Costs/Value of Skiing in Japan

[jamesdeluxe]

Trying to get my mind off the godawful news elsewhere on this forum :-( --

How has the strong dollar affected purchasing power in Japan? How much does a meal like that cost in dollars? What about lift tix, hotels, etc.?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Lift tickets are cheap, ~$50 a day at Niseko. Food is quite reasonable for the quality, particularly when you consider no tipping in Japan. That gourmet dinner at Lupicia was $68pp and would be twice that in the US. That stack of 18 sushi plates from the Otaru restaurant was ~$45. In the ski areas a big plate/bowl of ramen/curry with meat and veggies for lunch is $8-$10.

Hotels in Niseko are still a sticking point for price. Black Diamond Lodge is reasonable but it has shared baths, no onsen and is isolated in the evenings if you don't have a car. January tends to book up fast at BD especially if you want a long stay.

We had 4 people and online searches showed One Niseko Towers as the best deal. However it's off-site near Moiwa and I balked until October when we decided to rent a car. At that point we got 9 nights online via hotels.com for $2,600. The suite had living room, 2 separate bedrooms and a washer/dryer, though only one bath.

When we arrived at One Niseko Towers late January 10 we got in huge battle with management who claimed our booking was for only two people. I took a hard line position, as the 9-day online reservation had steeply discounted rates for the 6 midweek nights, with the standard rate for the suite being nearly $400. I feared any increase would be substantial. The hotel said we would only get breakfast vouchers for 2 people, and other services such as the onsen and ski area shuttle were also for 2 people (the latter items unenforceable IMHO). They even threatened to strip the bedding from one of the bedrooms.

Mary and Jenny got very nervous, so Mary went down to the front desk to negotiate. As I feared they originally wanted another $200/night but she eventually got them down to $615 extra for the entire stay. Mary and Jenny were not there the last night Jan. 18.

If you are at One Niseko Towers without a car, there are shuttles to Annupuri 2x in the morning and returning 3x in the afternoon. There is also one shuttle a day to/from Hirafu. In the evenings you are as isolated as at BD Lodge, limited to the hotel restaurant, where we never ate except for breakfast. Our suite has a kitchen and we ate in 5 nights, but the big Kutchan SuperValu market where we shopped is 25km away. Liz and Mary also took a day off skiing and drove to Otaru for sightseeing. The hotel onsen was excellent, and Mary and I each got a massage, which was also excellent and reasonable at ~$65 per hour.

For the car rental (a large 4WD Toyota Alphard van) we got a great deal via Jenny's brother Michael who lives in Sapporo. That was less than $50/day but probably would have been double that booked online from the U.S. And while on that subject, you are required to have an international driving permit to drive in Japan. This was easy for me at the auto club but may be a nuisance if you have to go to a DMV.

My guess is that lodging options like the car might be more reasonable booked locally. As the trip took shape last summer, it was never well defined how much of the time Michael might be around for local assistance. He got us that great car deal, but we never met him in person until they dropped by our Sapporo hotel Jan. 20.

Some heads-up about Hokkaido:
1) A surprising number of establishments don't take credit cards. This included Beef Impact in Sapporo.
2) Lots of local bank ATM's don't accept foreign cards. 7/11 is the best bet and what we used in both Furano and Sapporo.
3) Remember if you have a car that gas stations close at 8PM!

 

[jamesdeluxe]

When we arrived at One Niseko Towers late January 10 we got in huge battle with management who claimed our booking was for only two people.

They didn't send you any electronic correspondence that could confirm it one way or the other?

 

[Tony Crocker]

They didn't send you any electronic correspondence that could confirm it one way or the other?

It was a third party booking via hotels.com. I did not notice the printout said 2 people. I don't recall specifying that when I made the booking in October.

 

[Marc_C]

When we arrived at One Niseko Towers late January 10 we got in huge battle with management who claimed our booking was for only two people. I took a hard line position, as the 9-day online reservation had steeply discounted rates for the 6 midweek nights, with the standard rate for the suite being nearly $400. I feared any increase would be substantial.

It was a third party booking via hotels.com. I did not notice the printout said 2 people. I don't recall specifying that when I made the booking in October.

So you screwed up but decided to be obnoxious about it?

 

[jamesdeluxe]

So you screwed up but decided to be obnoxious about it?

When you're wrong, double down!

 

[Admin]

So you screwed up but decided to be obnoxious about it?

That was my thought as well.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Due to the initial online booking having steep discounts for 6 midweek dates I feared that conceding the point upfront would result in a huge increase. I was correct in that view as Mary was told it would be $200 extra per night. I concede being obnoxious and the "bad cop" in this process, but if being nice or apologetic would have resulted in $200 a night extra instead of $70 I believe I took the right approach. I strongly suspect admin would have done the same.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

 

[Marc_C]

Due to the initial online booking having steep discounts for 6 midweek dates I feared that conceding the point upfront would result in a huge increase. I was correct in that view as Mary was told it would be $200 extra per night. I concede being obnoxious and the "bad cop" in this process, but if being nice or apologetic would have resulted in $200 a night extra instead of $70 I believe I took the right approach. I strongly suspect admin would have done the same.

The point is, you screwed up and reserved for 2 people, then you were a dick about it.

 

[coldsmoke]

You have the coin to fly to Japan to go skiing but you had to rip off the hotel? The Ugly American if there ever was one.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have high confidence, based upon many years observation on these boards, that MarcC would have been every bit as much of a "dick" as I was if he had made the same mistake.

I was responsible here for not only our costs but those for two other people. Coldsmoke is welcome to tell us if, after paying $2600 for the room, he would have forked over another $1800 without complaint.

 

[EMSC]

My first thought was same as Coldsmoke. Basically "you have $10K to go ski Japan but not a couple hundred for the additional room?"

But also quickly came to the conclusion that unlike the way so many of us westerners are trained growing up.... A LOT more things in life are negotiable than you think. If the hotel accepted the extra $70/night, then it must have been OK with them.

Interesting situation from both points of view though...

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Props to Tony for having the guts to tell this story on a public forum. I hadn't considered the angle mentioned by EMSC.

Glass half full: at least he knows that people are actually reading his TRs!

 

[Marc_C]

I have high confidence, based upon many years observation on these boards, that MarcC would have been every bit as much of a "dick" as I was if he had made the same mistake.

No. I'm willing to admit and own my mistakes. And not to be obnoxious when I'm a guest in another country.
You booked for two people, not four.

 

[coldsmoke]

$1800 / 4 people = $450 a person. Not a lot of $ considering what was spent on the whole trip. If the hotel was threatening to remove the sheets, the argument must have got pretty ugly.

Coldsmoke is welcome to tell us if, after paying $2600 for the room, would have forked over another $1800 without complaint.

I would have booked for 4 people back in the fall.

 

[Marc_C]

I was responsible here for not only our costs but those for two other people. Coldsmoke is welcome to tell us if, after paying $2600 for the room, would have forked over another $1800 without complaint.

What you did was attempted theft of services. You tried to not pay for half of your party.

 

[lizardqueen]

making a note now to never to use Marc_C or coldsmoke as travel agents

 

[Tony Crocker]

Returning to the original question,

How has the strong dollar affected purchasing power in Japan?

Not to mention

Basically "you have $10K to go ski Japan.........?"

Here are the costs of the trip per person:
We cashed in 70K FF miles per person for this, as James often does for his Euro trips.

Share of car rental, gas, an airport train at the end: $350
Lodging: $1,060
Lifts: $735
Black Diamond tours: $1,175
Total $3,320

If you pay for air that could be another $1,200. But if you chose not to hire guides for 4 days as we did you could take off $500pp.

So say $4,000+ for 12 days of skiing. Compare to this year's Diamond Dogs Euro trip to Solden in Austria, $2,050 for lodging, transport and 6 days of potential skiing including airfare and 7 dinners but not lift tickets.

Japan is overall not an out-of-line ski destination pricewise. I'll bet lots of easterners take a ski week in the American West for $2,000+ per person.

I got the same quality of skiing that you've been getting in Japan without 21 hours of travel in each direction and tens of thousands of dollars in expenses.

Cost exaggeration noted. But the comment illustrates my point. We got 40% impressive quality powder on this trip with dead average January Niseko snowfall, which is about what admin gets cherry-picking his ski time living 22 minutes from the gold standard of North American powder. For those less fortunately domiciled, advance booked trips to North American destination resorts will score maybe 10-15% powder over the long run and negligible powder in 1/4 to over 1/2 of weeks depending upon specific resort (I have a ton of data to back this up). So if powder is a priority to you and you can't make last minute calls to chase it, I say Japan is a fairly cost effective destination.

 

[Tony Crocker]

unlike the way so many of us westerners are trained growing up.... A LOT more things in life are negotiable than you think.

In the Internet Age with dynamic pricing, everything is negotiable. If you don't exercise due diligence these days and just show up somewhere you can sometimes get taken to the cleaners. Like day skiing at a Vail Resort for example. :lol:

In this instance I got out my printout at the hotel and fully expected just to see an invoice/receipt with no mention at all of number of people. After all, who books a 2-bedroom suite with 4 beds plus a living room pullout for just 2 people? So yes, I was surprised to see 2 people listed on that printout. And also, who charges $100 per person per night for an extra person on a hotel reservation? My gut reaction at the time (late check-in after a marathon drive with no dinner and almost running out of gas) was that the hotel was looking for an excuse to take back the steep midweek discount quoted on hotels.com.

I would have booked for 4 people back in the fall.

I thought I did. I may have a faulty memory, but again it seems strange to book a suite that large for only two. So given the late arrival and responsibility for others than just Liz and me, I just wanted to get us into our room expeditiously. I did not make a scene at the front desk but suggested they investigate the booking with expedia/hotels.com.

$450 a person. Not a lot of $ considering what was spent on the whole trip.

This strikes me as an ivory tower comment. I've traveled with many people including several on FTO. Most of them would fight like dogs over a last minute charge of that magnitude.

At any rate Japan has a mix of high and low costs. Taxis are another one of the high ones. We didn't have the car the last night and it would have cost nearly $40RT to go to the Okonomi Yaki restaurant just 3km down the road.

The bottom line IMHO is that Hokkaido is one of those destinations where having a car is worthwhile.
1) Navigation is not that daunting when you have a smartphone with Google Maps.
2) Our local contacts Chris and Jenny's brother Mike seem to view Hirafu where most tourists stay as overpriced and not that great restaurant quality. The car allows you to eat at better/more authentic places outside the immediate resort areas. Lodging costs can be similarly cut down. We were in Hokkaido coincident with another tour http://www.epicski.com/t/144579/japow-h ... -tour-2016 and the leader Matt makes comments about attractive lodging prices outside the resort and at some local Aussie-run places.
3) You can eat in to save some $ and find some quite interesting Japanese food to do that. But the big market is in Kutchan and you need a car to go there.
4) Niseko is the best ski mountain by far but the culture is perhaps more Aussie than Japanese. If you're in Hokkaido for awhile, you may want to get out to some of the smaller places and you need a car to do that.

The alternative is to hire guides like Black Diamond or Adventure Project (EpicForum reference above). This will drive up the cost but is particularly essential if you want to do some backcountry as well as resort skiing.

As far as responding to MarcC insults on FTO, I recommend heeding the advice of George Bernard Shaw:

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.