Jumbo Glacier project clears major hurdle

[Admin]

I've been watching this one for a while. If it comes to fruition, the largest vertical drop in North America (year-round, at that, with over 2,100 verts in August) will be just west of Panorama in B.C. Here's the story on the government approval from the CBC. Also, Here's the proposed resort's website.

This is big news.

 

[Patrick]

Sorry guys, but I hope this doesn't happen.

I don't have time to write the whole story right now.

Yes, the BC liberal (right-wing) is very pro-development, but there many opponents to this project. It's been around for maybe 10 years.

There is also Nancy Greene and AL Raine that have also been pushing for years their proposed huge ski area north of Whistler.

Here is a quick list of past Opponents:
Environmentalist.
Some in Regional Governments (ie. municipal, county, etc.).
Some Natives groups.
Heli-skier operators.

 

[Admin]

Here is a quick list of past Opponents:
Environmentalist.
Some in Regional Governments (ie. municipal, county, etc.).
Some Natives groups.
Heli-skier operators.

There's also a huge list of proponents, including those who actually live in the economically depressed region of eastern BC that would potentially be affected by the resort. Just down the road in Golden, BC is the new Kicking Horse development, the plans for which passed a local voter referendum with an unprecedented 93.8% majority saying "yea!" (Our story from 2000 detailing the transition of a neighborhood ski hill into Kicking Horse Mountain Resort is located here). Now, you can't honestly convince me that only 6.2% of voters in Golden have sound environmental opinions. The timber industry in those parts just isn't keeping people employed anymore, and folks who live there would rather stay than leave in search of prosperity. There's little else in that region to maintain prosperity. The only option is to rot in poverty.

Some Natives groups? These are the same Natives who blockade the access road to Sun Peaks and Apex, right? :roll: These are the same natives who will gladly build monstrous casinos on their reservations when allowed to do so, right?

Heli-operators? Puh-leeze. Those folks don't have a vested interest in maintaining their permit areas for their own financial gain, do they?

Some in regional governments? Geez, those folks don't have a vested interest in pandering to their constituencies, do they? Every government has liberals and conservatives, and I dare say if someone invented a clean hydrogen-powered vehicle, some representatives would still find some reason to cry foul in order to bring attention to themselves.

In reality, the footprint of this project is remarkably small. The base area is even on a plot of ground that's anything but pristine, for it's the already-cleared site of a former sawmill.

There are those who believe in only sound, responsible development, and there are others who don't believe in any development at all. I've seen nothing about the Jumbo Glacier proposal to convince me that it's anything but responsible.

 

[Patrick]

Here is a quick list of past Opponents:
Environmentalist.
Some in Regional Governments (ie. municipal, county, etc.).
Some Natives groups.
Heli-skier operators.

There's also a huge list of proponents, including those who actually live in the economically depressed region of eastern BC that would potentially be affected by the resort. Just down the road in Golden, BC is the new Kicking Horse development, the plans for which passed a local voter referendum with an unprecedented 93.8% majority saying "yea!" (Our story from 2000 detailing the transition of a neighborhood ski hill into Kicking Horse Mountain Resort is located here). Now, you can't honestly convince me that only 6.2% of voters in Golden have sound environmental opinions. The timber industry in those parts just isn't keeping people employed anymore, and folks who live there would rather stay than leave in search of prosperity. There's little else in that region to maintain prosperity. The only option is to rot in poverty.

Some Natives groups? These are the same Natives who blockade the access road to Sun Peaks and Apex, right? :roll: These are the same natives who will gladly build monstrous casinos on their reservations when allowed to do so, right?

Heli-operators? Puh-leeze. Those folks don't have a vested interest in maintaining their permit areas for their own financial gain, do they?

Some in regional governments? Geez, those folks don't have a vested interest in pandering to their constituencies, do they? Every government has liberals and conservatives, and I dare say if someone invented a clean hydrogen-powered vehicle, some representatives would still find some reason to cry foul in order to bring attention to themselves.

In reality, the footprint of this project is remarkably small. The base area is even on a plot of ground that's anything but pristine, for it's the already-cleared site of a former sawmill.

There are those who believe in only sound, responsible development, and there are others who don't believe in any development at all. I've seen nothing about the Jumbo Glacier proposal to convince me that it's anything but responsible.

Just a few comments now.

I have a good skier friend I knewn in college that left for BC never to return to the flatter East that would have alot to say about this.

Lived in Whistler, Rossland, Revelstoke until the trade duties on canadian lumber forced him out of a job. He is now in Campbell River (Mt. Washington, BC). Avid Level IV ex-instructor working in the Forest Industry.

He is well aware of this debate and it's no so black and white.

Marc, you cannot compare Kicking to Jumbo. Golden and Kicking Horse is a whole different story and project. I would've say 100% YEA to Kicking Horse. I would also say YEA to Mt.Mackenzie in Revelstoke.

The Native group in the Invermere area and not the same bands as those in the Sun Peaks area. British Columbia is cut-up by many small Native bands not like the rest of Canada. Not all Native group build casinos, this is not Akasaskne(sp?). There are many landclaims issues in BC.

The Heli-skiing operations are presently in operation in the planned area of the resort. There clients are from Panorama (next door) and Banff.

About liberal and conservative in BC. The Liberal is the right wing party (very right wing in Canada's standards) and the NDP are the left. There is no Conservative party. The ex-Socreds are know Liberals.

The area is a very sensitive and is also a prime habitat for the Grizzly Bear. I am probably not the best person to build the case against this project, but from what I have heard from people that know the area, I know that it is not as great as it's seems.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

What kind of snow totals does that area get? How far west of Panorama is Jumbo? If I recall correctly, Panorama and Kimberley's annual snowfall is not outstanding (+/- 150 inches).

 

[Admin]

I have a good skier friend I knewn in college that left for BC never to return to the flatter East that would have alot to say about this.

Lived in Whistler, Rossland, Revelstoke until the trade duties on canadian lumber forced him out of a job. He is now in Campbell River (Mt. Washington, BC). Avid Level IV ex-instructor working in the Forest Industry.

So, let me get this straight -- he's no longer working in the BC interior because the local industry, his industry, could no longer support him there right? So, it was either starve in poverty or leave the area he loved, right?

Marc, you cannot compare Kicking to Jumbo. Golden and Kicking Horse is a whole different story and project. I would've say 100% YEA to Kicking Horse. I would also say YEA to Mt.Mackenzie in Revelstoke.

I'd like to understand your opinion, Patrick. Please tell me why there is no appropriate comparison, and why you'd react differently. I'd like to hear your perspective.

The Native group in the Invermere area and not the same bands as those in the Sun Peaks area.

Of course.

British Columbia is cut-up by many small Native bands not like the rest of Canada. Not all Native group build casinos, this is not Akasaskne(sp?). There are many landclaims issues in BC.

I don't believe in the principle of native land claims, personally. That would be like me going back to Italy and staking out a land claim there for myself, based on the fact that my ancestors came from there. Or it might more accurately be akin to someone whose ancestors were forced out of Italy as a result of Mussolini's dictatorship there in the 1940s claiming reparations today.

As for any other issues, i.e. "sacred land" and the like, the Mescalero tribe in New Mexico runs Ski Apache on what they deem as sacred land, but that's OK because they're taking in the cash. There's a tribe in Oregon that wants to consider allowing Powdr Corp. to build a colossal ski resort on a volcano they view as sacred, because the tribe will be splitting the cash with Powdr. But, when someone like Sun Peaks or Apex wants to build on land they have a legal right to, all of a sudden everyone starts screaming?

The Heli-skiing operations are presently in operation in the planned area of the resort. There clients are from Panorama (next door) and Banff.

Yes, and their permit tenure is temporary. When up for review, the government has the right to consider other requests for use of Crown Land. Naturally, the heli operations have every reason to resist any competition for the renewal to their right to use the land -- their opposition is merely self-preservationary.

And there's nothin' but a whole lotta nothin' out there. There is plenty of room for Jumbo Glacier and the heli-operators to co-exist.

About liberal and conservative in BC. The Liberal is the right wing party (very right wing in Canada's standards) and the NDP are the left. There is no Conservative party.

Understood. I was using the term "conservative" in its generic context.

The area is a very sensitive and is also a prime habitat for the Grizzly Bear.

So is a whole lotta nothin' across western and northwestern Canada. This project's footprint is merely a pimple on a butt the size of Saturn. Coincidentally, the aforementioned heli-operators also interrupt the bear habitat. Is it possibly even more so from the resounding "thwack thwack" of a heli's rotor consistently echoing off the valley walls? From what I've seen, Jumbo Glacier's proposal has taken responsible steps with respect to habitat preservation. From what I can see, your government's agency with responsibility for environmental preservation agrees.

Again, from where I stand it's all about being pro-responsible development, not anti-development, i.e. standing against any development at all.

 

[Jonny D]

I first heard about this project almost 10 years ago,
and i've kept an eye on it since then.

Though it has cleared some major hurdles and even if it can overcome those listed above, has it now been so long in the planning that investors will be wary and it won't get adequate funding?

 

[Admin]

What kind of snow totals does that area get? How far west of Panorama is Jumbo? If I recall correctly, Panorama and Kimberley's annual snowfall is not outstanding (+/- 150 inches).

It's not geographically far from Panorama (19 miles), but the snow totals at Jumbo dwarf those at Panorama. I can't put my finger on the exact snow totals right now, but Jumbo's higher, more westerly location in the Purcells gets a lot of the moisture before those clouds reach Panorama. There's a reason that the heli operators go there!

 

[Anonymous]

So, let me get this straight -- he's no longer working in the BC interior because the local industry, his industry, could no longer support him there right? So, it was either starve in poverty or leave the area he loved, right?.

Correct he left the region, but not the industry. The Lumber industry is hurting all over BC (damn, trade duties as local would politely say).

Marc, you cannot compare Kicking to Jumbo. Golden and Kicking Horse is a whole different story and project. I would've say 100% YEA to Kicking Horse. I would also say YEA to Mt.Mackenzie in Revelstoke.

I'd like to understand your opinion, Patrick. Please tell me why there is no appropriate comparison, and why you'd react differently. I'd like to hear your perspective.

Kicking Horse was an extension of the Whitetooth ski area. Golden was literally next door. This is not a brand new ski area build in the wildness on a huge glacier in a source of a watersheed for the people living lower in the valley in Invermere. I prefer conserving the areas we have, instead of creating new ones, especially where skier population growth projection are very persismitics. I agree with many things that Hal Clifford says in his book, Downhill Slide.

British Columbia is cut-up by many small Native bands not like the rest of Canada. Not all Native group build casinos, this is not Akasaskne(sp?). There are many landclaims issues in BC.

I don't believe in the principle of native land claims, personally. That would be like me going back to Italy and staking out a land claim there for myself, based on the fact that my ancestors came from there.
(...) But, when someone like Sun Peaks or Apex wants to build on land they have a legal right to, all of a sudden everyone starts screaming?.

The difference here (this might not be correct?), is that the British/Canadian Government made treaties with different Native bands about theirs rights/ownerships on that land, however the governments ignored these treaties after ward. Now that the Native band have the means (lawyer), they have going back to the governments and saying you made the treaties and you respect them. These case are (I believe) mostly in BC. HOWEVER, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS RELAVENT TO JUMBO.

The area is a very sensitive and is also a prime habitat for the Grizzly Bear.

So is a whole lotta nothin' across western and northwestern Canada. This project's footprint is merely a pimple on a butt the size of Saturn. Coincidentally, the aforementioned heli-operators also interrupt the bear habitat. Is it possibly even more so from the resounding "thwack thwack" of a heli's rotor consistently echoing off the valley walls? From what I've seen, Jumbo Glacier's proposal has taken responsible steps with respect to habitat preservation. From what I can see, your government's agency with responsibility for environmental preservation agrees.

I was just talking who would potential be against, I didn't say that heli cause or didn't cause a problem on the habitat.

As I said earlier, I am not an expert on the project, expect I have heard alot about it over the years. There have been a few articles and letters to the editor in SkiCanada over the years.

I guess I will have to work through my lunch now. :?

So here is what I found:

CBC news story (they are many links in this story pros and cons + interview (link not included below):
http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servle ... bo20041014

LINK: Jumbo Glacier Resort Assessment Report
http://www.eao.gov.bc.ca/new-website/ho ... t-home.htm

LINK: Environmental Assessment Certificate (pdf)
http://www.eao.gov.bc.ca/new-website/ho ... ficate.pdf

LINK: Jumbo Glacier Resorts background on project
http://www.jumboglacierresort.com/outli ... round.html

LINK: Jumbo Creek Conservation Society backgrounder (pdf)
http://www.jumbowild.com/Downloads/JCCS_Background.pdf

 

[Patrick]

:x , forgot to login.

 

[Admin]

Thanks, Patrick. I appreciate the time that you spent. It's apparent, however, that we both need to inform ourselves more thoroughly on the issues present before either of us were to form an educated position regarding the Jumbo proposal.

One thing I do note, on the subject of indigenous people, is that the resort backers claim to be experiencing progress in working with the native population.

On the subject of KHMR v Jumbo, note that the original Whitetooth, which never even approached the alpine, is positively dwarfed by the KHMR development that reaches all the way to the above-treeline summit ridge. And both drain into the same public watershed: the Columbia River. As someone who was there when the government signed the papers to Ballast Needham, the developers of KHMR, I can tell you that while it was "close" to Golden in the western Canadian concept of "close," it was still some 15 or more miles out of town. It was way out from, and above, Golden. By contrast, Jumbo is only 9 miles past Panorama and rather close to Invermere if one uses that same western Canadian definition of "close."

 

[Patrick]

On the subject of KHMR v Jumbo, note that the original Whitetooth, which never even approached the alpine, is positively dwarfed by the KHMR development that reaches all the way to the above-treeline summit ridge.
(...)
By contrast, Jumbo is only 9 miles past Panorama and rather close to Invermere if one uses that same western Canadian definition of "close."

Yes, I know about Whitetooth vs KH, but I also believe that Jumbo would also be bigger than KH. KH is above the Columbia River, but Jumbo would drain into the Toby Creek (not that small if it's on the atlas) that leads into the Columbia at Invermere (roughtly 30 miles/50 km). Jumbo is also a glacier, glaciers in BC (not only in BC) have melted at a fast pace and creating a ski area is not going to help. (Saw something on the news recently about glaciers near Stewart, BC - north of Prince Rupert).

Not that I anti-development, but the creation of a new ski area is not going to add new skiers to the sport, it's just going to take skiers from certains areas and move them to Jumbo. Instead of creating new ski areas, the industry should considated the existing one like Fernie, Kimberley, Fortress (closed), etc. That why I am also oppose to the expansion to Jay Peak, there is enough ski area and lift access terrain to go around without creating new ones. I know that Jumbo would be a wonderful addition to the skiing experience, however it would come at a cost. I am not willing to pay that price for a short term gain.

What will the industry become in 20 years down the road? Areas fighting each other, some closing because of the decline in skier population? What will the left of the infrastructures.

No, I am not a green radical :mrgreen: . I am not for the closing of ski areas in Banff National Park (the damage is done) or taking the Cog Railway off Mt. Washington :wink: .

BTW, I am looking at the Atlas, 9 miles between Panorama and Jumbo sounds a bit close (as the crow flies maybe).

There is more that the background info on the Jumbo Creek Conservation Society if you click here:
http://www.jumbowild.com

I should sent an email to my write in Campbell River, haven't heard from him in awhile. :roll:

Anyway, this is not a slam dunk project like Kicking Horse, there are many things at play here.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I skied the Jumbo and Farnham Glaciers with RK Heliski in March 1999. I vaguely remember hearing of the resort proposal either then or maybe when I was at Kicking Horse in 2002. The local opinion was negative, but just vague comments about remote avalanche-prone terrain inappropriate for lift service.

Reading the proposal does lead one to a different view. There are lifts strung all over this kind of topography in Europe. The mountains are so vast and undeveloped compared to the U.S. that I can't imagine the slightest impact on the ecosystem given the basic environmental safeguards that will be required by B.C.

The area was a 7-minute flight west from Panorama and the climate is entirely different. The proponent is not even asking for snowmaking at the base area. CMH Bugaboos is the permit area directly north of RK/Jumbo.

It is likely that the objections I heard were because Jumbo is in the heart of RK's current permit area, and it's clear from the report that RK is wooried about that. It seems to me that the decision to build Jumbo should be based upon economic viability. These interior B.C. areas are very remote by U.S. standards, and as the report notes, we Americans comprise only 6% of B.C. skier days.

As with Utah I just don't get this. The price/quality combination is hard to beat; that's why I've been up there at the rate of one 1+ destination trip a year every season since 1997. I think the B.C. tourism people see the quality and figure that once there is a critical mass of world class resorts their tourism, both winter and summer, will really take off.

And I would think the environmentalists would prefer to see B.C.'s economy more dependent upon tourism and less upon extractive industries.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Mark for your positive support to the project. I've had enough with the forums at Biglines... Everyone is soo negative about it... Its giving me headaches.

Jumbo Glacier ISN'T just another resort in the rockies, Its North America next BIG THING but on a small scale compared to whistler. What the developers are trying to do is bring a slice of Euro Skiing here! If it goes through, Jumbo will be the first resort on this side of the pond to rival the alps in terrain and scenery. Period. (sorry whistler doesn't do it)

They have been pumping tons of money in the project to get it off the ground the last 10 years so it obvious that there is a market for this resort, otherwise the investors would have been long gone by now.

Hopefully Jumbo Resort will prevail soon. We live in a very exciting time.


[/quote]

 

[Patrick]

Here is a nice piece from the Calgary Herald on Friday.

http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryhe ... 5953977a12

 

[Patrick]

They have been pumping tons of money in the project to get it off the ground the last 10 years so it obvious that there is a market for this resort, otherwise the investors would have been long gone by now.

Yes, I agree that Jumbo would not be another Whistler, however at what cost?

Besides the environment, what will be the impact of the neighbouring ski areas around the East Kootenay? Some will say, they will all gain from such a magnate that would be Jumbo. However, the skier market in North America is pretty crowded, there is a reason why the East Kootenay aren't full of size areas, it's all about geography.

BTW, the project sounds great and it might be the next Big Thing. However, what is happening to the previous next Whistler?

The same thing was said about Kicking Horse and prior to that, Fernie, what about Castle Mountain in Alberta. All mountain with a huge potential and money put into them but will they received as much skier and what will happen to their investment a few years after Jumbo opens? And I am not even talking about Panorama or Kimberley?

What will the next Big One after that be? There is already another one north of Whistler with glacier skiing (Cayoosh?).

Jumbo might be viable economically for it's investors, but a positive gain for all involved in the region might be another story.

Marc or Tony, you might know this? When was the last time a major resort was started from nothing, the last I can think of is Blackcomb in 1979? I don't think that anyone have seen the light of day in the last 15-20 years.

 

[Max]

Actually Patrick, that negative impact on other resorts is having a positive effect on environment. Some resorts, as you point out, may fall behind, and even close. Closed resorts' terrain goes back to nature, and just knowing that 500 ski areas have closed in New England (NELSAP....), I'm not sure whether actual acreage in New England have gone up by that much since 1970 when factoring the losses in.

Some lose, some win, but in the end, I think that as much as preserved terrain is indeed preserved, the environment is made a much bigger issue than it should in this case.

 

[Admin]

Marc or Tony, you might know this? When was the last time a major resort was started from nothing, the last I can think of is Blackcomb in 1979? I don't think that anyone have seen the light of day in the last 15-20 years.

It's been a long time, for sure. Both Kicking Horse and Moonlight Basin might fit that bill, were it not for the fact that they were superimposed over "existing" ski areas. Frankly, Tamarack in Idaho, due to open this season, is probably the first built-from-scratch resort in over 20 years in North America.

 

[Frankontour]

Yeah, for the big resorts, it's probably the first one...

Looking to that, I would like to know if there is some other "big" ski areas that opened in North America in the last 20 years.

In Quebec, we have 2 x 1500 footers that have been opened in 1990 and 1991 (Mt Édouard and Mt Pin Rouge).

But Mt Pin Rouge is not quite developped. Mt Édouard is becoming bigger every year, but we can't compare it to a mountain in the rockies, it's sure.

(but I must say that the tree-skiing was incredible, in last mid-may !!!)

Is there some other ski areas over 1500' high that opened in the last 15-20 years except these 2 ones ?

 

[Admin]

Is there some other ski areas over 1500' high that opened in the last 15-20 years except these 2 ones ?

Yeah, I must qualify my last comments, which only apply to "significant" resorts, for there are some in the midwest which have been built within the 20-year timeframe that I mentioned. Let's say that I'm only speaking of "destination resorts."