Mammoth Mountain sold
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When admin prematurely placed Dave McCoy in his grave a few months back, I noted that a major event at Mammoth would not go unnoticed in the SoCal media.
The following story was front page above the fold in today's Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-m ... -headlines .
"Roma and Dave McCoy are overcome with emotion during the signing of papers about the sale of their interest in the Mammoth ski resort."
(Anne Cusack / LA Times)
The following story was front page above the fold in today's Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-m ... -headlines .
"Roma and Dave McCoy are overcome with emotion during the signing of papers about the sale of their interest in the Mammoth ski resort."
(Anne Cusack / LA Times)
riverc0il
New member
wow, that's a huge deal. that guy certainly doesn't look 90! and still hoping for some turns this season, cheers brother.
interesting that he sold out to a big time resort company. sounds like mammoth despite it's size was more down to earth than the major destination areas. definitely sounds like big changes are coming to mammoth when the buys say they are looking to make the ski area "upscale" :roll: i am all for every mountain having it's own style and character, but man, i dislike pretentiousness in the snow sports world more than anything else.
tony, you're a mammoth skier... how are you feeling about the deal?
interesting that he sold out to a big time resort company. sounds like mammoth despite it's size was more down to earth than the major destination areas. definitely sounds like big changes are coming to mammoth when the buys say they are looking to make the ski area "upscale" :roll: i am all for every mountain having it's own style and character, but man, i dislike pretentiousness in the snow sports world more than anything else.
tony, you're a mammoth skier... how are you feeling about the deal?
Patrick
Well-known member
I am no Mammoth specialist, but I don't think this is a surprise. I find it sad nevertheless. 
I really enjoyed the community atmosphere I found in Mammoth Lakes in June, hopefully that doesn't change by a (continued) real estate boom.
The proof that $80 millions, is not all good news for the McCoys.
I really enjoyed the community atmosphere I found in Mammoth Lakes in June, hopefully that doesn't change by a (continued) real estate boom.
The proof that $80 millions, is not all good news for the McCoys.
There are already 4 pages of postings on the Mammoth Forum in the past 24 hours since the sale was announced. http://forums.mammothmountain.com/forum ... TMP=Linear
I guess the fear is whether the upscale development can coexist with Mammoth's existing SoCal weekender clientele and the locals/mountain employees. To my mind the closest analogy is Whistler, though it's imperfect because Whistler is within day commute distance of Vancouver but we in SoCal have to pay up for weekend lodging. There is still a substantial bed base of 1970's era condos, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has managed to find a cut rate deal. So they can build as much fancy stuff as they want since I haven't seen them them bulldozing the old places to do it.
Dave McCoy certainly tried to look out for the locals, as evidenced by his tireless campaign to get the junior college built at Mammoth. I don't know if that applies to employee housing. The locals are presumably living in the same type of 1970's housing that we rent on weekends, and are doing quite nicely if they were smart enough to buy in during the SoCal recession of the early 1990's. Real estate has at least quadrupled since then, so there's nothing cheap at Mammoth from a purchase standpoint even though you can find reasonable condo rentals.
There was some whining about potential lift ticket costs. This isn't that material IMHO, except for the Value Passes, which I might point out were instituted AFTER Intrawest/Rusty Gregory came into the picture. Next year's cutoff to new entrants is handwriting on the wall that the Value Pass era is being phased out.
I am in firm agreement that the essence of the ski experience will not change no matter what happens to the town. For those who worry about increased crowds, I can only refer them to the late 1970's when Mammoth's lift lines were excessive and I doubt we will see those days again. The last 7-8 years have been an era in which Mammoth had substantially shorter lines than most major resorts. I will concede that successful development will increase the crowds some, but I doubt to an unacceptable level.
While Intrawest and the McCoy's were evaluating offers over the past 6 months, CEO Rusty Gregory commented that there were 2 types of prospective investors, the "Growth Investors" and the "Income Investors." He strongly believed that the former would be better for the community, as the latter would just try to maximize cash flow from the operation, often by cutting corners and trimming expenses. I have a high school classmate who lives in Bend, and after hearing how Powdr Corp has been running Mt. Bachelor since 2003 I have to say I agree with Rusty Gregory. In addition to cutting back its late season lift operation at what was formerly the premier spring skiing in North America, Bachelor has sold off 40% of its grooming equipment and laid off lots of staff, according to my classmate.
The final question is that "upscale development" is what too many ski resorts in America are pursuing, and will it all end badly as hypothesized in Downhill Slide or when real estate cools off? My opinion is that some but not all will succeed. Since Mammoth is the 2nd best intermediate mountain in North America and also has an enviable track record of snow reliability, I believe its chances of being one of the winners are excellent. And there are a lot of us SoCal locals to limit the downside.
I guess the fear is whether the upscale development can coexist with Mammoth's existing SoCal weekender clientele and the locals/mountain employees. To my mind the closest analogy is Whistler, though it's imperfect because Whistler is within day commute distance of Vancouver but we in SoCal have to pay up for weekend lodging. There is still a substantial bed base of 1970's era condos, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has managed to find a cut rate deal. So they can build as much fancy stuff as they want since I haven't seen them them bulldozing the old places to do it.
Dave McCoy certainly tried to look out for the locals, as evidenced by his tireless campaign to get the junior college built at Mammoth. I don't know if that applies to employee housing. The locals are presumably living in the same type of 1970's housing that we rent on weekends, and are doing quite nicely if they were smart enough to buy in during the SoCal recession of the early 1990's. Real estate has at least quadrupled since then, so there's nothing cheap at Mammoth from a purchase standpoint even though you can find reasonable condo rentals.
There was some whining about potential lift ticket costs. This isn't that material IMHO, except for the Value Passes, which I might point out were instituted AFTER Intrawest/Rusty Gregory came into the picture. Next year's cutoff to new entrants is handwriting on the wall that the Value Pass era is being phased out.
I am in firm agreement that the essence of the ski experience will not change no matter what happens to the town. For those who worry about increased crowds, I can only refer them to the late 1970's when Mammoth's lift lines were excessive and I doubt we will see those days again. The last 7-8 years have been an era in which Mammoth had substantially shorter lines than most major resorts. I will concede that successful development will increase the crowds some, but I doubt to an unacceptable level.
While Intrawest and the McCoy's were evaluating offers over the past 6 months, CEO Rusty Gregory commented that there were 2 types of prospective investors, the "Growth Investors" and the "Income Investors." He strongly believed that the former would be better for the community, as the latter would just try to maximize cash flow from the operation, often by cutting corners and trimming expenses. I have a high school classmate who lives in Bend, and after hearing how Powdr Corp has been running Mt. Bachelor since 2003 I have to say I agree with Rusty Gregory. In addition to cutting back its late season lift operation at what was formerly the premier spring skiing in North America, Bachelor has sold off 40% of its grooming equipment and laid off lots of staff, according to my classmate.
The final question is that "upscale development" is what too many ski resorts in America are pursuing, and will it all end badly as hypothesized in Downhill Slide or when real estate cools off? My opinion is that some but not all will succeed. Since Mammoth is the 2nd best intermediate mountain in North America and also has an enviable track record of snow reliability, I believe its chances of being one of the winners are excellent. And there are a lot of us SoCal locals to limit the downside.
ChrisC
Well-known member
I am generally less than thrilled when pure real estate developers purchase mountains. You wonder how much effort will be put into mountain operations vs. new housing units. Although they are a 'growth' buyer, are there any commitments to the mountain? Intrawest seems to do a good job, but others......(Telluride was recently purchased by SoCal nursing home magnate who is busy building units, instead of new eateries or any of 3 already approved lifts).
I don't think locals will be pleased with decisions being made by a REIT from CT. Vail's takeover by the Apollo Group was not really well-received by the community. Who will manage the mountain?
I am most suprised that Intrawest passed on this deal, let their ownership stake be reduced from 40 to 15% and assume a subservient role in a JV. Maybe the deal was too rich and they have probably made some money already.
The saddest thing was seeing the look on the McCoys faces -- not exactly happy.
I guess this helps understand why Cushing -- owner of Squaw -- will put the mountain into a trust upon his death to be administered by appropriate parties. He simply will not sell Squaw Valley.
I don't think locals will be pleased with decisions being made by a REIT from CT. Vail's takeover by the Apollo Group was not really well-received by the community. Who will manage the mountain?
I am most suprised that Intrawest passed on this deal, let their ownership stake be reduced from 40 to 15% and assume a subservient role in a JV. Maybe the deal was too rich and they have probably made some money already.
The saddest thing was seeing the look on the McCoys faces -- not exactly happy.
I guess this helps understand why Cushing -- owner of Squaw -- will put the mountain into a trust upon his death to be administered by appropriate parties. He simply will not sell Squaw Valley.
Aspen has had the strictest zoning/environmental restrictions in ski country for 25+ years. When you restrict supply that severely, it's no surprise that prices go through the roof.
Dave McCoy's track record of quality mountain operations is far better than Alex Cushing's. He's 90 years old. He had to make SOME decsion about the future of Mammoth. In 1998 (I think) he brought in Intrawest and Rusty Gregory and observed their decisions for several years while retaining substantial ownership and input himself. He obviously trusts Gregory to carry on a similar role in the future.
There are no guarantees. Cushing is kidding himself if he thinks a trust/foundation will run the area exactly as he would have. A smart owner of Mammoth will raise its profile as a destination resort while retaining the loyalty of the 1+ million local and SoCal drive-up skier days. Only time will tell if Dave McCoy has managed the transition successfully.
Dave McCoy's track record of quality mountain operations is far better than Alex Cushing's. He's 90 years old. He had to make SOME decsion about the future of Mammoth. In 1998 (I think) he brought in Intrawest and Rusty Gregory and observed their decisions for several years while retaining substantial ownership and input himself. He obviously trusts Gregory to carry on a similar role in the future.
There are no guarantees. Cushing is kidding himself if he thinks a trust/foundation will run the area exactly as he would have. A smart owner of Mammoth will raise its profile as a destination resort while retaining the loyalty of the 1+ million local and SoCal drive-up skier days. Only time will tell if Dave McCoy has managed the transition successfully.
thesnowman
New member
"In 1998 he brought in Rusty" Rusty has been here for over 30 years. He started loading chair lifts. Ya he lives just a few doors down the street from me.
As a home business owner I can tell you Rusty still has the passion to make things work up here.
I say congrats to your vision and dream Dave !!!
As a home business owner I can tell you Rusty still has the passion to make things work up here.
I say congrats to your vision and dream Dave !!!
I stand corrected on Rusty. However that proves my point that Dave McCoy is trying to select someone he trusts to maintain his legacy.
Today's L.A. Times article on local reaction: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... ory-footer
Today's L.A. Times article on local reaction: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... ory-footer
thesnowman
New member
Here is some from Dave himself:
"It's my expectation that Starwood Capital will continue our original vision for developing a world-class mountain community. There were many people interested in Mammoth, but cultural fit and dedication to maintaining a quality community was very important to me."
Dave has been known for not just building a company but a community. We expect him to focus his vision on philanthropy now, particularly the development of local college programs for a sustainable community.
*****
Myself I am sad to see people all over the net bag on this sale. Let's give the new guy a chance. I plan to taking him skiing and boarding this winter. I will let you know how it all works out.
After 20 years here, we all know change is going to happen. My family will be here for the long haul and we are excited about new things to come!
Let me know if any of you hardcores want a real tour of our Mt. Mammoth.
Have a Great Snow Season everyone.
"It's my expectation that Starwood Capital will continue our original vision for developing a world-class mountain community. There were many people interested in Mammoth, but cultural fit and dedication to maintaining a quality community was very important to me."
Dave has been known for not just building a company but a community. We expect him to focus his vision on philanthropy now, particularly the development of local college programs for a sustainable community.
*****
Myself I am sad to see people all over the net bag on this sale. Let's give the new guy a chance. I plan to taking him skiing and boarding this winter. I will let you know how it all works out.
After 20 years here, we all know change is going to happen. My family will be here for the long haul and we are excited about new things to come!
Let me know if any of you hardcores want a real tour of our Mt. Mammoth.
Have a Great Snow Season everyone.
As the one who was first consulted here about the sale, I thought the paranoia was way overdone. It's reassuring to see that impression confirmed by someone much closer to the situation.
No surprise Hal Clifford weighed in on the side of the alarmists: http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio ... 4800.story .
IMHO he is as guilty of overgeneralization as those who think that a big ski village will work at Wolf Creek.
IMHO he is as guilty of overgeneralization as those who think that a big ski village will work at Wolf Creek.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Tony Crocker":2tz8qqib said:
I agree.
Mountain-wise.
I don't know about expansion plans/approvals, but it looks like there are going is no new terrain or even new pods with the existing boundary; simply more lifts to be upgraded.
Town/real estate-wise.
Starwood group plans to develop about 60 acres around Mammoth Lakes with Canadian resort operator Intrawest Corp. and is expected to buy additional lots throughout the region. However, there are a lot of 70s/80s condos in the area that should prevent things from going too upscale.
Furthermore, I do not see how you could 'ruin' Mammoth from an aesthetic perspective. Parking is already slim, the 70s/80s condos are built a little haphazard, and the core downtown area/strip malls are nothing special. I don't think upscale properties are any worse than a strip mall - unless they start occupying some of the last/best open space.
Mammoth being 'ruined' would come more in the form displacing/squeezing members out of the community/down valley because the affordable housing is gone. The publicity/speculation brings in second home owners who compete with locals to buy up the bottom of the market. However, affordability issues are everywhere in the West (Santa Barbara, San Diego, Seattle, Bend, Breckenridge, Vail) -- it's simply a desirable place to live -- and lots of people get pushed 'down valley'. I guess it is just the more hurtful when it's second home owners displacing locals. Mammoth locals have perhaps lived on borrowed time.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Tony Crocker":1k9lq1ap said:
I met him once in Telluride -- and I would describe him as worth having a beer with, but you're not going to stay for a second one.
I didn't really like Hal's book Downhill Slide. I didn't think he had a thesis, but more of an agenda to push with facts selectively taken to support it. The agenda that is (the corporate ski/development machine has destroyed skiing as we know it, why can't everything be run like a co-op similar to Mad River and Bridger?)
I thought Powder Burn (about the arson on Vail Mountain) was a superb book. It took all the players -- scientists, college hippies, long-time corporate managers, college ski bumbs, second homeowners, Latin immigrants, ski patrolers, local business people -- and explored what Vail has become, what has been lost, what has been gained. More balanced. More insightful.