Mayflower Resort, UT + LCC Gondola

[Tony Crocker]

I’m definitely opposed to the LCC gondola. It’s 8 miles and 36 minutes. Locals will still have to drive to La Caille, get in and later out (congestion not so different than the current red snake) and probably pay extra. No locals will use it except on the most extreme congested and/or bad weather days. Remember former admin’s clean drive time door to door was 25 minutes. That time doubles minimum using the gondola. JimK, skiing partial days midweek, will use that gondola once in a blue moon.

As for the people using the UTA bus, I’m sure they would rather just stay on the bus than get out with all their ski gear and queue up for that 36 minute ride.

I wonder where these gondola towers are going to be safe from all those slide paths? And Mammoth skiers will remind you that gondolas can be closed in inclement weather. Yes the LCC road should have avalanche sheds. Any road in the Alps with that kind of exposure has them.

The Euro analogies cited in this thread are not appropriate. The new Grindelwald setup rises from the resort town and replaces existing lifts that were inadequate to demand.

We stayed in Bourg St. Maurice and rode that funicular to Les Arcs. But Bourg was very quiet. It was Easter Week and the resorts were hopping, but clearly nearly all the tourists were staying in the resorts.

As ChrisC has pointed out in other threads, the LCC congestion is due to locals much more than tourists. You will not get locals out of their cars (trust me, I’m from LA!) unless door to door travel time is no more than via driving.

So I say expand the road and build the avalanche sheds. In 10 years all of the buses and an increasing proportion of the cars will be electric.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Yes the LCC road should have avalanche sheds. Any road in the Alps with that kind of exposure has them.

Good point. I assume that oversight for roads is on the state level?

 

[jimk]

" JimK, skiing partial days midweek, will use that gondola once in a blue moon."
To be honest, that's a good point too. But if they did away with all free parking at both Alta and Snowbird I'd probably use a new gondola and start making longer visits of 4-6 hours. Or depending on price tag, I'd start considering the cost of season pass for parking, although isn't the one for Snowbird almost as much as a season pass for skiing, ~$700?

 

[ChrisC]

I’m definitely opposed to the LCC gondola. It’s 8 miles and 36 minutes. Locals will still have to drive to La Caille, get in and later out (congestion not so different than the current red snake) and probably pay extra. No locals will use it except on the most extreme congested and/or bad weather days. Remember former admin’s clean drive time door to door was 25 minutes. That time doubles minimum using the gondola. JimK, skiing partial days midweek, will use that gondola once in a blue moon.

That's fair. What problem are you trying to solve anyways? Would the lift just get used a few weekends and holidays from the core season of Late December to Late March? Meanwhile, sit vacant on weekdays. Would resort employees use it?

I do not have a good feel for the parking situations at Alta or Snowbird. In Washington state, the resorts have simply run out of room for cars. In Jackson, they have simply turned Teton Village into a bunch of 4/5 star hotels so there is no more land for parking left. Hence the free lot miles down the valley.

Did not understand why Alta and Snowbird were starting to charge for parking. Just a revenue addition or are they trying to incentivize behavior?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Jackson has charged for close in parking for at least a decade. By 2015 they were charging for the Ranch lot which we use too. I’m not parking 7 miles down the road during early morning winter inversion weather.

Alta’s pay parking is clearly aimed at crowd control as it is only pay on weekends. Snowbird’s parking controls started during the pandemic season of 2020-21. I don’t recall the exact details but my favored spots along the Bypass road were still free last year. And the issue does not affect us during Iron Blosam week.

Yes the gondola will be massively underutilized, nearly all on peak congestion ski days. The UTA bus schedule can be flexible. I’m sure it runs more during ski season and perhaps it can add a few more on weekends.

 

[ChrisC]

Jackson has charged for close in parking for at least a decade. By 2015 they were charging for the Ranch lot which we use too. I’m not parking 7 miles down the road during early morning winter inversion weather.

I was parking at the free Stilson Lot in 2020 - 7 miles down the road from Teton Village. It just annoys me to pay for parking.

The best thing Teton County is doing is on the weekends - Public Transportation assisted Teton Pass skiing. We did lap after lap with our own tax-payer-funded shuttle driver in 2020. This shuttle was introduced since there is no parking on the Pass on mid-winter weekends and holidays.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I was parking at the free Stilson Lot in 2020 - 7 miles down the road from Teton Village. It just annoys me to pay for parking.

I parked there in winter 2011 -- IIRC, that was the first season they'd opened that lot.

 

[EMSC]

Utah DOT just announced the Gondola up Little Cottonwood is the preferred alternative... Let the battle of lawsuits begin...

I figure if either road expansion or gondola gets built (heck even started) anytime in the next decade it will probably be a miracle.

 

[jimk]

Yeah, here's a good, succinct video explaining the UDOT rationale for a gondola:

It kind of lines up with some of my thoughts; i. e., expanding the roadway to allow for more traffic and buses is less effective for dealing with snowy weather and worse on the environment than building and operating a gondola.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I really don't see why people think a gondola will be immune to weather issues.

 

[EMSC]

I really don't see why people think a gondola will be immune to weather issues.

It should be dramatically less prone to weather than normal ski lift gondola/trams are. It would be built way down in the lower reaches of the canyon with the mountains blocking winds from most directions on either side. Certainly snow should not be a big issue either assuming the towers are built in the correct avi-safe areas.

So not immune, but also not overly impacted by most weather would be my guess. And certainly less impacted than the road is in a snowstorm I would think.

That said, that doesn't make it an ideal/perfect system. Stopping, parking, longer than driving time once on it (and waiting in whatever line there is). no tailgating for locals, etc... certainly drawbacks to the whole thing especially for locals. But it would provide an alternative that can run when the road is shut in most (or maybe all?) cases. Probably very few if any 'country club' days up in the canyon anymore due to road closures I would think if it ever does get built.

 

[jimk]

EMSC said, "Probably very few if any 'country club' days up in the canyon anymore due to road closures I would think if it ever does get built."

In my last seven years of skiing quite often up in LCC I've seen or heard about fewer and fewer of those legendary "country club" days. Instead, the resorts seem to be more and more cautious and invoke interlodge rules every time there are big snows. Both the roads and the slopes are closed, and sometimes for two or three days straight.

 

[Tony Crocker]

During Iron Blosam trips since 1996 I’ve had one “country club” experience and it only lasted until 10:30am.

The key word in this gondola discussion is “locals.” When you have a valley resort town full of destination visitors, most of them don’t have cars so high capacity transport lifts make sense.

LCC’s crowd issues are due to locals on weekends and powder days. You are not going to get those people out of their cars for a 36 minute gondola ride except in the most extreme circumstances.

The gondola is a costly boondoggle and no private company (I’m sure that includes the owners of Alta and Snowbird) would fund it. You’ll need to put in exorbitant parking fees at AltaBird plus make the gondola free with a lift ticket to get any kind of consistent utilization.

And if it were me as an SLC local I’d probably get 2 or 3 friends in the car to split the parking cost and drive anyway.

Nowadays we will pay Snow Summit’s $20 close in parking if necessary to avoid the cattle car shuttle from the remote Brownie lot that adds about half an hour to a typical ski day.

 

[jasoncapecod]

During Iron Blosam trips since 1996 I’ve had one “country club” experience and it only lasted until 10:30am.

The key word in this gondola discussion is “locals.” When you have a valley resort town full of destination visitors, most of them don’t have cars so high capacity transport lifts make sense.

LCC’s crowd issues are due to locals on weekends and powder days. You are not going to get those people out of their cars for a 36 minutes gondola ride except in the most extreme circumstances.

The gondola is a costly boondoggle and no private company (I’m sure that includes the owners of Alta and Snowbird) would fund it. You’ll need to put in exorbitant parking fees at AltaBird plus make the gondola free with a lift ticket to get any kind of consistent utilization.

And if it were me as an SLC local I’d probably get 2 or 3 friends in the car to split the parking cost and drive anyway.

Nowadays we will pay Snow Summit’s $20 close in parking if necessary to avoid the cattle car shuttle from the remote Brownie lot that adds about half an hour to a typical ski day.

Traffic up the canyons should be at the bottom of SLC's list of things that need fixing.. What about addressing the over building and they are running out of WATER..

 

[jamesdeluxe]

"Nobody goes there anymore -- it’s too crowded."

 

[Marc_C]

Two things that posts have touched on...
1. Snowsheds -my understanding is that even with the gondola they are included.
2. Avi paths - it will be pretty easy to engineer it so that no towers are in any path.
3. Incentives - yes, locals are the majority of the impact. A huge part of that is single occupant vehicles. The first phase will be expanded bus service and a toll for vehicles - in particular, single occupant vehicles. Expect it to be $25.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I zoomed Wasatch Peaks on Google Earth, found the lift terminals and marked them on this map.

The lower lift runs from 6,200 - 8,500 feet while the upper one runs from 7,900 - 9,500.

Topography, altitude, exposure are an equally tall but narrow version of Snowbasin. Another high lift serving the bowl under Thurston Peak would add a lot, and there's already a trail cut below the exit from that bowl.

They will need major league snowmaking to to keep the bottom 1,500 vertical covered. I would have put in a mid loading station for the lower lift at 7,000 (red X).

 

[EMSC]

My understanding is that both are detach quads. The upper lift looks pretty fun. I wonder how far along the various ridgelines in each direction you are allowed to go? Maybe they provide 'free' guides for the tiny number of folks who at that private resort would ever put in the effort.

I understand the altitude concern but scratching my head how you expect a mid-load at a spot that is not even on the liftline?

Both lifts have pretty good vertical (assuming good snow). The lower lift has as much as Super B at Copper, though this one looks much less steep.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I would have aligned the whole lift a few feet north. Its top and base are in fairly flat areas but my suggested mid station is in a valley. A mid station can be a dogleg like Collins at Alta. Since I've heard that makes Collins somewhat temperamental, I agree a straight lift path is most desirable.

 

[ChrisC]

LCC Gondola/S3 project moves forward, but needs funding.

Interesting - Upper LCC might have tolls?

Also, the Press Release said capacity would be slightly over 1000 passengers/hr - is that enough?

Utah Department of Transportation Selects Gondola for Little Cottonwood Canyon

The State of Utah has selected a 3S gondola as the winning alternative for Little Cottonwood Canyon mobility after a multi-year environmental impact study. The study considered roadway widening, en…

liftblog.com

Utah Department of Transportation Selects Gondola for Little Cottonwood Canyon​

Peter Landsman Jul 12 The State of Utah has announced a 3S gondola as its selected alternative for Little Cottonwood Canyon mobility after a multi-year environmental impact study. The study considered roadway widening, enhanced bus service, rail and two different gondola options. UDOT also received and analyzed some 50,000 public comments in the lead up to today's decision. The selected gondola alternative B will start with enhanced bus service in 2025 and other road improvements before the gondola is constructed and State Route 210 becomes tolled. The 3S system would be capable of carrying 1,050 passengers per hour from a base terminal at La Caille to stations at Snowbird and Alta. The innovative system would include four sections with 35 passenger cabins departing stations every two minutes. "The gondola provides the highest travel reliability, as it can operate independently of State Route 210, avoiding delays related to adverse weather, crashes, slide offs, and slow moving traffic," wrote UDOT in its Record of Decision. "While the gondola does have high visual impacts, it has low impacts to the watershed, wildlife movement and climbing boulders, along with low operations and maintenance costs." The gondola itself would cost $370 million to construct and would become the most expensive and capable lift system ever built in the United States. A new parking garage, tolling infrastructure and trailhead improvements would bring all-in capital cost to $729 million. However, because the gondola would cost less than $8 million per year to operate, it has the lowest 30 year lifecycle cost of all road , gondola, rail and bus options studied. Once the gondola is complete, UDOT expects the Utah Transit Authority to discontinue bus service in Little Cottonwood with all transit riders transferring to the gondola at the base of the canyon. Skiers and resort employees alike could reliably access Snowbird in 27 minutes and Alta in 37 minutes whenever the gondola was operating. The road would remain open for private vehicles with tolling in the upper canyon. Although gondola alternative B is now officially the state's selected alternative, lawmakers have not yet funded the gondola's construction.