Mt. Baldy, May 1, 2010

Getting regular reports through April from Garry Klassen, I figured it would be worth one last shot at Mt. Baldy if weather was cooperative. April has been cooler than usual with about 6 inches fresh snow each of the first 3 weeks, so Garry has been typically going up there about noon or 1PM to ski afternoons when Thunder softens up. Skiing on Chairs 1 and 4 burned off by the end of the warm and dry March.

This week's storm brought no precipitation to SoCal, but it's been clear since Thursday, which also had a lot of wind. Each day since has been a bit warmer so Saturday looked very promising. The morning was still breezy in the Notch area and I did not get to the top of Thunder until 10:45AM. The groomers were softened about right then although most of the ungroomed was on the firmer side of ideal until noon, when Garry arrived. Cover on the core area of Thunder is still quite good:


For the first hour and a half I stuck to the main groomers Bonanza, Robin's and Skyline, with minor variations to test how the ungroomed was progressing. The lower sections of Robin's and Bonanza had narrowed a bit but were decently maintained with the upgraded grooming. Skyline had wall-to-wall cover with no thin spots. Some of the Baldy locals ascribe this to the base laid down early season by the beefed-up snowmaking. I had some skepticism about conditions and thus used my new "rock skis," Atomic 10.20's vintage 1999, which Al Solish was going to throw out after one of the tails split. But I got Garry to put a couple screws in there to keep them going. They are 109 at the tip and 68 underfoot, skinny by today's standards. Early in the day the tips would be deflected some by clumps of heavy spring snow but I was able to avoid most of those as the day wore on.

I forgot my camera but fortunately Garry brought his. Here I am on Skyline shortly after Garry arrived:


Our first off trail run was Liftline:


Not a lot of people there (only upper lot close to full), and mostly Baldy regulars as Garry seemed to know about half of them. This family was relaxing at the top of Thunder:


By 1PM pretty much everything off-trail with skier packing was fair game. I looked over the edge at South Bowl, but it was suncupped as it hadn't been skied for awhile, probably because much traverse back is burned off. However we did ski Tube, which had a great skier packed line of corn down its skier's left ridge:

I don't know who this is, but it's a better pic than the one Garry took of me farther down.

They managed to get a groomer up Goldridge, so here I am skiing that:


Unfortunately Garry did not get a pic of the bumps in Emile's, which would have kept joegm happy for several hours. They were big but decently spaced and very forgiving from 1PM onwards. In the afternoon we were using the Toilet Bowl entry to Robin's which had good corn and was less chewed up by morning traffic than Shortcut. Here I'm in lower Robin's:


I left Thunder at 3:10 after skiing 19,600 but Garry skied to closing. Here's Skyline after I left:


And a small "Baldy cloud" made a late afternoon appearance:


It's a far cry from the current Utah powderfest or even Mammoth still in its spring prime, but Mt. Baldy was likely quite comparable to the recent Sugarloaf reports. And note to rfarren, it didn't take a spaceship to get there. I left my house after 9AM and was home by 5PM. Not too bad for May 1. This was a good but not huge snow season in SoCal, about 125% of normal. Mt. High West was open until May 2. Baldy and Snow Valley will be open tomorrow. Baldy will run May 7-9 while Snow Valley will decide day by day after tomorrow.

Thanks for the TR!

I don't know who this is

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Owner/Patrol Director Eric.

Owner/Patrol Director Eric.

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For whom the extensive slackcountry "Eric's" is named.

FYI I had Garry inquire of Eric about backside tours as in 1998. There have been a couple of private parties that have dropped a truck up Lytle Creek and arranged to be sent up Chair 4 at the end of the day to ski to it. They end up returning to Baldy's parking lot around 7PM after some hiking and a slow drive out. This is a lot of work compared to 1998, when the truck brought us back up the backside fire road to the Notch. Thus the 1998 skiing was timed to optimal midday corn and not at the end of the day when it would be past its prime.

Speaking of Eric in 1998 I believe those skiis he is on are from 1998. Good pics.

Tony Crocker":10ukxk5c said:

Owner/Patrol Director Eric.

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For whom the extensive slackcountry "Eric's" is named.

FYI I had Garry inquire of Eric about backside tours as in 1998. There have been a couple of private parties that have dropped a truck up Lytle Creek and arranged to be sent up Chair 4 at the end of the day to ski to it. They end up returning to Baldy's parking lot around 7PM after some hiking and a slow drive out. This is a lot of work compared to 1998, when the truck brought us back up the backside fire road to the Notch. Thus the 1998 skiing was timed to optimal midday corn and not at the end of the day when it would be past its prime.

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Any reasoning for the change?

Not related but that backside fire road appears to be an optimal slackcountry egress route for explorations off Ch. 4.

It's kind of a shame they still have the future expansion down to Lytle Creek still on the map. Given the information you received this winter, the chances of executing that expansion in a world in which they need to secure the permits all over again is practically nil. It's false advertising at worst and misleading at best.

Mike Bernstein":3r47fq1m said:

It's kind of a shame they still have the future expansion down to Lytle Creek still on the map. Given the information you received this winter, the chances of executing that expansion in a world in which they need to secure the permits all over again is practically nil. It's false advertising at worst and misleading at best.

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But false advertising and misleading snow reports are what set Baldy apart!

I don't have a problem with them keeping the proposed expansion in the public eye. if they get around to it they will need some noisy public support for it. While they are not ready to push for the expansion now, they would lead active opposition to locking up the area as wilderness in order to keep the option open for the future.

Staley":1p3szqj0 said:

But false advertising and misleading snow reports are what set Baldy apart!

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Tom Treaccar is cognizant of the need to change Baldy's image among the skiing public. Thus the cosmetic chair fixes, better grooming etc. I fully agree that misleading snow reports are a big part of the negative image and I plan to send him an e-mail on the subject.

The backside tour is a rare bonus in big years, mainly for insiders. I probably got lucky getting on one in optimal conditions in 1998. If they get closer to pushing for the expansion, that would be the time to put more effort into it to generate public interest. I don't think Tom Treaccar invested in Baldy out of altruism for the nutcase ski community on FTO. His first priority is getting revenue up, which as in most places means attracting a broader cross section of clients. So the snowmaking/grooming investment makes sense to make the place more intermediate friendly. I also have heard from a couple of people that the tubing park is a good revenue source. If we ever want to see the backside developed we should root for these strategies to work.

Tony
How about trying to get Tom Treaccar and maybe Ron Ellingson to post on this forum page the future plans for the next couple of years in regards to Baldys expansion weather it includes backside or upgrading existing lifts and things. That would be nice to hear from the main dudes.

Looks WORLDS better than what i skied on May 1st .... :stir: :stir: :stir: :stir: :stir:

M

Skidog":3u7bx9c2 said:

Looks WORLDS better than what i skied on May 1st .... :stir: :stir: :stir: :stir: :stir:

M

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Yeah, you got me all riled up. Grrr and stuff. I do plan a Baldy TR for May 8 that favorably compares my dirt-pockmarked hill to the Bird.

Tony Crocker":1b79n2xg said:

I don't have a problem with them keeping the proposed expansion in the public eye. if they get around to it they will need some noisy public support for it. While they are not ready to push for the expansion now, they would lead active opposition to locking up the area as wilderness in order to keep the option open for the future.

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I agree it's important to keep it in the public eye, but they are realistically a minimum of 10 years away from turning a single shovel of dirt once all of the approvals are secured and legal challenges overcome. Quite frankly, I'd be quite surprised if Tom Treaccar and his partners could afford such an expansion. The costs of fighting through the legal system as well as the federally mandated environmental studies will run well into the millions before a lift is purchased or tree cut down. Moreover, the terrain on that side doesn't lend itself to expanding the appeal of Baldy beyond the current expert skiing clientele. While I guess they might get a decent bump in visits due to the uniqueness of having a legit 2000' vertical face in SoCal and, importantly, much easier access via Lytle Creek Rd., I can't imagine that bump will be big enough to pay for the regulatory/legal costs, purchasing the lifts, and the snowmaking that will surely be required on the bottom 1/3 of that face.

Tony Crocker":1b79n2xg said:

Tom Treaccar is cognizant of the need to change Baldy's image among the skiing public. Thus the cosmetic chair fixes, better grooming etc. I fully agree that misleading snow reports are a big part of the negative image and I plan to send him an e-mail on the subject.

The backside tour is a rare bonus in big years, mainly for insiders. I probably got lucky getting on one in optimal conditions in 1998. If they get closer to pushing for the expansion, that would be the time to put more effort into it to generate public interest. I don't think Tom Treaccar invested in Baldy out of altruism for the nutcase ski community on FTO. His first priority is getting revenue up, which as in most places means attracting a broader cross section of clients. So the snowmaking/grooming investment makes sense to make the place more intermediate friendly. I also have heard from a couple of people that the tubing park is a good revenue source. If we ever want to see the backside developed we should root for these strategies to work.

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Given the costs referenced above, I think Treaccar would be well advised to pursue an alternative strategy. If I were him, I'd work on 4 fronts:

1) Intermediate access to the bottom of the mountain is sorely lacking. I'd continue to invest in snowmaking, with a particular focus on installing snowmaking along the Sugarpine run. With some minor re-grading at the top and in the middle crux, that run could support most intermediate skiers. Having that run open more reliably with snowmaking would be a game changer for Baldy, dramatically lengthening the season off Ch. 1 while lowering the bar for those of more modest abilities.

2) Replace Ch. 1 with a HSQ. That's the one spot on the current mtn where it would make sense. High speed lifts are easier to download on and that would benefit their summer and snow tubing business.

3) Invest in efforts to supplement the Cal-Trans/Mt. Baldy Village snow removal infrastructure. That access road is a junk show, and there's no reason it should be a sheet of ice after each storm blows through. I know there are difficult problems there with snow levels rising and falling, but surely this is something human ingenuity can overcome. I would imagine that salt is discouraged in a Natl Forest, but the status quo isn't acceptable. Maybe invest in a dedicated snow plow to keep things clear and clean?

4) Continued professionalization of their customer service process. That means more communication when there are avi and wind holds. More ticket takers who are there early on powder days. The website and trail maps are a joke. Long way to go here.

Believe it or not, the Web site used to be worse. I like your ideas, though. The expansion maps are more like historical documents at this point.

Regarding Mike's comments:

1) Given the altitude and exposure I think trying to make Sugarpine reliable would be a wasted effort. We're skiing Bentley's to the bottom long after Sugarpine is history due to the better exposure, one of the pieces of info that ought to be on an online trail report IMHO. I'd consider the chair 4 runs for snowmaking before Sugarpine. Also sunny, but at least at high altitude so snow could be made more often. And those are better runs for most intermediates than Sugarpine or even Robin's/Skyline for that matter.

2) They do want to increase capacity of chair 1. Not sure I'd spend the extra $ for high speed. The old chair 1 would be a good candidate for the backside.

3) Those of us who have been around a while know that snow removal has been greatly improved since ~1990. Anybody think we're going to get an increase in Caltrans' SoCal snow removal budget? The steep hairpin switchbacks above 5,000 feet are inherently difficult with snow on the road. An extensive road rebuild would be the only way to make it easier to get up there. That's one of the attractions of Lytle Creek, a straighter and more gradual grade from what I hear. Either of those road builds are big $$$ compared to putting a lift down the back.

4) Everyone wants this of course. Given the erratic seasonal hiring pattern it won't be easy. That's why I push cleaning up the phone/website reports. That can be one person's responsibility, simple to implement if management sets the right parameters. "Customer service" improvement covers the complete gamut of transient seasonal employees.

Tom said that an immediate push for expansion would be way too expensive. Part of this is that Mt. Baldy's checkered and amateurish reputation is more likely to engender skepticism from the Forest Service. He thinks they might be more cooperative down the road once Mt. Baldy has demonstrated more competence and has broader community support.

Tony Crocker":3mtq3y27 said:

Regarding Mike's comments:

1) Given the altitude and exposure I think trying to make Sugarpine reliable would be a wasted effort. We're skiing Bentley's to the bottom long after Sugarpine is history due to the better exposure, one of the pieces of info that ought to be on an online trail report IMHO. I'd consider the chair 4 runs for snowmaking before Sugarpine. Also sunny, but at least at high altitude so snow could be made more often. And those are better runs for most intermediates than Sugarpine or even Robin's/Skyline for that matter.

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Don't the Ch 4 runs already have snowmaking? They hold snow far longer than the trees in between, but perhaps that's just the effect of skier/groomer packing. Regardless, Sugarpine's exposure may not be ideal, but the upload/download scenario is a massive disincentive to a large contingent of skiers. I think the benefit of having that run open for an additional 30-60 days would be massive. Sure - in some years the relatively low elevation will preclude a serious effort to bury the trail, but man-made snow is pretty hardy and I think you'd be surprised with what they could do if they dedicated the budget to trying to get and keep that run open for longer most years.

2) They do want to increase capacity of chair 1. Not sure I'd spend the extra $ for high speed. The old chair 1 would be a good candidate for the backside.

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You're probably right about the high speed pice - that's an extra $3MM. Still, given their set-up with all critical services at mid-mountain (including tubing) and a significant summer business, I think that would actually be a big draw.

3) Those of us who have been around a while know that snow removal has been greatly improved since ~1990. Anybody think we're going to get an increase in Caltrans' SoCal snow removal budget? The steep hairpin switchbacks above 5,000 feet are inherently difficult with snow on the road. An extensive road rebuild would be the only way to make it easier to get up there. That's one of the attractions of Lytle Creek, a straighter and more gradual grade from what I hear. Either of those road builds are big $$$ compared to putting a lift down the back.

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I'm sure it's better than it has been, so perhaps we should just give thanks for the improvement, but it could be a LOT better. I'm not suggesting re-grading the road or anything - topography and economics rule that out. Just funding a dedicated sand/salt truck would be helpful and wouldn't cost much in the scheme of things. Whenever I drove up this winter at 7:00 after a storm, there was always a glaze of ice and some snow on the road once you hit the switchbacks. I find it hard to believe there's no economically palatable solution to mitigate that somewhat.

4) Everyone wants this of course. Given the erratic seasonal hiring pattern it won't be easy. That's why I push cleaning up the phone/website reports. That can be one person's responsibility, simple to implement if management sets the right parameters. "Customer service" improvement covers the complete gamut of transient seasonal employees.

Tom said that an immediate push for expansion would be way too expensive. Part of this is that Mt. Baldy's checkered and amateurish reputation is more likely to engender skepticism from the Forest Service. He thinks they might be more cooperative down the road once Mt. Baldy has demonstrated more competence and has broader community support.

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We've all seen how long expansion on NFS land can take even in skiing hot beds where the resorts are competent, well-funded and with long-term ties to the local ranger's office (Loon Mtn. - South Peak, Vail - Blue Sky Basin, Okemo - Jackson Gore, etc....). Baldy is none of those and the cost to complete a new EIS, fight the Sierra Club (and what will surely be the never before seen "Friends of Lytle Creek") in court for 10 years, upgrade Lytle Creek road, install lifts, install additional snowmaking, cut trails and put some sort of basic infrastructure at the base (ticket shack, bathrooms, etc..) would run into the tens of millions of dollars for a mountain that does 50,000 skier visits at most. I don't see it happening within any near or medium term time horizon. They are way better off focusing on making what they have better - Lord knows there's no shortage of possible upgrades. Then 10 years from now once those upgrades are in place and they have some momentum (and perhaps get to 100K skier visits on a sustained basis), only then should they even start thinking about Lytle Creek.

Forget the high speed quad. How about an effective ticket line. That thing is redunkulous. A couple of $8.50 employees and a couple of new windows ($125.00 at Home Depot) would be huge on the busy days.

BT

I see no evidence that snowmaking has ever been attempted on chair 4. This was the first year with the new reservoir and equipment; thus the first time Robin's and Skyline have been covered adequately on manmade. A couple of the locals commented that skiing on those runs was pretty decent before the first big dump 3rd week of January, first time I've ever heard that kind of comment.

Good point on the ticket line. That's another thing like the webpage reporting that's a relatively cheap fix addressing a prominent issue in Baldy's negative reputation. They did add one more ticket line this year on busy days.

Mike Bernstein has not been out here long enough. In about 1/3 of the past 35 seasons NOTHING has been skiable under chair 1 at ANY time during the season. If Baldy had a lot of water and could handle the chair 4 intermediate runs in addition to what they are doing now and still had more capacity, only then would I consider trying to do anything with Sugarpine. And frankly, when you see the snowmaking triage that goes on at Mountain High, I'd be more inclined to keep using any extra snowmaking capacity in dry years on the aforementioned runs to keep surfaces nice.

On busy powder days having an efficient ticket line does no good when chair 1 loads every other 1 or 2 chairs. Saw lines down to the parking lot more than once this year.

My impression is that upgrading chair 1 would be the likely next move once they have enough $. Makes sense with the tubing park, sightseers and downloading as well as the morning backup on busy days, as others have noted.