pretty limited (areas or/and weather if it's bad). LA to Mammoth is 5 hours. That isn't what I would call a convient location.

My friend Natalie who doesn't like Ski Forums (I believe that River noticed that) was mentioning that the skiing she did this weekend (Jay and MRG) was equalled to the best she skied in the West. For those who would doubt Natalie's track record, she been to locations like Western Canada, Utah, Alps, Chili (twice) and New Zealand.

I'm personnally don't mind a long drive from now and then, however Ottawa has 4 areas within 25 miles from downtown. These small mole hills (700') have produced World Cup, World Championship and Olympic Medals winners. Most of the people that ski here, don't even find it limiting and our entirely satisfied by spending the entire Winter here regardless of their abilities. The advantages about Ottawa and Quebec City over Montreal is that ski hills are much closer, however I concede that the quality close to Quebec are much better. Montreal's advantages over these two is that within a day trip (3hr) plus having a ton of close areas in different snow zones. You can access some of the best skiing the East can offer.

Tony Crocker":xvoxnqhb said:
Interestingly SoCal Rider is in the camp that values daytrip much over weekend, and would thus prefer Montreal over L.A. in the debate in the first thread. But the top 10 on the above list are way better than Montreal.
Click to expand...

Damn right...:roll: ](*,)
 
Patrick and I are coming closer to defining what's important and where to "agree to disagree."

I think we can agree that SF(#10) beats the best of the East at 3-4 hours from one of the top 3 concentrations of skiing in North America.

New Mexico is a special case. Taos is a first class area, but it's 2+ hours from the population centers and the next best areas (Santa Fe and Apache) are not even in the Baldy/Stowe class terrain wise IMHO. After that, it's weekend minimum distance to big (or more reliable) areas in Colorado.

The rest of the Sunbelt turns on the relative value of daytrip vs. weekend, and here Patrick and I have opposite views. It's easy for me to understand Riverc0il's opinion since he puts most of his value on powder, and I agree daytrip is more important for that. Natalie's comments were not a function of how good an area Jay Peak is, but due to the fact they she could arrange to be there on a perfect powder day.

Patrick, by both his statements and his ski track record (not that many of the eastern powder days of the past 2 months), enjoys the broad diversity of ski experience. If that's true I don't really see how you can compare the daytrips to Ottawa molehills to an average 6 month season at a world-class mountain like Mammoth. Patrick is basing that opinion exclusively on cost, because we already know that if cost were not an issue, his skier days would be distributed 40% Europe, 40% West and 20% East.

Quebec City is probably second to Montreal in the East, but based upon the terrain I saw in 2003, snowfall and most importantly admin's opinion that the 3 areas I skied in Vermont (Stowe, MRG and Jay) were "better than anything in Quebec," I was not inclined to rate it vs.the western cities. It's probably better than the bottom couple, perhaps based upon some areas I didn't see, like Massif du Sud and Valinouet. I've read enough FTO reports from Boston based skiers not to change my opinion there. The vicissitudes of Arizona Snowbowl have led me to devalue Phoenix some. If Snowbowl isn't open, it's 7-8 hours drive to "real skiing" at Durango or Telluride.

Revised metro area list for all of North America, assuming slightly higher weight to daytrip than my own track record (5:3 ratio of my lifetime Mammoth skiing to SoCal local vs. actual skier visit ratio close to 1:1):
1. SLC
2. Reno
3. Vancouver
4. Seattle
5. Denver
6. Sacramento
7. Portland
8. Spokane
9. Calgary
10. San Francisco, with east of the bay much preferred
11. Montreal
12. Albuquerque
13. Las Vegas
14. L.A., with inland areas much preferred to coastal
15. Quebec City
16. San Diego
17. Boston
18. Phoenix
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top