Alta, UT 12/4/11

[Admin]

Day 9: Cold and snowing.

It was even colder today than yesterday by a few degrees, but instead of bright sunshine today featured light to moderate snowfall throughout the day to yield a few more inches of pixie dust. Groomers were downright fun this morning as yesterday's inch or two was tilled into the surface before today's inch or two fell on top of it. Some ungroomed areas like Race Hill are showing the wear, while others like Liftline beneath the upper stage of Collins were downright chalky and fun. No matter how you slice it, though, we could use a big multi-foot dump as this inch here, inch there stuff isn't making any difference in covering stuff up.

I didn't take any pictures today. Why? Alta's Photo of the Day provides all the explanation you need:

http://www.alta.com/images/pod/20111204b.jpg

Two interesting observations from that photo:
1. Note the new safety bars on Collins;
2. Note that no one is using them.

 

[SkiandflyUtah]

Safety bars?? Never thought I'd see it happen at Alta of all places, about as useless as the Lawyers that drive this kind of crap!!!

We need more snow and less attorneys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [-X

 

[Marc_C]

Safety bars?? Never thought I'd see it happen at Alta of all places, about as useless as the Lawyers that drive this kind of crap!!!

We need more snow and less attorneys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [-X

An 8 yr old child falling head first into the snow from 20' off the Sunnyside chair two years ago may have had something to do with it.

I'm just pissed they didn't include foot rests...the only thing that makes safety bars worthwhile!

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'm just pissed they didn't include foot rests...the only thing that makes safety bars worthwhile!

+1 The bars are useless without footrests.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

+1 The bars are useless without footrests.

I agree about the footrests, but the rage about western areas losing their coolness factor because of safety bars on chairs is pure d*ck swinging -- if you don't like them, don't use them.

 

[Patrick]

+1 The bars are useless without footrests.

I agree about the footrests, but the rage about western areas losing their coolness factor because of safety bars on chairs is pure d*ck swinging -- if you don't like them, don't use them.

+1

 

[Tony Crocker]

The existence of safety bars/footrests has essentially zero influence in determining where I'll ski. No "coolness" factor either way. But if a ski area is going to spend $ to install them, I think they should go all the way and at least provide some utility for those $ spent.

 

[berkshireskier]

I'm just pissed they didn't include foot rests...the only thing that makes safety bars worthwhile!

+1 The bars are useless without footrests.

Isn't the point of "safety" bars to (hopefully) ensure the "safety" of skiers by preventing them from slipping off the chair?Footrests are a mere afterthought to the real purpose. Although, I'd like to see the statistics on how many people actually fall off chairlifts with no safety bars versus lifts with the safety bars. My guess would be that there is no difference in the incidence of falls off the lift and, in fact, it would not surprise me if there were a higher incidence of accidents on lifts with the safety bars as people assume a false sense of security (esp. kids) when the safety bar is down. There was actually an accident at my local ski hill last winter where a 7-year old who was riding a quad with three other kids struggled so hard to try to lift the safety bar (with footrests) at the top of the mountain that he actually fell off the chair and dropped about 15 feet (luckily into some soft snow) but was not seriously injured.

 

[Admin]

Although, I'd like to see the statistics on how many people actually fall off chairlifts with no safety bars versus lifts with the safety bars. My guess would be that there is no difference in the incidence of falls off the lift and, in fact, it would not surprise me if there were a higher incidence of accidents on lifts with the safety bars as people assume a false sense of security (esp. kids) when the safety bar is down.

I've been told by someone in resort risk management that the incidents of accidents involving safety bars (i.e., pinching, crushing, knocking on the head, etc.) far outweighs those involving someone falling from the chair.

Of course, adding safety bars comes with ancillary benefits. I've seen visitors who are positively freaked by the lack of safety bars at Alta. In fact, I know one Serbian resident who once boarded Collins and, upon realizing that there was no bar, promptly jumped from the lift near the first tower and swore that he'd never ski there again. That problem is now solved.

 

[Patrick]

I've been told by someone in resort risk management that the incidents of accidents involving safety bars (i.e., pinching, crushing, knocking on the head, etc.) far outweighs those involving someone falling from the chair.

The same argument can and is used in the Helmet versus No Helmet. Diminish sound, overconfidence, whiplash on young kid due to weigh of helmet and mass of their head.

I have no strong opinion on the matter, although I've been whacked in the back of head too many times to someone rushing to lower the bar.

When I was younger, I was yelled at by the Ski Patrol more than a few times for not lowering my bar.

Similar to a helmet, a safety bar could prevent the rare bad injury (falling out of a chair) versus a possible increase of minor ones.

 

[Admin]

I've been told by someone in resort risk management that the incidents of accidents involving safety bars (i.e., pinching, crushing, knocking on the head, etc.) far outweighs those involving someone falling from the chair.

The same argument can and is used in the Helmet versus No Helmet. Diminish sound, overconfidence, whiplash on young kid due to weigh of helmet and mass of their head.

Apples and oranges. Besides, it's flat out not true...a helmet clearly reduces the incidence of injury, a safety bar reportedly does not.

Similar to a helmet, a safety bar could prevent the rare bad injury (falling out of a chair) versus a possible increase of minor ones.

Now that's true.

 

[EMSC]

I know I've posted this before at some point. The Denver Post (back in the end of the gravy days of the newspaper business), actually paid a researcher to compare reported incident statistics of Colorado resorts vs I think it was Vermont back east where safety bars are required (and patrol actually hounds people to use them). The article was specifically looking at the safety bar issue. The research showed exactly no statistical difference in the rate or severity of reportable injury accidents (falls, etc...) from lifts without safety bars vs those with bars. This was around approx the year 2000 when they published it and I think it looked at a decade or so worth of data.

And while Anecdote is not a good predictor, I have personally watched several small children fall from lifts... Nearly all from those lifts WITH safety bars.

Not to mention liability aspects here in the US which means they are not safety bars anymore. They are "Comfort" bars.

 

[Bobby Danger]

being from new hampster , and living in utah for the last eighteen years . i can only say that safety bar use is pushed alot harder back there than here , probably due to ambulance chasers and insurance companys . bet ya they got a discount for the installation of the bars . and yes i've been banged by the safety bar like everyone else a hundred times over the fourty three years i've been skiing ... but what used to really get me was the center posted chairs of the 50's and 60's. learning to ski at gunstock in n.h. we had two center posted chairs side by side . wildcat chair is center posted with no safety bars and i feel right at home. if one doesn't like them just ignore it

 

[stan]

Bobby-

You are dating yourself! The only real center pole lift at Alta is Cecret. Wildcat used to be that way, but I think they replaced the chairs about the time they got rid of the midway unloading station. It is still a comfortable lift, though...

 

[Bobby Danger]

forgot about that one don't ride that lift much . that's a center seat pole. wildcat is an angled center pole . and cecret doesn't have a safety bar either and far more kids ride that lift than wildcat ... ashamed they removed the mid station

 

[Tony Crocker]

Thunder Mt. at Baldy is center pole with no safety bar. Interestingly all 3 other other lifts have footrests even though I'll bet Thunder accounts for at least 3/4 of the vertical skied at Baldy in any given season.

With its demand they post signs saying "No Beginners" and try to run Thunder as fast as possible. The biggest challenge for me was when Adam was 7 and ripping the terrain but too short to get on the Thunder lift without assistance. Each day I had to train the liftie, "I'll hold the center bar, YOU pick up the kid and put him on the chair." Skiing the same lift 10+ times a day the lifties were nearly always cooperative.

 

[kingslug]

I HATE safety bars..especialy when some little prick brings one down on your head..like last week at K...useless...although the red Dog chair at Squaw is a little scary ...

 

[lookn4powder]

Bobby-

You are dating yourself! ...

Here's another dating memory: I remember the old KT-22 double chair at Squaw Valley. Midway between two towers it looked like the drop was 100'. No bars, of course. I wonder if anyone fell out of a chair during its tenure.

Of course, anyone squeamish about height would ever get on that lift, and I was always aware--even focused--on the drop, so I always maintained a grip--particularly on breezy days.

Jeff

 

[Tony Crocker]

Here's another dating memory: I remember the old KT-22 double chair at Squaw Valley. Midway between two towers it looked like the drop was 100'. No bars, of course. I wonder if anyone fell out of a chair during its tenure.

Of course, anyone squeamish about height would ever get on that lift, and I was always aware--even focused--on the drop, so I always maintained a grip--particularly on breezy days.
Jeff

Chair 23 at Mammoth is still like that, and it has its fair share of breezy days. :lol:

 

[berkshireskier]

One of the stories on the front page is reporting that a 7-year old boy has died after falling from a chair lift at Sugar Bowl. No mention in the article on whether or not the chair had a safety bar (is it required in California?), but it did say that he fell 60 feet onto hard snow. Bad, sad story. Last winter I taught a race development program and I had nine 7-year year old kids in my group and I used to worry all the time time about kids falling off the lift. At that age, kids are squirming around, fooling around, taking off their gloves, etc. and not really paying attention to remaining on the lift. I could easily see where a kid might slip off the chair, even with a safety bar. As I mentioned before, one of the kids in another group did fall off the lift when he was trying to raise the bar at the top but, fortunately, he fell only about 15 ft into some soft snow right before the off ramp at the top of the mountain and not seriously hurt. But the instructor for that group (who was not on the chair with him) was totally freaked out about the accident.