I’ve read about some of the ski areas on this pass on this forum. Seems incredible value to me.
Europe 24/25
- Thread starter Sbooker
- Start date
No question. I've skied 14 of them and have had my eye on many of the other obscure ones.
Most of these areas must not be reliable because 50 of them are currently closed on March 13. 18 of the 21 that are open are in Wallis, including the three I have skied.
I don't know the snowfall or even elevation stats but unrestricted visits for the season, even if there are only a handful of decent hills, has to be attractive.
Edit. Wallis is Valais? I've not heard of Wallis and can't find it when searching.
Yes Wallis is Valais. It's a relatively unusual region in that the mom-and-pop hills are at fairly high altitude. That is why we spent the first quarter of this year's Alps trip there.
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EMSC
Well-known member
Believe it or not my annual guys group is considering Europe for next season (20th annual trip).
As you know, roughly half the group is intermediate to single black level trails and half is expert. There's been so much discussion on these boards and I am terrible at figuring out which is in which region or etc... Throw me some ideas on likely good snow no matter what (eg higher elevation), plenty of terrain and views to impress the crowd, but also with some options for both easy/safe simple off piste here and there and/or guided for the experts.
Now to convince most of the east coasters they need to spend more than 3 days on the ground...
The group tends to be fixated on one region/place once selected, locking in airfare, lodging, etc.. usually by sometime in Nov/Dec.
Also looks like quite the bubble of Euro school vacations for a longer than normal stretch of weeks next winter per the other thread.
As you know, roughly half the group is intermediate to single black level trails and half is expert. There's been so much discussion on these boards and I am terrible at figuring out which is in which region or etc... Throw me some ideas on likely good snow no matter what (eg higher elevation), plenty of terrain and views to impress the crowd, but also with some options for both easy/safe simple off piste here and there and/or guided for the experts.
Now to convince most of the east coasters they need to spend more than 3 days on the ground...
The group tends to be fixated on one region/place once selected, locking in airfare, lodging, etc.. usually by sometime in Nov/Dec.
Also looks like quite the bubble of Euro school vacations for a longer than normal stretch of weeks next winter per the other thread.
ChrisC
Well-known member
I immediately think of TWO - maybe three places: St. Anton (Arlberg), Val d'Isere/Tignes, or Meribel (3 Vallees).
Do not do Zermatt.
Would I return to Val d'Isere if I did not think it was one of the best?
So, What am I thinking?
1. Zurich. St. Anton - train - no cars!
There are so many trains every hour. Just get on a train and make it to St. Anton. It's amazing afterward.
2. Geneva - Val d'Isere or Meribel
I think St. Anton gets better snow, but if it snows in Val d'Ivoire/Meribel/Val Thorens, you have it for a week.
But I am starting to understand Val d'Isere better. I now know a bit.
Do not do Zermatt.
Would I return to Val d'Isere if I did not think it was one of the best?
So, What am I thinking?
1. Zurich. St. Anton - train - no cars!
There are so many trains every hour. Just get on a train and make it to St. Anton. It's amazing afterward.
2. Geneva - Val d'Isere or Meribel
I think St. Anton gets better snow, but if it snows in Val d'Ivoire/Meribel/Val Thorens, you have it for a week.
But I am starting to understand Val d'Isere better. I now know a bit.
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With my ski season done and a few more weeks until I'm cleared for mountain biking and golf, I finally finished the Alps trip-report map that I'd started many moons ago. It underscored that in addition to the ski areas in Valais/Wallis that Tony and I have enjoyed, the Magic Pass would be useful for two lower-elevation regions in western Switzerland that I've been tracking for more than a decade but never managed to visit: the Fribourg Alps and Vaud.
Including on-mountain rescue insurance and illness reimbursement, the cost is CHF 431 (approx $480 US). Magic Pass is one of a few 2024-25 scenarios that I'm gaming out for a possible month-long visit up through the February school holidays. The price goes up significantly on April 9 so that'll hopefully motivate me to make a decision by then.
In the meantime, check out the convincing trip reports from Alpinforum. Not the type of places that you'd schedule for a short destination trip booked months in advance, but definitely worthwhile if I can pick and choose my days across several weeks in early mid-season.
Fribourg Alps (red oval)
Vaud (black oval)
- Les Rochers de Naye (wow!)
- Les Pléiades
- Les Mosses, La Lecherette, Leysin
- Villars, Gryon, Les Diablerets
St. Anton probably gets MORE snow. But it has bad exposure and mediocre elevation range. So if EMSC's group is going in our usual time frame late January before school holidays, it's probably the best choice. But if the trip is after the school holidays in March, no. With advance committing in Nov/Dec. for March, you have to choose a place with high altitude and decent amount of north exposure.
Recall I went through that list and 50 of places were already closed mid-March. A lot of seasons like this one you'll be using that pass nearly all in Wallis/Valais because most of the other places are low altitude. We all have our eyes on some of the lower places. One of these years it will work out, but I wouldn't want to be committed to them in advance.
I understand from a business perspective why it's a seasonal route but such a shame that United's Newark/Nice nonstop only starts at the end of the Maritime Alps ski season. 
EMSC
Well-known member
Reviving this thread quickly. The group leader of our guys trip is pushing for early March (approx March 5-9ish maybe a few days longer).
I note Tony thinks St anton might not be good exposure that late. Meribel or Val d'Isere better?
Any others for a mixed group that time of year?
I note Tony thinks St anton might not be good exposure that late. Meribel or Val d'Isere better?
Any others for a mixed group that time of year?
I can't comment on the suitability of the Arlberg at that time but if Tony says it's not ideal.......
Can't go wrong with Val DÍsere. I fly into Geneva on the 13th so I'll miss you. Your skiing is well above my pay grade anyway.
Val d'Isere or Val Thorens. Meribel looks central to Trois Vallees, but Val Thorens/Les Menuires is much more expansive, especially it you add in Orelle. You can still get out early and cross over to Courchevel for a day.
Mardi Gras week is March 1-8 in 2025, expected busiest of the year aside from Christmas, primarily for German holidays. I'd schedule that trip for the week after that. Overall it's a good time of year for the Alps, but one I will never do because of Iron Blosam schedule.
As for the Arlberg, it's probably still worth consideration if you can base in Lech/Zurs vs. St. Anton. Not only is the exposure issue worse in St. Anton, I recall that EMSC's group has mixed abilities and St. Anton is not often pleasant for intermediates, especially if they have to ski into its base at the end of the day. I know Sbooker and spouse can vouch for this.
Val d'Isere and Val Thorens are conservative choices with lowest odds of poor conditions. These are definitely the places I would book in spring. For second week of March you might take more of a chance on a resort that strongly appeals to you with a more average reliability record. I'd still avoid very low altitude places like Saalbach, Portes du Soleil, etc. Those are the places to take a chance on the other side of the school holidays in late January.
I'm assuming that the flexible air + car rental strategy that we recommend here is not viable for EMSC's group, though James has done it on 6-day trips a few times.
Mardi Gras week is March 1-8 in 2025, expected busiest of the year aside from Christmas, primarily for German holidays. I'd schedule that trip for the week after that. Overall it's a good time of year for the Alps, but one I will never do because of Iron Blosam schedule.
As for the Arlberg, it's probably still worth consideration if you can base in Lech/Zurs vs. St. Anton. Not only is the exposure issue worse in St. Anton, I recall that EMSC's group has mixed abilities and St. Anton is not often pleasant for intermediates, especially if they have to ski into its base at the end of the day. I know Sbooker and spouse can vouch for this.
Val d'Isere and Val Thorens are conservative choices with lowest odds of poor conditions. These are definitely the places I would book in spring. For second week of March you might take more of a chance on a resort that strongly appeals to you with a more average reliability record. I'd still avoid very low altitude places like Saalbach, Portes du Soleil, etc. Those are the places to take a chance on the other side of the school holidays in late January.
I'm assuming that the flexible air + car rental strategy that we recommend here is not viable for EMSC's group, though James has done it on 6-day trips a few times.
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This conventional wisdom makes sense if you're unable to be flexible for whatever reason, which seems to be the case here. You can see in my 3 Valleys March 2023 report -- the same week that Tony is recommending -- how good conditions were. Similar to this season's stay at Val d'Isere, there were a few mega-resort moments that rubbed me the wrong way; however, getting away from the crowds wasn't overly difficult and EMSC, accustomed to Copper and the other Colorado Ikon joints, should feel at home there.
ChrisC
Well-known member
You could choose ONE European mega-resort and be set for a week. You might not even need a car rental.
You could add Zermatt to the list—it might be prime time for its expert terrain to be well-covered with snow. I skied it in mid/late April, and the top 1/3 was still packed powder.
I have a slightly different opinion, having stayed in both Meribel-Mottaret (January 2006) and Val Thorens (April 2018). Val Thorens is an excellent base, but it has no trees, and a strong storm could 100% shut it down. And you are far from Courchevel, which has some of the best skiing in the Trois Vallees (frankly, its couloirs are probably the most easily accessible, interesting expert skiing). Val Thorens mostly skis low expert - very fun and great off-piste, but not extreme for the most part. Also, the village is more 1970s French purpose-built vs. the traditional architecture of Meribel.
Meanwhile, Meribel is one lift to Courchevel, one lift to Les Menuires or base of La Masse, or two lifts to Val Thorens. It takes 5-15 minutes to access any place in the 3 Vallees. More importantly, Meribel has trees for storm skiing and connects well to Courchevel's lower-elevation trees. Also, Meribel is a more charming village than Val Thorens and has tons of Chalets, a foreign concept to most Americans.
Chalets are generally larger homes with multiple bedrooms/hot tubs/decks/etc. that can be pretty nice - along with communal dining/chef for breakfast and dinner -"Chalet Girls." Great for a group!!!! It is a much better value than traditional lodging with meals out. Staff commonly has Wednesdays off - so you can go out midweek for dinner. But I highly recommend you look into the concept! Also found in Val d'Isere. Sometimes, airfare and transfers are included ( most likely from London - might need to remove this cost/option coming from the US).
If I were to repeat the Trois Vallees, I would do a group chalet based in Meribel proper or Meribel Mottaret. But you cannot go wrong with Val Thorens—there are more inns/hotels there. I'm trying to find a chalet for a future visit to Val d'Isere.
I am a big fan of the Arlberg! It's likely the snowiest European mega-resort (400"+ in parts), and it has tons of terrain.
Frankly, I like St. Anton over Lech because each day, you are at the base of three great ski lifts: the Gondola to Rendl (north-facing off-piste bowls/west pistes), Gampen HS Quad (low expert/high intermediate area), and Galzigbahn (St. Anton/Valluga proper, and one more lift to Stuben and another to Zurs). There are many inns (some quite reasonable), restaurants, and bars. Also, the English-speaking group guides are based in St. Anton. It's also very easy to ski to Warth and/or Lech, and end the day in Lech for apres-ski and take the bus home. (or vice versa). I somewhat liked the more low-key apres ski outside bars along Lech's river, contrasting to high-energy St. Anton.
The only issue is the return run into St. Anton. There is only one non-expert way into the village, and sometimes it can be closed for avalanches/wet slides, potentially forcing lots of skiers onto a wide expert run. It has the same issues with any mega-resort valley return run. (Stuben, Rendl, Zurs, and Gampen/St. Anton areas do not have this issue).
Zurs might have the best location, but it is relatively small and expensive.
Early March might mean the beginning of spring skiing for St. Anton proper, where you will need a daily warmup on its south-facing slopes. It's like Jackson Hole and its Hobacks/Lower Faces in March. If you are comfortable booking a trip to Jackson with expected conditions in early March, you will be fine for St. Anton/Arlberg. When I skied in late January 2019, there was a 120-320" (3-8m) base, lots of new snow, and temps near 0F night/20s day - so it was optimal conditions!
Some storms can miss the Western French Alps but will hit the middle/eastern Alps - Austria's Tyrol and sometimes Andermatt, Engelberg, Davos, etc.
My only complaint about Lech is that it is pretty far from St. Anton, Stuben, and Rendl, and you will not get to ski these prime areas in depth. Also, from a guiding perspective - there is nothing similar to Piste-to-Powder. However, your size group could procure its own guide reasonably.
It is hard managing big groups. My favorite mega-resorts are Val d'Isere/Tignes and St. Anton Arlberg—and Verbier, to a lesser extent. The 3 Vallees has a lot of off-piste but is not as extreme. I also really enjoyed Zermatt/Cervinia, Engleberg/Andermatt (highly underrated), and Davos/St. Moritz. Obviously, Chamonix is in the mix - which can easily include side trips to Courmayeur, moderately-priced heliskiing, storm-proof Megeve, and Verbier.
Also, France and Austria are more affordable than Switzerland, primarily due to cheaper meals. You could likely get private guides at any mega resorts split among your group - although verify the max group number. It might be 8 ... maybe up to 10. You can ski for <$150 USD/Day with a group guide and lift ticket. It's cheaper than a day ticket at almost any US/Canada ski resort.
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ChrisC
Well-known member
I reread your dates. The Chalets found in the Alps generally require a full week and may not be applicable.
That is a relatively short time frame with time zone adjustments. Assume a travel day on either end. However, if you make any flight connections in North America, you can ski on arrival day—given motivation. Frankly, I don't particularly appreciate sitting around a European hub at 7/8 a.m. after a redeye waiting for a connection to a ski gateway like Geneva or Lyon. (Geneva only has direct flights from NYC and WashDC.) Trying to over-caffeinate in the airport lounge is not fun, combined with a possible night drive. Zurich/Milan/Munich have more direct options.
Given your stay, I would definitely forgo a car and see if you could coordinate a group shuttle (or Alpibus) and try to get on similar flights if you are flying into Geneva and skiing the French Alps. You will spend $20-30/day to store a rental car at a parking facility in Val d'Isere, Val Thorens, Zermatt/Tasch, etc., and likely never use it. If you decide on St. Anton or Zermatt, do the train from Zurich; it's 2.75 or 3.5 hours, respectively, with one change leaving multiple times per hour.
When skiing on a guy's trip to the Alps in late January 2023, my group of 10 (8 UK, 1 Canadian, 1 American) decided between Courmayeur and Lech. The main finalist criteria were a day heli-ski option and a nearby airport. Courmayeur was closer to Turin (1 hour) than Lech to Innsbruck/Zurich (1.5/2.5 hrs respectively). Also, Mount Blanc/Courmayeur Heli had a full-day itinerary, while Lech was a single or double heli drop with fewer routes. Finally, Italy is cheaper - with better food and lodging - than Austria. Therefore, we selected Courmayeur - partially due to sharing my previous experience there. Link. I had little input, but I skied Arlberg for a week in 2019 and hit most of the great off-piste areas (except Valluga North) while less familiar with Courmayeur and Italy.
In hindsight, a nice storm dropped 12-18" on Lech/Arlberg on the Wednesday/Thursday before the four-day weekend, but it missed the Courmayeur/Western Alps (last-minute change). While a one-off weather input, there is a reason why Warth & Lech often report nearly 400" annually at resort level while the French Alps are mostly 250" annually.
tseeb
Well-known member
I skied at Aviemore and Glencoe in Scotland in 1980 when I lived in N England, but didn't know there was lift-served skiing in England until I spent 3 days staying with a skibuddy at his family's place in the Lake District last month. You have to walk for a hour from where you park to where you ski. More info at https://www.ldscsnowski.co.uk/ and a video at
I believe ChrisC has commented that in a significant number of seasons Zermatt's prime Hohtalli terrain never gets adequately covered. I know 2022 was one of those because that's where we would have gone our first week in late March before our Val Thorens reservation. I think the conclusion of that discussion is that Zermatt should not be advance booked for experts until snow is on the ground. If that happens early, a booking for late season is still OK because snow preservation is among the very best in the Alps.
I would not argue with any of this. The chalet setup might be great for EMSC's group. At the end of March 2022 there had been a 3-week dry spell, Mottaret and Le Menuires were sloppy, so we never ventured lower into Meribel.
You shouldn't be. There are some years Jackson gets a run of sustained snowy weather and powder in late February/early March, but that's generously 15% of seasons and obviously not predictable.
As for powder on south facing off piste, about 2 hours of March sun will kill it, and if it's been hammered by powder hounds during those 2 hours, it can ski like crap for well over a week thereafter. Jimmy Petterson told me that decades ago, St. Anton would not open the Valluga for a week after a spring storm, thus letting the snow settle into smooth corn that would ski well for many days.
That said, St. Anton is not Jackson, which varies only modestly from its prevailing ESE exposure. In the Arlberg you have scattered but expansive areas of north facing: over half of Rendl, Stuben and Warth plus a few sectors in Lech-Zurs and some far flung places Piste-to-Powder can show you.
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If many in your group are using Piste-to-Powder for a majority of days, I agree that's an overriding factor. In 2013 I had to catch a bus at 8:06AM in Lech to meet Piste-to-Powder in time, plus take another bus back at the end of the day.
As for skiing logistics, St. Anton to Warth is as tedious as Lech to Rendl, and in either case it's best to end your ski day at the destination and take the bus back to your lodging. With the 2016 Flexenbahn lift connection, Stuben is equally accessible from Lech/Zurs as from St. Anton. Also, since St. Anton is the much larger bed base, daily ski safaris starting there are more likely to encounter lift line/crowd chokepoints than those moving in the opposite direction.
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