General Cat Skiing Questions

[Staley]

These questions are almost completely hypothetical as I certainly don't have the money to go cat skiing without persuading my parents. I've been reading all the cat skiing reports from BC and was a bit confused by a few things. I consider myself to be a pretty good powder skier. Moreover, I like to make really big turns and go fast (I'm comfortable skiing the top of Mammoth in 8 turns).

Clearly, some of the skiers on these cat trips, such as Adam, are far better than me. Nevertheless, it seems from the pictures that most people are making small turns. Also, if the tracks are not Euro-style paralleling each other perfectly, many of the tracks seem to cross. I'm sure this is due to avalanche risk, but if you're skiing lower angle terrain anyways, surely it shouldn't be too dangerous. Do the guides force everyone to ski slowly and in a narrow path down the hill?

I just ask because if I'm going to spend $600-800 on a day of skiing, I certainly want to be making completely untracked turns of whatever size I choose.

EDIT: Rereading this, it comes off as very self-centered. I'm more wondering if a day of cat skiing in BC is better than a powder day at one of the really uncrowded resorts (Red, Castle, etc.). It's obviously the main way to get powder a week after a storm, but is 15K vertical feet of not-too-steep powder for $600 with a cat operation really better than 30K of ski wherever you want, however fast you want, and however steep you want at a small resort powder day for $60?

 

[EMSC]

A lot of factors in the tracks you see from cat trips.

avi danger, leaving some fresh space for the next group, weather factors, size of the available acreage for the particular operator to roam, terrain traps or possibilities for guests to stray too far and get lost or injured, etc...

Some places are strict about sticking close to the guides tracks, others less so but varies by the factors above, etc... Also true that due to avi protocol the sections or length before grouping up again before the next section can be shorter than you might wish.

You are in a tough spot for cat skiing. I don't think thee are any that operate in California are there? I'd think the best way for you to find out if cat skiing is for you is to do a day trip with a cat operator while on a longer resort skiing trip. Plus daily cat operations are a bit cheaper than doing a full fledged cat trip. A lot of day operators can be in the $250-$400 per day range. Certainly not cheap, but if only for a day....

 

[Staley]

Thanks for the reply. I think heli and cat skiing isn't allowed in California. I was just thinking that if I can convince my dad to go on somewhat of a roadtrip in interior BC (as many people here have done), it might be worth looking into a day or two of cat skiing. I suppose that for myself, it would be very important to look into each operation to better understand their procedures. Acreage would certainly be very important so snow "farming" isn't necessary, as would their attitude about safety. As long as they are conservative about slope choice (and it seems they always are), avalanche risk shouldn't be so high that someone can't usually go 20-30 feet to the side. Obviously, terrain traps are a concern, but in the pictures I saw, exposures didn't seem particularly bad. Also, even in fairly tight trees, I'm not going to get lost if I spread out a little bit.

I'm unsure about the liability of cat operators, but I'm assuming that guests have to sign forms that accept liability for avalanches, getting lost, etc. All of the cat operators seem very proud about their safety records, but in my view, skiing is inherently risky, and I'm willing to take those risks in order to have fun. Cat skiing is supposed to be about great powder skiing without the stress of zooming around a resort and having to time everything perfectly. However, having to follow the tracks of the guide and stay in one small line seems perhaps equally stressful to me.

When I see pictures of people with guides in the un-Avi controlled areas of European resorts, they are not following the guide's tracks exactly, but instead using his local knowledge to access the best, reasonably safe off-piste terrain. I don't know if it's a fair comparison due to the lack of a guide, but I never see groups on the TGR forums lay down parallel tracks in the backcountry.

Regarding a single day of cat skiing, I have a few more questions. For multiple day trips, the first day always has some safety procedures that greatly cut down on the amount of vertical that day. $300 is obviously far more reasonable than $600, but am I only going to get 10K of vertical by doing a single day trip?

 

[socal]

I don't know if it's a fair comparison due to the lack of a guide, but I never see groups on the TGR forums lay down parallel tracks in the backcountry.

Not sure about TGR, but at Solitude and Brighton where you can really see a lot of the side country my girlfriend commented about how cool it was that all the tracks out there were right next to each other. Having never skied in the backcountry or with a guide it seems to me that laying down "parallel tracks" isn't too uncommon.

 

[rfarren]

A lot of day operators can be in the $250-$400 per day range. Certainly not cheap, but if only for a day....

I thought about doing that at Vail pass or Steamboat during this last trip but it was unnecessary being as there was fresh snow almost every day I was out there. Even the day after a storm it wouldn't have been worth when you consider the amount of side-country and tree skiing I did this last trip. I would have done it if it had snowed 2 days before I arrived and there wasn't favorable weather ahead.

 

[Staley]

About the parallel tracks, some people definitely love doing it, and I believe there's one guy in Alta who will put 10 right next to each other on Superior. I, on the other hand, hate having to turn at a specific spot, and would rather vary my turn size throughout a run. Sure, my tracks won't look as pretty or even, but I'll have more fun.

However, the parallel tracks comment was more about safety. Parallel tracks allow a large number of people to ski untracked snow while still keeping to a compact area. I'm just wondering if it's really a necessary safety measure on meadow-skipping style slopes that probably aren't steep enough to slide with any sort of frequency.

 

[Admin]

Farming snow is just good etiquette, whether on a cat trip, skinning in the backcountry or even on lift-served terrain. It maximizes the powder experience for those who come later.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I disagree in general on the "adjacent to resort" cat skiing. Terrain and snowfall rarely compare to the remote lodges in B.C. Exceptions might be Targhee and Blue Sky near Steamboat for snow and Mt. Bailey in Oregon for terrain.

Moreover, I like to make really big turns and go fast

That is very much Adam's style. This to me translates as a preference for alpine vs. tree skiing. Of course the alpine is where you get the snow stability issues and much of the time they are not going to let you ski the steepest lines, as EMSC noted. If you have a strong preference for alpine vs. trees I recommend heli over snowcat and Alaska in particular, which has both steeper lines and a more stable snowpack than the Rockies. In some sense you get what you pay for, because a good day in the heli will cost about the same per vertical foot skied as a good day in a snowcat.

In interior B.C. the perception among both operators and customers is that the tree skiing is more demanding and expert-oriented. Thus the warnings and reputation of CMH Monashees. The snowcat counterpart is probably White Grizzly http://www.whitegrizzly.com. White Grizzly (just one cat) advertises its expert orientation and fast pace (average 16K per day which is a lot for tree skiing).

My view from dealing with advance commitments is that I want both alpine and tree skiing to be available as the recent weather may favor one of the other. The list of snowcat operators in B.C. with abundant alpine terrain is short, and no coincidence consists of the 3 places I have skied the most.
Island Lake lodge http://www.islandlakecatskiing.com/ near Fernie is ~1/3 alpine, though most of my skiing there has been alpine due to lesser quality snow lower down. First class operation all the way but Fernie's climate with frequent low elevation rain is a big risk factor for advance bookings. They have three cats but on a few of my days have run only two. Island Lake now openly advertises last minute deals when they are not full. I have skied 11 days in 4 seasons with average vertical of ~14K/day.
Chatter Creek http://www.chattercreek.ca/ is where I've made advance reservation the past 4 years. They are the safest place in terms of snow conditions, being in a colder climate zone and with a glacier nearly 2,000 feet above any other Canadian cat ski operator's highest elevation. Majority of terrain is alpine. The layout of extensive terrain (55,000 acres, largest in the business) seems to result in longer cat rides and shorter runs than some places, as I've skied 16 days in 4 seasons with average vertical of 10,800 per day. Access is by helicopter so trips are necessarily 3 or 4 days fixed well in advance. Even this year bookings for the 3 cats were very strong (half of Jan/Feb tours in 2011 are already sold out) so I do not envision discounts being available.
Mustang Powder http://www.mustangpowder.com/default.htm I first visited this year. Most of the skiing I did was alpine due to nice weather and a stable snowpack. Nonetheless I suspect the tree skiing is very good as the Monashees are renowned for that and Mustang (they run 2 cats) is in a very snowy microclimate. I skied 50K in 3 days, aided somewhat by their early start/late finish policy (also used by White Grizzly). They offered a 25% discount during the 2 weeks before a tour if not sold out, but as of now next year's advance bookings look even stronger than Chatter Creek's.

Yes, you always sign a bunch of release forms. The first day at Mustang doing the transceiver drills cost us 2 runs and about 3K vertical.

With regard to the tight lines it varies. If acreage is limited or it hasn't snowed in awhile they may want it tight enough to allow a second run by your or another group. Sometimes there is a hazard so the guide skis at one edge of it and wants everyone on the other side of his tracks. In fair or poor visibility (common with chronic cloudiness in Canada) I like to ski next to someone's tracks for better orientation. But if you look at my report from Mustang this year under ideal conditions we had plenty of room to choose our lines.

Also, even in fairly tight trees, I'm not going to get lost if I spread out a little bit.

You'd be surprised. I've seen people or groups get separated a few times (and been the culprit myself twice ). Therefore regrouping in the trees is more frequent and vertical tends to be less than in the alpine, particularly heliskiing. But don't sell the trees short. The sick, over the head powder, is much more likely to happen in the trees.

Realistically, given your location and expressed preferences, Mt. Bailey http://www.catskimtbailey.com/ is probably the best place for you to try snowcat skiing first. Prices are reasonable, terrain is expert oriented and primarily alpine. Snow is abundant (close to 500 inches per data at nearby Crater Lake) but would be similar to Mammoth or Mt. Bachelor in density. Mt. Bailey is 2+ hours drive from Sunriver/Bend but realistically you need to stay onsite at Diamond Lake because they want you available at 7AM. Diamond Lake lodging and food is very basic, far from the luxury amenities at the remote Canadian lodges.

 

[Staley]

Thanks for the detailed reply Tony. Mt. Bailey looks great, but it's just too far from anything to really be feasible for me. Reading through your reports, I liked the look of Mustang Powder the most, and now after looking through White Grizzly's website, it also looks excellent. Although they advertise standby day skiing, it seems as if it would be a lot of really early morning driving.

You're right that I generally prefer alpine terrain to trees, but if the snow is better in the trees, I'd rather be there. Chatter Creek looks like a great operation with a huge amount of varied terrain, but the Heli access and low vertical totals seem to make it more expensive and less accessible for short trips (as you noted).

 

[Tony Crocker]

Mt. Bailey looks great, but it's just too far from anything to really be feasible for me.

Certainly more accessible than most of the Canadian places. Mt. Bailey/Mt. Bachelor is not that difficult even for a short trip if you fly into Redmond. With a week you could even drive it from SoCal to save up some $ for the cat skiing.

White Grizzly is in the least accessible part of interior B.C. It's 5+ hours by slow road from Spokane. Or a ferry crossing + 2-3 hours from Revelstoke, with the latter being 4 1/2 hours from Calgary or 2 1/2 from Kelowna as your airport choices. If you come from Spokane for at least a week Red and Whitewater are on the way to White Grizzly. Along with a lot of other snowcat options.

 

[rfarren]

Tony, if your going to spend the money on a week of cat skiing, why not pay the little extra and go out to the chugach for some heli skiing.

 

[Staley]

The trip I'm looking at that could possibly include cat skiing would be somewhat of a tour of inland BC areas, starting (and ending?) in Spokane. My family, and especially my mom, love to plan ahead, so the only way this type of trip could happen would be if I went alone with my dad, which is highly unlikely. Still, that's the type of trip where I could imagine going cat skiing for a day or two, especially since the family wouldn't be holed up at a single resort for a week.

 

[tseeb]

There is snowcat skiing in California, between Squaw and Sugar Bowl, with access road next to the dump south of Truckee off CA 89.
See http://www.pacificcrestsnowcats.com/
Their season ends early as the road they use to get the cats to the snow melts out. I was supposed to go with them a couple of years ago, but they did not go that day as condtions were not up to their standards. Resort skiing the same day at Sugar Bowl was OK. Average vertical of runs is 1200 feet, with some runs up to 1500.

 

[Aukai]

Kirkwood also offers cat skiing, no?

 

[tseeb]

Expedition Kirkwood has a passenger snowcat with O'Neil advertising on it, but I didn't think it was widely used for skiing. Searching for snowcat on their website I found that future plans include "The installation of a surface tow up Red Cliffs, behind the existing Day Lodge, allowing easier access to terrain currently served by snowcat. " This is west-facing so it's not prime skiing unless immediately after a dump, althought there is east and north facing terrain on the backside that drops into Caples Lake.

Futher searching found the following at http://www.kirkwood.com/pages/expeditio ... ountry.asp
POWDER CAT TOURS
Powder Cat Tours, California’s only resort based cat skiing operation, operates in two areas: Martin Point and Red Cliffs. Expedition Guides and Pro Patrollers lead groups on four runs of fresh turns. Avalanche beacons, probes and backpacks will be provided, guests are encouraged to bring own gear if they have it. Daily expeditions are weather dependent; the location will be determined by snow conditions. Open to skiers and riders, advanced and up. Guests will recieve four runs per session.

Powder Cat Tours operates when conditions permit as determined by guides and ski patrol; cat holds eleven guests. Tours fill up quickly, so guests are encouraged to book in advance. Groups of eight or more can reserve private cat trip seven days a week; advance reservations required. Best advice: keep an eye on the long range weather forecast and book accordingly!

Red Cliffs Tour: $150 per person
Martin Point Tour: $200 per person