Jackson Hole to Retire Aerial Tram
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I personally would shed no tears for the retirement of that tram. It needs to be at least Squaw/Snowbird in capacity. Very analogous mountains.
The more interesting question is whether to replace with a couple of high speed chairs or gondolas. 2-stage gondola like Mammoth might make sense.
One anecdote I heard in 1995 was that the tram could run in higher winds (55MPH) than the Sublette Chair (35MPH). So the new lift(s) should be designed to handle winds as well as the old tram.
The more interesting question is whether to replace with a couple of high speed chairs or gondolas. 2-stage gondola like Mammoth might make sense.
One anecdote I heard in 1995 was that the tram could run in higher winds (55MPH) than the Sublette Chair (35MPH). So the new lift(s) should be designed to handle winds as well as the old tram.
awf170
New member
this looks pretty good and can handle a lot of winds
http://www.doppelmayr.com/default.asp?lid=2&frs=210
http://www.doppelmayr.com/default.asp?lid=2&frs=210
Extensive discussion of the JH tram issue here: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=27875
Some people mentioned that when Rendezvous Bowl had a surface lift, it became a mass of somewhat unpleasant moguls. Rendezvous Bowl has the same SE exposure that plagues most of Jackson Hole, but the snow tends to be pretty nice up there most of the time due to cold temps and limited skier density. So I'm coming around to the view that a Squaw/Snowbird type tram might be the appropriate replacement.
Some people mentioned that when Rendezvous Bowl had a surface lift, it became a mass of somewhat unpleasant moguls. Rendezvous Bowl has the same SE exposure that plagues most of Jackson Hole, but the snow tends to be pretty nice up there most of the time due to cold temps and limited skier density. So I'm coming around to the view that a Squaw/Snowbird type tram might be the appropriate replacement.
ChrisC
Well-known member
I'm glad that the tram will be gone too.
Notice they provided every fact about it in the price release except how many skiers per hour? If the Snowbird/Squaw trams carry about 100 people per car which results in 1000 skiers/hr......the Jackson tram must only had a capacity of 600 skiers/hr. That is probably similar to the capacity of the Single Chair at Mad River Glen. I think that is too low.
Overall, it was a giant bottleneck. You really did not ski the 4000 vertical ft Jackson has to offer -- maybe once or twice. Generally, you were yo-yo-ing the upper mounatin lifts like Thunder and Sublette. Nice, but not great. During trips to Jackson in regular season, I typically encountered lines generally between 45 to 60 min.
The worst Jackson experience was a warmer storm where the bottom 1/3 of the mountain received rain. The winds closed Sublette. Thunder was the only lift totally above the rain line and had 20-30 min wait. The Tram had about a 1.5 hr wait due to ski schools, ski camps, patrollers, tourists, etc. Not fun.
I have seen short tram lines in late March.
I agree.....Probably a new higher capacity tram is needed. Not anything higher capacity. Jackson probably wants to restrict capacity skiing the lower faces like the Hobacks and the like, as well as the Rendezvous Bowl.
Maybe a lower capacity funitel like the one at Squaw.
Notice they provided every fact about it in the price release except how many skiers per hour? If the Snowbird/Squaw trams carry about 100 people per car which results in 1000 skiers/hr......the Jackson tram must only had a capacity of 600 skiers/hr. That is probably similar to the capacity of the Single Chair at Mad River Glen. I think that is too low.
Overall, it was a giant bottleneck. You really did not ski the 4000 vertical ft Jackson has to offer -- maybe once or twice. Generally, you were yo-yo-ing the upper mounatin lifts like Thunder and Sublette. Nice, but not great. During trips to Jackson in regular season, I typically encountered lines generally between 45 to 60 min.
The worst Jackson experience was a warmer storm where the bottom 1/3 of the mountain received rain. The winds closed Sublette. Thunder was the only lift totally above the rain line and had 20-30 min wait. The Tram had about a 1.5 hr wait due to ski schools, ski camps, patrollers, tourists, etc. Not fun.
I have seen short tram lines in late March.
I agree.....Probably a new higher capacity tram is needed. Not anything higher capacity. Jackson probably wants to restrict capacity skiing the lower faces like the Hobacks and the like, as well as the Rendezvous Bowl.
Maybe a lower capacity funitel like the one at Squaw.
Patrick
Well-known member
As I see, not many of you are not wild or nostalgic about the Tram. Does this sound stupid?
Jackson Hole long been on my short list of US place to visit, now that the tram is being retired... I am thinking of going. Did the Big Spruce chair at Stowe last spring, why not the Tram?
Decisions:
1) Work will probably not allow vacation in March/April (maybe February).
2) I would be flying on points.
SLC or Jackson Hole requires the same number of Aeroplan points (Air Canada).
Jackson Hole requires 30% less AirMiles points than SLC. The other part is that AirMiles is changing it's points structure :x , if I reserved after October 1st - a JH flight will cost me 50% more points.
I hate to make commitments so early, however due to points and work - I might have to make a quick decision. Ah yes, I also need to convince the home front.
I saw from Tony website that late January or early February would be the good time.
Any opinions on the timing or wanting to use the Tram before it retires? Is it really that bad? Should I go Jackson this year or go elsewhere?
Jackson Hole long been on my short list of US place to visit, now that the tram is being retired... I am thinking of going. Did the Big Spruce chair at Stowe last spring, why not the Tram?
Decisions:
1) Work will probably not allow vacation in March/April (maybe February).
2) I would be flying on points.
SLC or Jackson Hole requires the same number of Aeroplan points (Air Canada).
Jackson Hole requires 30% less AirMiles points than SLC. The other part is that AirMiles is changing it's points structure :x , if I reserved after October 1st - a JH flight will cost me 50% more points.
I hate to make commitments so early, however due to points and work - I might have to make a quick decision. Ah yes, I also need to convince the home front.
I saw from Tony website that late January or early February would be the good time.
Any opinions on the timing or wanting to use the Tram before it retires? Is it really that bad? Should I go Jackson this year or go elsewhere?
I'll confess that my opinion is biased, but I'm not really fond of Jackson's exposure or low base elevation. That's all I'll say on that subject.
However, why not wrap both into one trip? It may sound crazy, but with dry roads Jackson and SLC are only about 5 hours apart. Why not fly into one, ski both, and fly back from the other?
However, why not wrap both into one trip? It may sound crazy, but with dry roads Jackson and SLC are only about 5 hours apart. Why not fly into one, ski both, and fly back from the other?
ChrisC
Well-known member
Definitely try Jackson! Although the tram is a bottleneck from an efficiency point of view, it is a classic lift. A bit of a crime that the only 4000 vertical ft lift in the US will be gone. Furthermore, it sounds like Jackson does not know what the replacement is yet -- so top-to-bottom access might be questionable for a year.
The mountain is definitely one of the most impressive in the US -- especially for experts. It's right up there with Whistler, Snowbird, Alta, Mammoth, and Squaw. Definitely bring backcountry gear too! Places like Cody Bowl, etc should not be missed.
Flights to Jackson are relatively expensive, so it would be a good choice for points. SLC is one the cheaper ski destinations to fly to on the West Coast becuase it's a major city like Denver. If it costs fewer miles to get to Jackson than SLC, definitely use the miles to Jackson
When to go? I agree with Tony -- Jan/early Feb would probably be your best bet considering the mountain's southest exposure. Generally, December/January are among the snowiest months, pretty cloudy and recieve the least direct sun. My experience iin March was spring conditions of the bottom 2/3 with packed powder on the top. The mountain probably needs a 70-80" base to be 100% open.
Tram crowds. Weekdays in Jan/early Feb might be a good bet. There definitely seems to be some weekend crowds. The mountain sells a weekend only pass that seemed popular with the locals. Also, certain ski camps/groups/lessons can get priority for the tram.
You definitely have to plan a day at Grand Targhee while at Jackson. It's not the steepest place, but a great powder playground on upper intermediate terrain.
The mountain is definitely one of the most impressive in the US -- especially for experts. It's right up there with Whistler, Snowbird, Alta, Mammoth, and Squaw. Definitely bring backcountry gear too! Places like Cody Bowl, etc should not be missed.
Flights to Jackson are relatively expensive, so it would be a good choice for points. SLC is one the cheaper ski destinations to fly to on the West Coast becuase it's a major city like Denver. If it costs fewer miles to get to Jackson than SLC, definitely use the miles to Jackson
When to go? I agree with Tony -- Jan/early Feb would probably be your best bet considering the mountain's southest exposure. Generally, December/January are among the snowiest months, pretty cloudy and recieve the least direct sun. My experience iin March was spring conditions of the bottom 2/3 with packed powder on the top. The mountain probably needs a 70-80" base to be 100% open.
Tram crowds. Weekdays in Jan/early Feb might be a good bet. There definitely seems to be some weekend crowds. The mountain sells a weekend only pass that seemed popular with the locals. Also, certain ski camps/groups/lessons can get priority for the tram.
You definitely have to plan a day at Grand Targhee while at Jackson. It's not the steepest place, but a great powder playground on upper intermediate terrain.
Yea, i've been to jackson twice.
The first time was my freshman year BC ski trip. 100 of us at cowboy village partying and skiing, great snow that year, was a fantastic trip.
Went the winter before last and stayed at a girl's parent's vacation home. This trip from a ski perspective was disaster, it hadn't snowed in about 2 months and was warm as hell (rained a few times in the valley while we were there).
These two trips highlighted the highs and lows of JCMR. On a good week, with lots of snow and cold temps, the mountain can't be beat, the amount of backcountry access and in-bounds terrain that doesn't get skied off is incredible, in addition to the general difficulty of the overall mountain.
However, during the bad year, it makes you realize how small an area it is. When the snow quality is bad, it really isn't woth the money to hit it up. I'll admit, i don't particularly enjoy skiing off piste on less than 'good' conditions. The problem with Jackson is that it is a mountain that is geared towards off trail skiing, and on days when a groomed run is the only thing enjoyable, ski's like a very small mountain as some parts only have 1 or 2 groomed runs for the entire lift. This, fact, with the warm temperatures, turned even runs that were nice fast cruisers in the morning into crap with mini-moguls by mid-day. Fun for a little but when you pay $70 for a lift ticket to ski a selection of 10 groomed runs it just isn't worth it. Due to the rain we got and lack of snow for a while the chutes, glades, and pretty much anything not groomed was barely skiable. Targhee was a little better snow quality but off-trail was the same crap.
my $.02 cents send checks payable to...
The first time was my freshman year BC ski trip. 100 of us at cowboy village partying and skiing, great snow that year, was a fantastic trip.
Went the winter before last and stayed at a girl's parent's vacation home. This trip from a ski perspective was disaster, it hadn't snowed in about 2 months and was warm as hell (rained a few times in the valley while we were there).
These two trips highlighted the highs and lows of JCMR. On a good week, with lots of snow and cold temps, the mountain can't be beat, the amount of backcountry access and in-bounds terrain that doesn't get skied off is incredible, in addition to the general difficulty of the overall mountain.
However, during the bad year, it makes you realize how small an area it is. When the snow quality is bad, it really isn't woth the money to hit it up. I'll admit, i don't particularly enjoy skiing off piste on less than 'good' conditions. The problem with Jackson is that it is a mountain that is geared towards off trail skiing, and on days when a groomed run is the only thing enjoyable, ski's like a very small mountain as some parts only have 1 or 2 groomed runs for the entire lift. This, fact, with the warm temperatures, turned even runs that were nice fast cruisers in the morning into crap with mini-moguls by mid-day. Fun for a little but when you pay $70 for a lift ticket to ski a selection of 10 groomed runs it just isn't worth it. Due to the rain we got and lack of snow for a while the chutes, glades, and pretty much anything not groomed was barely skiable. Targhee was a little better snow quality but off-trail was the same crap.
my $.02 cents send checks payable to...
Patrick
Well-known member
ChrisC":rpa069z1 said:
That why I'm considering it carefully. The Aeroplan (Air Canada) points don't make a distinction between long continental trips, however Air Miles point structure is broken down by zones. In current zone (until October 1st), States north (including Wyoming) are much cheaper (1,950 points required) than SLC (2,800?). If I reserve after that date, everything is increasing (JH: 3,150 vs SLC 3,450). The points numbers aren't exact, but in that range.
Backcountry gear? What that :?: :wink: I'm from the East, don't have any backcountry gear. Fudge, I don't even have FAT skis. I will probably travel solo once again, so I don't think I will be going backcountry.
nymous":rpa069z1 said:
That what I don't like about reserving so early in the year. Reserving late has the advantage of knowing what type of year it is.
I haven't ruled that one out.Admin":rpa069z1 said:
Yeck, I've done a Ottawa-Ste.Anne-MRG-Ottawa in 3 days this year.
Or the classic combo :roll: : Ottawa-Whiteface-Montreal-Ste.Anne-Massif-Montreal-Glen-Montreal-Ottawa in 4 days back in 2001.
awf170
New member
personally i think it will a total zoo, It seems like everyone advanced skiier in the country will be there. Every single forum there are a ton of people talking of going. I would go after they retire the tram, it will probably be dead 
But I do understand wanting to ride the tram, so i would say first 2 days jackson hole next 1 day targee then leftover time SLC
But I do understand wanting to ride the tram, so i would say first 2 days jackson hole next 1 day targee then leftover time SLC
Just to make a small contribution to the "zoo," next year's NASJA Western Winter Summit is in Jackson Jan. 26-30. I was actually elated to hear this because all 3 of my previous Jackson visits have been mid-February or later, with the crappy off-piste snow conditions that I have lamented numerous times here on FTO.
It was speculated on at least one of the other forums that "retire the tram" is a very effective marketing tool to pump next year's attendance. But I think the marketing damage of Jackson not having 4,000 lift-serviced vertical for a season or more is more serious. I would expect some of our NASJA members to make pointed inquiries of our hosts next January.
Jackson's snowfall is pretty high, so I would not dissuade Patrick from booking before Oct. 1 with the cheap points, provided it's for no later than early February.
It was speculated on at least one of the other forums that "retire the tram" is a very effective marketing tool to pump next year's attendance. But I think the marketing damage of Jackson not having 4,000 lift-serviced vertical for a season or more is more serious. I would expect some of our NASJA members to make pointed inquiries of our hosts next January.
Jackson's snowfall is pretty high, so I would not dissuade Patrick from booking before Oct. 1 with the cheap points, provided it's for no later than early February.
bzn to jh 3hrs sunny all day, 5 in winter storm.
glad i'm beating all of you to jh this yr. hitting it up early jan after the new yr......depending on when and where they can fit me into a room. :wink: if JH is too busy for me then i'll just go up to the pass instead.
sublette gets to just about everything up there minus an easier traverse to access some bc over there in cody, a little windblown snowfield, and ski down access to corbets. so a little hiking is involved with getting to corbets, and cody access may require skins. :roll: traffic will be spread all over the mtn and not all standing around at the tram. why people don't want to take a few runs on there way up to the top, and just stand around in line is beyond me. it's about turns, not standing around so you can get to the top in one shot. IMO. to much hype, i think. with no line or very short line(5-10min), of course, it's definately worth it.
just don't go down to the base of the gange after you get out of there on busier times of the season (Jan-early Feb).
glad i'm beating all of you to jh this yr. hitting it up early jan after the new yr......depending on when and where they can fit me into a room. :wink: if JH is too busy for me then i'll just go up to the pass instead.
sublette gets to just about everything up there minus an easier traverse to access some bc over there in cody, a little windblown snowfield, and ski down access to corbets. so a little hiking is involved with getting to corbets, and cody access may require skins. :roll: traffic will be spread all over the mtn and not all standing around at the tram. why people don't want to take a few runs on there way up to the top, and just stand around in line is beyond me. it's about turns, not standing around so you can get to the top in one shot. IMO. to much hype, i think. with no line or very short line(5-10min), of course, it's definately worth it.
just don't go down to the base of the gange after you get out of there on busier times of the season (Jan-early Feb).
I went to the Jackson Hole press reception on Wednesday in NYC, and the CEO implied that state and private money would be funding the $20 million replacement tram.
He also said that there will be interim access to the top of Rendezvous through a surface lift or snowcat.
He also said that there will be interim access to the top of Rendezvous through a surface lift or snowcat.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Sounds like this "Tram Removal" is a cold, calculated move.
Seems like threatening removal without replacement of an icon:
1. might increase visitors for a year
2. Most Importantly, get public financing for the project
I can understant some public financing for projects like Silver Mt's big gondola in economically challenged areas. However, Jackson is not 'challenged' -- quite wealthy (celebs, V-POTUS, etc) and must have made quite a bit on real estate dlvpmt recently.
Oh well, it's not like WY was going to have to build a sports franchise stadium anytime soon.
I do not think Jackson will be a zoo. Maybe skier days can increase 5%. This past year had poor conditions for much of the season and it was a record year. http://www.jacksonhole.com/info/jhpress ... elease.asp
.
Seems like threatening removal without replacement of an icon:
1. might increase visitors for a year
2. Most Importantly, get public financing for the project
I can understant some public financing for projects like Silver Mt's big gondola in economically challenged areas. However, Jackson is not 'challenged' -- quite wealthy (celebs, V-POTUS, etc) and must have made quite a bit on real estate dlvpmt recently.
Oh well, it's not like WY was going to have to build a sports franchise stadium anytime soon.
I do not think Jackson will be a zoo. Maybe skier days can increase 5%. This past year had poor conditions for much of the season and it was a record year. http://www.jacksonhole.com/info/jhpress ... elease.asp
.
ChrisC":2m4ggr7k said:
Yep, that was my takeaway.
That said, if I were running a business and saw a way to avoid paying $20 million for something simply by issuing an "emergency" press release, I guess I'd do the same thing.
ChrisC":2zd8dmm3 said:
Have to admit that the news was enough to nudge myself and two buddies to schedule a quick trip to JH in late January. None of us have skied there before, but all intended to at some point and we figured why not ride the old tram before it's taken down.
My fourth scheduled trip of the 2006 winter (Park City, JH, Beaver Creek, Vail) and thanks to frequent flier miles I've paid less than $300 total in airfare! (A $220 RT fare from Michigan to Denver for the Vail trip, the rest in FF fees and taxes)