Which North American Skiers Should Ski in Europe?

[EMSC]

The scratchy lower mountain groomers (heavy snowmaking dependence, intense skier traffic) are a fact of life in the Alps if it hasn't snowed for a week or two.

Warning: potentially controversial opinion ahead

I keep saying that I've experienced and watched many Euro trips have conditions much like this report and your similar-ish last several days of Jan. The fresh snow earlier in your trip(s) was a 'nice surprise' in my anecdotal view of Euro skiing. I know Tony/others reiterate that snow is statistically more consistent over there than I espouse, but I consider these conditions or even a bit worse to be much more representative for lots, probably a majority, of trips across the pond. In my experience most of "Europe" (Alps/Pyrenees, etc...; not Scandinavia or poland/hungary that I have no idea on) gets biggish dumps or a series of concentrated big dumps then long multi-week stretches of nothing. Totally hit or miss, and far too often a big miss for many pre-planned trips (lets be honest that's what 90%+ of skiers do, is pre-plan their trips)...

Which leaves things like interesting food (not at all important to me personally) and superb scenery, but far too often meh-ish actual skiing that a majority of the time is either no better or often worse than just skiing in my own 'neighborhood'. Just my opinion of course, but certainly with the hassle factor and costs, some pretty big reasons to not bother heading that way for a ski trip very often for me personally. Thus I also claim all of that is a huge reason why Europe is not on the radar of many North American skiers who have shorter flights to usually better conditions with fewer hassles (though often even bigger costs).

Getting over to "Japow" sometime soon is much more interesting to me, though my annual guys trip may try a Euro trip of some kind (I think kinda unlikely to happen due to cost/cheap personalities, but maybe).

 

[Tony Crocker]

Percentage of my skiing by region through 2021-22 that is powder:

Southern California	6.3%​
Central California	5.6%​
Northern California	8.9%​
Colorado	7.7%​
Utah	12.8%​
Other U.S. Rockies	10.1%​
Interior Canada	39.9%​
Pacific Northwest	10.6%​
East of the Rockies	0.4%​
Southern Hemisphere	9.6%​
Europe	13.3%​
Asia	37.6%​
Total	12.2%​

The interior Canada number is so high because of all the cat and heli skiing. Japan deserves its reputation with a similar percentage even though it's all been lift served. Note that the Euro percentage is higher than any of the other regions and significantly higher than most of them. The reason as noted many times by James is lesser competition. See my Sestriere and Sauze d'Oulx reports for second and third day after storm powder that would be rare in lift served North America.

Snowfall overall in the Alps at mid elevations of ski areas is in the ballpark with Colorado. Volatility is higher though not as high as in the Sierra, which averages more than the Alps. All regions in both Europe and North America have microclimates with higher or lower snowfall. The best places in the Alps (Vorarlberg, Andermatt, Val d'Isere) are in the 350 to 400 inch range. I say probably because data records aren't that great and it's difficult to measure accurately above tree line.

Some of our success is due to flexible scheduling. But that scheduling is generally done about a week in advance and mainly to choose places with a decent snowpack and surface conditions. Flexible scheduling also works because the Alps are compact if you need to relocate. At similar latitudes the Alps from Geneva to the Dolomites would fit in Montana between Lookout Pass and Red Lodge.

The Alps are a stretch for working Americans in western North America due to disproportionate travel times, distances, costs and time change. I only had two one week trips to the Alps before retirement. But I still believe that Easterners, even if working, should probably split their destination trips fairly evenly between Europe and the West.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

far too often meh-ish actual skiing that a majority of the time is either no better or often worse than just skiing in my own 'neighborhood'.

Tony's powder percentage in Europe is better than Colorado, Utah, and Other U.S. Rockies, thus disproving your thesis.

 

[EMSC]

I did say my opinion would likely be controversial

It seems clearly better for day 2/3 powder/leftovers, when that occurs, but otherwise no better snow or surfaces than what for me are local areas or a simple days drive away (Utah, Jackson, etc...). I sure don't have much interest in the expense or hassle factors to ski Euro-land for the types of chalky and scrape-y groomer surfaces prevalent for the 2nd half+ of a week or more long trip in this specific example. I can get that quality of skiing or better for a whole lot cheaper, less planning, less hassle factors (no rental car, language changes, passports or what all) is all I'm saying. If you live in the mid-west, east coast or non-ski southern cities I agree that it could be nearly as enticing for some. For those of us in/near western NA ski country it's just not that great an overall proposition without something seriously more interesting, like going for legendary routes in La Grave or something. Again, just my opinion.

I will also say that while snow totals may be similar to Colo, the pattern of snowfall is IMO very different. eg my anecdotal big storms then nothing for weeks at individual locations in Europe vs the mostly constant smaller refresher storms in Colo that eventually add up to the same totals. Base depth matters, but so do surface conditions. I still say Colo beats Euro for surface conditions most of the time due to the frequent smaller refreshers. To which I guess I am becoming the new Admin perhaps - less a pow snob and more a surface conditions snob. I've skied enough hard, crappy and scratchy surfaces over the years.

Tony's powder percentage in Europe is better than Colorado, Utah, and Other U.S. Rockies, thus disproving your thesis.

Note that Tony had a series of terrible Iron Blosam weeks in Utah for years that skew his % powder there much below the expected normal. Maybe he is finally catching back up toward normal in recent better seasons. Related: Entirely unlike Utah where he is locked in to the same week, he spends a lot of time last minute cherry-picking his Euro destinations to ensure better than average snowfall/conditions. If he had a set week at the same rough geographic area every year in Europe his % powder would be very dramatically lower IMHO (eg that's the only reason it is anywhere near so high a %).

So the real lesson may be either NA or Europe, wait till the last minute and cherry pick the destination(s) to ensure better than average conditions.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

while snow totals may be similar to Colo, the pattern of snowfall is IMO very different. eg my anecdotal big storms then nothing for weeks at individual locations in Europe vs the mostly constant smaller refresher storms in Colo that eventually add up (...) I still say Colo beats Euro for surface conditions most of the time due to the frequent smaller refreshers.

You're arguing a general point that I don't think anyone here would contest on an apples-to-apples basis. That said; I think that the majority of my visits over the years (virtually all booked well in advance, thus a roll of the dice) show a strong percentage of powder days and very good to excellent conditions. We've covered the + and - of Euro skiing many times, most extensively in this thread started by @jnelly a couple years ago, and I included many of my TR links as evidence. Last week was the first time in memory when I was skunked by no fresh snow and I'd say my reports show that was still a more than worthwhile week.

I sure don't have much interest in the expense or hassle factors to ski Euro-land for the types of chalky and scrape-y groomer surfaces prevalent for the 2nd half+ of a week or more long trip in this specific example. I can get that quality of skiing or better for a whole lot cheaper, less planning, less hassle factors (no rental car, language changes, passports or what all) is all I'm saying.

No one is claiming that you should give up Colorado/Western North America for the Alps or that Alps skiing is a better overall value. It definitely is for me and certainly not for you. If I lived near a big ski region stateside, I would heavily factor in your points above, as well as your increased flight time/connections to ski abroad, jet lag, etc. At the same time, as we've discussed here, there are big upsides and downsides to Ikon World.

So the real lesson may be either NA or Europe, wait till the last minute and cherry pick the destination(s) to ensure better than average conditions.

After that long windup, this is your brilliant conclusion?!?

 

[Tony Crocker]

As James noted, both he and I have chosen our Euro dates well in advance. Final destinations can be chosen later. In the West that would be like booking flights and car in SLC. If Utah isn’t that great you can go to Jackson or Sun Valley. You’re not going to Schweitzer, Bachelor, Taos or anywhere in Canada; logistics are too far. Maybe Tahoe or western Colorado if you have more than a week.

My Utah percentage of expected snowfall bottomed out at 48% in 2017 but is almost 70% now. But LCC powder percentage with normal snowfall wouldn’t be double Europe even though it gets twice as much snow, due to the competition factor. Only in the elite North American microclimates of 400+ inches would I expect long term powder percentages to be as good as in Europe.

“Surface conditions snob?” I definitely get that. Colorado has more areas in the elite category of snow preservation than any other ski region in the world. The SoCal people who only ski at Mammoth have exactly the same attitude.

My point was that one’s personal location drives these decisions heavily, as I wasn’t going to the Alps when I was working. But if EMSC still lived in upstate NY, would his destination trips be exclusively to the West?

I’ll note that ChrisC lives in SF and is working and makes the effort to get some of his ski time in the Alps. With Chris I think it’s more about the big mountain terrain, an aspect EMSC would also appreciate.

 

[jnelly]

The Alps are a stretch for working Americans in western North America due to disproportionate travel times, distances, costs and time change. I only had two one week trips to the Alps before retirement. But I still believe that Easterners, even if working, should probably split their destination trips fairly evenly between Europe and the West.

Excluding Denver and speaking strictly from a time on the mountain aspect; Ill add to this perspective from a midwesterner: If I were to go from where I live in Madison WI to say, SLC or Spokane, JHMR,....thats a stop in either ORD or DEN. Even if I leave by 7am, the flights typically don't arrive until 1-2pm. Basically zero skiing that arrival day. If I were to go to the EU, Its still a stop in ORD or EWR or both but arrival is at 730am in many instances so one can get on the hill yet. Its almost a wash from here to which destination you go save the flight time. One takes all day, another takes all night.
*If I wanted to have same day skiing as departure from here, Id have to drive the 2 hrs to O'hare at 2am or do a Sleep and Fly which then burns another 1/2 day prior to departure.

 

[EMSC]

After that long windup, this is your brilliant conclusion?!?

Actually yes.

I haven't looked recently, but I know Tony's site lists Expected % powder (>6") by region/ski area. Basically an indicator of where odds are likely to turn out best to pre-book trips in the US/Canada. Euro data is less reliable and less consistent for statistics from what I understand so the fact that a less reliable snowfall pattern, but changing destination somewhat can easily trump say Utah or BC for % powder on Tony's list is a bit surprising (or at least with my working stiff/racer chaser lack of flexibility never thought through the implications). It makes me wonder how high the % could go to NOT lock in a western US/Canada destination for example and do similar tactics as Tony is doing in Europe. I would initially guess a % somewhere between his current BC actual and website projected Utah powder numbers (his BC is skewed by cat skiing vs all resort skiing).

I'm starting to change my personal mold a touch (eg Mustang trip), though I have plenty of days at predetermined sites (eg Eldora training days or races at Steamboat in late March - I sure hope there is a storm cycle then, otherwise it'll be soft glop).

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'm starting to change my personal mold a touch (eg Mustang trip)

If you have a serious job and you need to plan in advance due to work and family commitments, cat/heli time is the way to go to ensure a seasonal powder fix. I started doing this at age 44 in 1997, tried many places. I found Mustang in 2010 and stuck with it for 10 years. For cat skiing Mustang is the cream of the crop and and for someone of EMSC's ski ability I strongly recommend not letting go of a seat there once you have it.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

if EMSC still lived in upstate NY, would his destination trips be exclusively to the West?

I'm reasonably sure that the answer is yes. Other than bucket-list expert destinations like Chamonix and La Grave, I don't see EMSC flying east much due to concerns about conditions and not wanting to deal with the logistics hassles and cultural differences of travel outside North America. Fair enough.

I've mentioned before that it's always surprising to me how many NYS skiers on Harv's forum will enthusiastically travel to Whistler -- one of the few North American resorts on a Euro scale -- where you lose a day to travel in each direction (even though East Coasters can easily ski on arrival day in the Alps). I think that a lot of it is due to wanting to be in a place where they feel more comfortable culturally. I get that to a certain extent as I have no desire to ski in Spanish, South American, Polish, Balkan, etc. regions (even though there are many worthwhile places to go) until I exhaust the ones where I speak the language. I commended Tony and Liz the previous week on their adventurous streak and going wherever in the world that they want.

That said; the many TRs from Japan have convinced me that definitely I want to go there despite any cultural challenges. It's just something that needs (from the time-zone/flight time issue alone) a minimum two-week investment; ergo, I'm not doing it while still working a fulltime job.

 

[Tony Crocker]

more a surface conditions snob

No question Colorado dominates that category. Here are the top places in North America by the snow preservation score I devised for Zrankings:

1​	Arapahoe Basin	875
2​	Taos	775
3​	Crested Butte	699
4​	Wolf Creek	656
5​	Copper Mountain	628
6​	Telluride	602
7​	Aspen Highlands	593
8​	Mammoth	590
9​	Snowbird	568
10​	Snowmass	559
11​	Winter Park	558
12​	Aspen Mountain - Ajax	551
13​	Monarch	526
14​	Marmot Basin	508
15​	Loveland	506

Factors include latitude, altitude, exposure, rain incidence and a plus for steep areas if they are mainly north facing.

 

[EMSC]

If you have a serious job and you need to plan in advance due to work and family commitments

Hah, understatement. I have ~95% of exactly which dates are ski days and at exactly which resort known by late Nov each year. I do get the occasional audible, but very few of them. I actually pre-fill out my annual ski tracking spreadsheet in Nov since the variations/changes will be quite small. For the most part I just add notes on snowfall/quality or etc... to each day when they happen.

I'm reasonably sure that the answer is yes. Other than bucket-list expert destinations like Chamonix and La Grave, I don't see EMSC flying east much due to concerns about conditions and not wanting to deal with the logistics hassles and cultural differences of travel outside North America. Fair enough.

Somewhere in this is a yes/no kind of answer on my side. Skiing is already a significant logistical undertaking. One that I get to do less than I would prefer. For now while working I prefer to not add yet more challenges to getting my best possible maximum number of ski days. Not to mention planning is greatly more simplified (in part because I already know it so well) in North America compared to variable last minute planning the way you approach Europe (which I currently literally don't have the time for extra planning anyway).

That said, I actually do like visiting different cultures and dealing with the languages, etc...at times. I have traveled extensively to both Europe and Asia for business over the years for example. But those are very different trips for me than trying to maximize ski time in the short time frames I have available each winter.

 

[Tony Crocker]

It makes me wonder how high the % could go to NOT lock in a western US/Canada destination for example and do similar tactics as Tony is doing in Europe.

This is the point I addressed in post #6 above. I don't recommend far advance booking in North America either. But usually you have to book flights well in advance of the 3-5 day powder chasing window. In the West the best use of my info is avoiding the disaster scenarios. Stick to the elite areas for advance booking anywhere before mid-January and book other places once snow is on the ground.

I know Tony's site lists Expected % powder (>6") by region/ski area

Along with that analysis back in 2008 I estimated powder odds for a one week trip booked in advance. Here is where I think James has been lucky. I calculated that for a 270-inch snowfall Rockies area, 60% of one week trips would have no days of 6+ inches new snow. I don't think that stat is any better in the Alps as it wasn't much different in Sierra vs. Rockies areas in the 350 inch range. More volatility does get you more 12+ inch days but even in the Sierra that's only 31% of weeks.

Liz and my Alps trips are longer, usually 2 1/2 weeks like this one, so our odds of getting skunked completely for powder are probably more like 35%. But James is getting powder on way more than 40% of his trips, and I don't think that much of it is from days old leftovers that fell before he arrived.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have ~95% of exactly which dates are ski day

This sure looks like far advance booking for anything not drive-up. It seems glaringly obvious at this point in EMSC's life cycle that the advance booking should target quality and cat/heli specifically. It is unfortunate that his January Mustang trip was about lowest 15th percentile by my experience (31 heli and 84 cat days). When I started this process in 1997 my first snowcat lodge trip at Island Lake was outstanding, and the next season the two heli days at TLH set a powder vertical record that still stands. So I was immediately addicted to this method of powder chasing.

And if EMSC does consider a Euro trip, I'd suggest he consult ChrisC vs. James or me, though I've done a little bit of the skiing over there that fits EMSC/Chris C parameters.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

if EMSC does consider a Euro trip, I'd suggest he consult ChrisC vs. James or me, though I've done a little bit of the skiing over there that fits Chris C/EMSC parameters.

Not sure that anyone who's flying to the Alps at a higher opportunity cost (s/he could more easily ski somewhere good far closer to home) should consult with me as so many of my weirdo ski-area choices don't stand up to snow-preservation number crunching. Also, as Tony notes, EMSC is looking for the type of terrain that's beyond my pay grade.

 

[Sbooker]

No question Colorado dominates that category. Here are the top places in North America by the snow preservation score I devised for Zrankings:

1​	Arapahoe Basin	875
2​	Taos	775
3​	Crested Butte	699
4​	Wolf Creek	656
5​	Copper Mountain	628
6​	Telluride	602
7​	Aspen Highlands	593
8​	Mammoth	590
9​	Snowbird	568
10​	Snowmass	559
11​	Winter Park	558
12​	Aspen Mountain - Ajax	551
13​	Monarch	526
14​	Marmot Basin	508
15​	Loveland	506

Factors include latitude, altitude, exposure, rain incidence and a plus for steep areas if they are mainly north facing.

Interesting. I would have expected Snowbird to be higher on that list. Is there a factor that drags it down?

 

[Tony Crocker]

The places ahead of Snowbird all have a higher altitude range. Mammoth and Snowbird have identical altitude range.

 

[Tony Crocker]

many of my weirdo ski-area choices don't stand up to snow-preservation number crunching.

Liz has pointed out that we should seek these places out when they are good. Just don't commit to them in advance. Luckily in the Alps nearly anywhere is driveable in a day from the key gateway airports.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Is there a factor that drags it down?

It would probably be difficult to quantify; however, wouldn't skier numbers (especially those that are affected by Ikon/Epic Pass) have an impact on the condition of snow? We already know that the industrial joints are going to put a lot more wear and tear on surfaces.

 

[Sbooker]

And a really interesting topic in general. Due to me being Australian and having family (school holiday dates) and work commitments I pretty much have to pre book destinations a long time out given the cost of flying extreme long haul.
I don’t have extensive experience (ten ski trips to North America and three to Euro Alps) and I don’t keep detailed records so my sample is small and likely somewhat inaccurate but I would estimate that snow conditions in general have been better for me in North America without question.
Of course there are other factors that I have to consider -
1. My wife has little interest in skiing off the groomers and she values cruising around taking in great views highly.
2. My family actively pursue cultural experiences and some off snow activities. Europe has an abundance of these obviously. The US provides some decent off snow tourist type things. Western Canada is more limited in this regard in my opinion.
3. It’s easier for a gaper like me to ski off piste safely in North America although I found it pretty easy to find safe areas to get fresh snow turns on powder days on my last trip to Europe.
4. Cost. Ten years ago it was cheaper to go to North America for skiing if equipped with a multi area pass. Because the cost of flights to US/Canada from Australia are now more expensive than those to Europe I would think the overall cost for a family of four would now be roughly the same.

Japan is the elephant in the room in my situation and after our coming April trip to Oregon it will be our next Northern Hemisphere destination in January 2024. We’ve only one short Japan trip under our belt so far but my wife is going to have to sacrifice those long groomers with spectacular views so the rest of the team have a better chance of getting at some moderate angle powder.