Chatter Creek, Golden BC, Canada, Feb 2004

Lockie Brown

Lockie Brown

New member
One of the best snowcat skiing trips yet. Powder, powder, powder. Fresh tracks every run for 4 days. Organized a group of 24 old friends from Whistler and other spots. Great snow, great weather, great company, great lodge, too much beer. Fantastic!

Snow was good on all aspects. Almost no sun- or wind-crust. Bluebird days. Glacier at 9800ft very mellow with fantastic views of continential divide. The alpine bowls were in good shape, but the protected snow in the trees was the favorite of all. There are some old cut blocks at the lower elevations (5400ft) that were covered with soft "pillows". Too much fun!

Chatter Creek is expanding next year. One more cat with another 12 guests. Also pushing into new terrain. Check it out at http://backcountrywintervacations.com

If you have not tried snowcat skiing, give youself a treat. Much more laid back and much less expensive than heli-skiing. Lots and lots of untracked snow. Great lodges, good food, good guides. Lots and lots of fun. Works well for strong intermediate through expert. I've had them all in my groups and I've never had a disappointed group member. I've been to Island Lake Lodge and had great skiing there, but Chatter is a little higher and I think it has more reliable weather.
 
In my FTO article in 2002 http://www.firsttracksonline.com/News/2 ... -vs.-Heli/ I did touch on the possibility that Chatter Creek's terrain might be the exception in B.C. of being more alpine (65% according to your website reference) and having sufficient elevation to make March/April more attractive than at other cat operations.

As I haven't skied there, I would have a few questions, in which other FTO readers might also be interested. <BR> <BR>When were you there?

How much vertical per day?

How restricted is skiing if the alpine is unavailable due to storms, visibility or avalanche control?

A more detailed comparison to Island Lake (my FTO article http://www.firsttracksonline.com/News/2 ... land-(Lake)/ would be useful. I estimate Island Lake's terrain as 65% trees and in this year's report viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5501 I expressed some concerns about snow reliability despite the high standards of terrain and service.
 
Tony, nice to hear from you. I've enjoyed many of your thoughtful articles. I will try to answer your questions:

1. For the past two years my trips to Chatter have been at the end of Jan and into Feb. That's the tour I wrote about. I've also been back at the end of Feb and had good skiing then too.

2. If the alpine is shut down, there is lots and lots of great tree sking. I've had 4-day tours there when we've hardly gotten into the alpine and not really missed it. The tree runs can be 1800 to 2000 ft. There are a number of very open burns at the lower elevations and open cut-blocks so "skiing the trees" can be a pretty wide-open affair.

3. Vertical is probably 10,000 to 12,000 ft/day. I think one of the groups last year had a 14,000 ft day, but I can't swear to that.
4. I've had about 8 trips to Chatter and about 4 trips to island Lake, over the years (I lose count). My success rate at Chatter has been 100%. That is, I have never had a poor day. At Island Lake my success rate was 50%, with half my days there either just so-so or downright "ugly".

I've had great days at Island Lake and I think their alpine skiing can be superb. When it's "on", it's really "on" I have not had the steep alpine runs at Chatter that I've had at Island Lake. However, there are areas at Chatter that I have not yet skied.

In 2003, which was a tough year for many areas, I had good trips to Chatter at the beginning and end of Feb. In between, I had a trip to Island Lake (a hangover from a cancellation two years prior) that was no fun at all. A couple of guys in my group went home after two days! Chatter is reasonably high, which helps. It also seems to be in a bit of a snow belt.

Island Lake is certainly nice when you get good snow. It's alpine skiing is had to beat. My own view is that, at Chatter, the alpine is a marvelous diversion, but the trees are my first love. Chatter has a glacier at almost 10,000 ft and the views are spectacular. It's wonderful intermediate skiing with good snow.

There are a wide variety of alpine areas but generally not as many consistently steep pitches as at Island Lake. I've certainly never been bored at Chatter. It's always great fun.
Compared with Island Lake, the Chatter tenure is huge. As I said above, there are areas that I have never skied and I have had quite a few trips there now. There are rumours that they will be expanding the tenure. They will certainly be opening up some new areas within their existing tenure.

At Chatter Creek, three of four years ago, I encountered 150cm of recent storm snow in the 2nd week of December. Lightest snow I've ever seen. It was so deep and so light it was a bit scary.

At Island Lake, I recall that a number of runs would funnel into the same pickup area and that the last few hundred yards of runs could be pretty tough with lots of tracked snow, slide alder, cat roads and other ugly stuff. Not so much of that at Chatter. In fact, almost none. \

I like the accommodation at Chatter. I never bought into the more expensive accommodation options at Island Lake and the washroom was always down the hall or downstairs. At Chatter it's "one price fits all" and that includes a bathroom (shower) in every double-occupancy bedroom. Hot tub is on a balcony just beyond the bedrooms. Very handy.

I've been organizing groups of friends for years, first to Island Lake and now to Chatter Creek. Many of the lads who ski with me have been at both places. We never really talk about it, but I have never had anyone suggest we go back. That is not to say they did not like Island Lake, but after 3 or 4 years, Chatter Creek is still meeting their needs. They're not bored yet!

If you look at the very bottom of the "Photos" page on the Chatter Web site, you will see three links to private albums containing pictures from my trip this past Jan/Feb.

http://www.backcountrywintervacations.c ... tures.html

I hope that addresses some of your questions.
 
Thanks for the informative answers. Chatter Creek is definitely "on my list now", possibly as soon as 2006. I think the word is out, as the prime mid-January to mid-March time for next year is already booked according to their website.

Island Lake is similarly tough, especially with the new policy for customers to renew their same weeks. I renewed for 2004 after 2003 but did not renew for 2005 because I got into Great Northern Snowcat for late next January.

My 2003 and 2004 dates at Island Lake were the beginning of February which should be prime for that area. In 2003 the lower half of terrain was definitely ugly from 2 rain events, but there was enough fresh on the upper half to keep us happy. I do know that there was a 2 week dry spell after we left and the upper terrain got tracked out, so I'm not surprised you had a subpar experience then.

I believe that Island Lake gets more snow (400+) than Chatter Creek (300+) but that the absence of rain, better preservation and even larger permit area would make Chatter Creek more reliable, particularly later in the season. Purely for deep snow, I think the Selkirks (500+) are the best bet in B.C. Great Northern is between the CMH Kootenay and Selkirk-Tangiers heli operations I have previously visited.

Island Lake still gets the edge for efficiency with those two 17K days I had in 1997. And it sounds like the terrain is a bit steeper than Chatter Creek on average.

Reservations are hard to come by at the famous snowcat areas we have discussed. Keep in mind there are some newer places where it might be easier to get in: Retallack, White Grizzly, Baldface, Valhalla and Monashee Powder Adventures.
 
Tony: Yes, I guess they are filling up. I would like to try the shoulder season some time. I mentioned one December tour that was first rate. In the last couple of years, as you well know, December has been a bit thin. Have you snowcat skied much in April? I'm thinking that Chatter could have it's good moments.

I had a real run-around at Island Lake with bookings, and that is what got me shifted to Chatter. I think that Island Lake has changed it's policy, but I don't know what it is.

Chatter seems to handle things in a very reasonable way, but it must be getting difficult to "break in" with a group. One's and two's are probably OK, if they book in Feb or March, but I think larger groups may now be difficult to get in.

I think that folks who book the shoulder season may get first crack at mid-season openings in the following year.

The memory plays tricks. I certainly remember some wonderfully steep pitches at the tops of a number of the alpine runs at Island Lake, but below those pitches, the average gradient was probably not that different from many alpine runs at Chatter. I'm hazy on that. Chatter has some great pitches in the sub-alpine. There is an open cut block that ends at the lodge door that is wonderful fun and a great end to a day.

Island Lake certainly is efficient. Those bowls are pretty compact and easy and quick to get to. The Chatter tenure is so much larger, one ends up going much further afield. However, you never ride for long without stopping to sample a new run. As you suggest, in periods of drought, Chatter has a lot of area to draw on.

I have never had the feeling at Chatter that the guides were more concerned with "farming" snow than in giving guests the best possible experience. Nor have I ever felt that we were being driven around to kill time.

You refer to a number of "newer places" How many are newer than Chatter? Baldface? I know that Monashee is expanding into a new tenure next year, but have they not been around for a while? I't my impression that Chatter has developed a very dedicated clientelle in about 4 years. I think they are doing something right! They've got my vote!

For me, a big part of the attraction at Chatter has been the owner/operators and their "significant others", who have all worked on site. The staff at Island Lake has always been first rate. (Who could forget Tyler's Caesars or Paul's guiding)) However, there is nothing to match the enthusiasm and concern and friendliness of owners who are struggling to create a success and who well understand that client satisfaction is the key. The work ethic among the Chatter owners is something to behold. Yet, they always have time to mix with the guests and chat. It's hard to visit Chatter and not come away feeling you have made new friends.
 
Chatter is clearly the "hot" new area for cat skiing, with that much buzz and advance booking after only 4 years. Island Lake has been around since 1987, Great Northern and Selkirk Wilderness since the mid-1970's. The latter two require full week bookings in prime season and are even tougher to get in. Due to my analysis of Selkirk weather, I think late January is quite safe, so I managed to get in the last week they allow half week trips. Great Northern has a 2-year renewal policy, which is perfect by my philosophy. If it lives up to its billing, I'd be happy to go every other year and sample other places in other seasons. I tried to get Island Lake to renew me every other year and they said no. But I will probably have first chance for a leftover spot in 2006 as a 3-time customer if I want. But at the moment I'm inclined to try to get into Chatter Creek first.

I somewhat disagree with your terrain analysis at Island Lake. The sustained steep pitches are in the trees. Alpine is similar to most that I have skied, steep for 300-500 vertical and then moderating.

I am very high on Island Lake's service, seeking the best terrain and snow, dealing effectively with divergent skier abilities, etc. They definitely farm snow, but that doesn't bother me as there has always been enough room for everybody. In the alpine it actually helps me sometimes, as in flat light I can ski a better line by making "8's" across someone's tracks.

I would be personally very skeptical about shoulder season snowcat skiing. The cost is too high to risk restricted terrain in early season or spring conditions late. I would only consider it with specific knowledge of the area. Since Chatter Creek goes up to 9,500 feet it's probably safe until the end of March, assuming enough terrain faces north. Some of the Selkirk areas could be safe early in January as they average over 200 inches snowfall before January 1. I think high altitude heliskiing with vastly larger terrain permits is worth considering well into April.

With regard to other B.C. cat operations I have the following observations:

I skied Retallack in January 2000: excellent terrain (elevation range 5,500-7,800) and snow but inefficient road system.

I skied CAT Powder Skiing in Revelstoke in February 1999: excellent snow in the huge season I was there but frontside terrain (south facing, 6,200-7,500) was not as interesting as the other places). You get a 5,000 vertical run at the end of the day, but the bottom is usually pretty ugly with the south exposure.

A Canadian NASJA member I know is very high on both White Grizzly and Monashee Powder Adventures. Both are very expert oriented with most runs being close to 3,000 vertical of demanding tree skiing. Monashee's accomodations are more rustic and it is thus somewhat of a bargain vs. other cat operators.

Red Mt. employee Dave Thomas also works at Baldface. His website http://www.unred.com has lots of info and pics from Baldface.
 
Tony
I think you are probably right about the pitches at Island Lake. My memory is a little hazy. I recall runs like '45' where we hiked a short ridge and had a great shot at the top. We stood, side by side, tails into the hill and looked down at the lodge between our skis, well back of the tips. Makes my spine tingle just thinking about it!

There certainly were steep lower pitches in the trees but it's some of those high pitches that stick in my mind. As I recall, a number of them started fairly steep and then mellowed out before dropping through some tree bands, as you say! It was sure great in good snow, although things sometimes got a little gnarly near the bottom and there were some not-so-good snow days.

All the variations in booking options and requirements and restrictions are interesting and a little depressing. Looks like a "seller's" market. Not necessarily good for consumers! I've spoken to a number of people at Chatter Creek who had been pretty fed up with booking arrangements at other areas and really appreciated Chatter's welcoming ways.

There seems to be a number of new heli-operators coming on stream. I wonder where saturation is. It seems the Liberals are much more willing to permit new tenures than the NDP were. Monashee opens a new area next year. Do you know of other new cat ski operations in the works? I think the market was off a bit this year for the backcountry operators, but not nearly as much as for some of the ski areas.

I looked at some of the Red Mt. pictures on Dave Thomas's site. Brought back memories. Spent lots of time there as a young buck (many years ago). What an amazing history that place has! It's developed some great skiers. A visit to the upstairs in the old lodge is a trip down memory lane. I've stayed there when the upstairs contained dorms.

I think it's going to be interesting to watch Chatter Creek develop. They seem to have lots of plans and lots of dedication and energy and enthusiasm to make things work. Let's hope for good winters to let all these operators succeed and develop their sites.

Happy days
 
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