Mt Waterman Summer 2009

mammothsnowman

New member
Well folks just got hired on to get the web side of mt waterman rolling.
This summer we will be running Saturday and Sundays for Scenic Rides and Mtn Biking.

You can get the details at our new developing web site.
http://www.mtwaterman.org

Snowman will be on the hill Saturday the 18th from 10- 1pm filming and getting photos for a new Mtn Bike Video & Photo Shot.

Look for some new trails by Summer 2010...

Come on up and support Mt Waterman!

Thanks
The Snowman
 
I'm sure we can expect a substantial upgrade in the quality and timeliness of Mt. Waterman's online info next ski season with Snowman on the job.

But does that mean you won't be at Mammoth next season? Those photo galleries are very informative.
 
I will still be here in Mammoth... and we will be stepping it up big time!!! With that said I just purchased a Mobil Production Unit so if Waterman gets snow I will get a fair amount of days there as well.

Next season both the New Waterman and the Mammoth Snowman sites will rely on more user input then ever.

We will be adding user trip reports to both sites and I am counting on you to help lead the way on that one Tony! \:D/
 
Great, now every one will know about the gem that is Mt Waterman #-o . That's ok If they haven't figured it out by now they never will. :ski:
 
Great, now every one will know about the gem that is Mt Waterman
More people need to know about it than now or it will close again. Ski areas need to at least break even to stay open in the long run.
 
What are the differences between Waterman and Baldy from a business standpoint?

They both seem to be in the same boat as New England's beloved Magic Mountain VT: Interesting hills, bad outlook.
 
ski-the-face":2rxmfjqi said:
especially with the economy
Bad economy is good for Southern California resorts. Snow Summit, Bear Mountain, and Mt. High had good years because people stayed closer to home. The economy really hurt the destination resorts due to travel cost and higher ticket pricing. With that said I still think there is a good outlook for Waterman and Kratka if they just got into the right hands and were operated like ski resorts. I'm now off to visit Lynn Newcomb today (those were the days).
 
The SoCal locals and Mammoth do have somewhat of a countercyclical relationship. This was first evident in my formative ski season of 1978-79, which remains the best ever SoCal season in my experience. I heard at the time that the good local snow resulted in a 10% decline in Mammoth's ticket sales, to which Dave McCoy reportedly responded, "That's OK, most of the new skiers from a year like that will become Mammoth converts during normal years."

The next significant event was the early 1990's SoCal recession, which coincided with changing demographics. The new young, price-sensitive generation was about 75% snowboarders, and when Snow Summit/Mt. High cut ticket prices and built big terrain parks, they maintained or increased business while Mammoth's skier visits declined by nearly 1/3 from the 1982 and 1986 peaks. Mammoth/Intrawest responded by 2000 with even better parks and the cut-rate Mammoth Value Pass.

The recent economic crisis was probably a mild parallel to the early 1990's situation. Though 1992 and 1993 were excellent SoCal seasons, while the past 2 have been only average. Nonetheless Mammoth responded this April by reopening the MVP to new entrants after closing it 4 years ago during the boom years.

Back to Baldy/Waterman: The 1990's demographic change was at least as bad a hit to those areas IMHO as to Mammoth. With minimal snowmaking they will never compete with Big Bear/Mt. High in park construction, and most SoCal snowboarders coming from surfing or skateboarding do not have the skills to handle the steeps and variable ungroomed snow of Baldy/Waterman. So the potential daytrip clientele for Baldy/Waterman is far smaller than 25 years ago. The numbers back this up. During our last big season in 2004-05 Waterman was closed but Baldy was open from Oct. 28 - May 22 and sold 50K tickets vs. 500K at Mt. High and probably 750K at Big Bear.

In this situation I see Mt. Waterman at a severe competitive disadvantage vs. Mt. Baldy. Baldy has 4x the lift-accessible acreage, a modest altitude advantage, and is a shorter drive to 90% of Southern California. For the new snow days Waterman's road is more likely to be closed, and even if it's open I'll be at Baldy nearly every time. I'm a skiing "nutcase," so I can figure out a few situations where Waterman will be better (like last Feb. 14), but overall I rate to ski Baldy 4 or 5 days for every one at Waterman. With SoCal's erratic snowfall that works out to about one day at Waterman every 2 seasons.

They both seem to be in the same boat as New England's beloved Magic Mountain VT: Interesting hills, bad outlook.
I see the analogy there, but in a different way. There's a limited demand for that type of ski area, so perhaps only the best one per region is viable. In Vrmont Mad River Glen has some advantage in terrain and a big advantage in snow over Magic most of the time, so that clientele is more likely to stick with MRG. In SoCal Baldy's advantage in terrain and accessibility will likely prove as decisive. In each region I would like to see both areas prosper, but I wouldn't place any bets on it.
 
In Vrmont Mad River Glen has some advantage in terrain and a big advantage in snow over Magic most of the time, so that clientele is more likely to stick with MRG.
True, but Magic is about 1.5 hours less of a drive for people from the south, so it *could* pull in a lot of people from big population centers in MA, CT, and downstate NY who aren't prepared to drive further. Unfortunately for Magic, as Tony mentions, the snow advantage at MRG can be appreciable and without top-to-bottom snowmaking that actually works, along with reliable lift ops, it'll never pull people in. There was an unsubstantiated rumor a while back that Stratton was going to "annex" Magic to provide for well-heeled customers who were looking for more challenge, but that never materialized. My first experiences with Magic were during the winter of 2000-01, when there weren't any damaging thaw/freeze cycles -- it demonstrated how much potential the mountain had, but that was an exceptional season.

How much more of a drive is Waterman than Baldy and does it use the same road -- do you drive past Baldy to get there?
 
For Mt. Baldy you drive ~15 minutes from the 210 freeway in Claremont up to Baldy Village at 4,000 feet. The road is still good a couple miles to 5,000, then the last 2-3 miles are 15mph hairpins, very tough but since only 2-3 miles they do get plowed right after storms.

Mt. Waterman is 32 miles up the Angeles Crest Hwy from La Canada. The last 20 of it is over 4,000 feet. After a big storm it may be 3-4 days to get the road open.

When the roads are clean Mt. Waterman is closer than Baldy to the Crescenta Valley, equidistant from Burbank/Glendale/Pasadena, but farther from anywhere else. Depends on where you are, but on average 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour farther. The distance difference is fairly minor, but the powder day road problem is not IMHO, given the appeal of these areas.

I believe Mt. Waterman has enhanced its appeal somewhat going to the 3 day per week operation. That was a key factor in my going there last Feb. 14, and my expectations regarding the snow being untouched midweek were definitely met.

Mt. Waterman has nearly all north exposure, which can result in better surfaces than Baldy in the spring of big snow years. The corn in late April 1983 on the sidecountry runs was absolutely prime. But this is not a clear-cut situation. On average you're skiing 700 feet lower than the Thunder Mt. terrain at Baldy, so it depends the mix of storms in the particular year, rain/snow levels etc. as to which area will have the best base for late season.

For those who place top priority on a low key, low density experience, Mt. Waterman is highly recommended. If you're the type of skier who would rather be at Solitude or Powder Mt. than Alta/Snowbird, Waterman is your kind of place.

Waterman's other downside from a commercial standpoint is that it has minimal intermediate terrain. The beginner area is better than Baldy's IMHO.
 
Tony Crocker":2cs7mc0o said:
most SoCal snowboarders coming from surfing or skateboarding do not have the skills to handle the steeps and variable ungroomed snow of Baldy/Waterman.
:bs:
So what kind of background do the skiers come from in LA? Driving fast down steep sections of Topanga Canyon? Or traversing the variable ungroomed median strips of Beach Boulevard? Come on Tony, that's BS!
Tony Crocker":2cs7mc0o said:
Back to Baldy/Waterman: The 1990's demographic change was at least as bad a hit to those areas IMHO as to Mammoth. With minimal snowmaking they will never compete with Big Bear/Mt. High in park construction
Now this explains why most young snowboarders prefer the "park" areas vs Baldy/Waterman. I'll agree riding on boilerplate is tougher than on skis, but as a SoCal native, I know these steeper areas soften on most days to allow easy boarding. It's just not as fashionable to go to Baldy/Waterman, as there isn't much of a scene (or girls). Believe me, when traveling out of state with my snowboarding kids, it's always PCMR or Copper vs Snowbird or Telluride 'cause of the parks/scene. And these kids could tackle anything at Jackson Hole, but would rather ride slopestyle or pipe all day and show off.
 
Schubwa has been out of SoCal and in the PNW since the rise of snowboarding. SoCal snowboarders and PNW snowboarders are in general different animals. Mt. Baker and Mt. Bachelor snowboarders are there mainly for the ungroomed pow, and with the high water content and occasional wind-affected snow probably handle it better than us skiers.

The SoCal snowboarders are mostly there for park, and when it gets steep or hard you see a lot of the heel-side scraping. Not all of them, I've seen many excellent snowboarders on Mt. Baldy powder days. But there has to be some truth to the generalization I make when Baldy's clientele is 1/3 snowboarders vs. 3/4 at Big Bear and Mt. High. Baldy also has a fair amount of terrain (i.e. South Bowl) that requires Alta-like traversing. Snowboard proportion in South Bowl is probably less than 10%. Recall also that I surveyed the expert runs at Mammoth in December 2004 and found the snowboard percentage to be 15% up there vs. the 40% for Mammoth's overall patronage.
 
Tony speaks the truth.

Joe SoCal Snowboarder does not crave steep ungroomed terrain. From what I've seen, when they accidentally show up in it, they have no idea how to ride it, and heelsliding becomes the order of the day.

I'm glad for this.

The clowns can have Mt. High.

I'll happily keep Baldy and Waterman.

-Proud South Bowl Boarder
 
The just released October issue of SKIING Magazine has a feature article on Mt. Waterman and its history. Sorry, at the moment no reference online. The article presents the history and issues quite well, covering most of the points we have done here on FTO since 2004. I would only critique the timing of the piece. The writer clearly visited during 2008 and SKIING couldn't manage to get it into publication last season? There's a short addendum at the end of the feature stating that Mt. Waterman was open 15 weekends in 2009 vs. 4 in 2008. The exposure can only help, but it would have been better if the report had been from someone who was there last year, when the place was running more smoothly and conditions were better.
 
Assuming it's not completely torched (or perhaps even better if it is), what is the normal protocol for returning to the base of Waterman from Avalanche? Thumb is up Hwy 2 or stash a car at the pick up? If the former, is there a general traffic pattern you can rely on in terms of preponderance of car volume going one way or the other at certain times of the day?
 
what is the normal protocol for returning to the base of Waterman from Avalanche?
I'm not sure there is one. When you go out there should be dictated by conditions, inbounds tracked out or corn timing in spring. All I can say is that it's easier to thumb your way back if just 1 or 2 people than a big group. We had 4 people last February but had a cooperative driver to pick us up for the last 2 runs of the day. A big group could have one person sit out each run, but that's a fair amount of down time for that person with 2 slow lifts and a 10-minute step-up/traverse for the rest of the crew to run a lap. Plus you'll lose your parking space.

I should warn also that the CHP was ticketing OB skiers during the 1990's. Everything is so different now. Back then there were often expensive rescues of lost skiers. Now they are struggling just to let people know they are back in business.

I would love to get up there for a fall dog hike to see what is burned, but I suspect the road is going to be closed quite a while. The gully of Avalanche was part of the fire perimeter. I'm guessing the skier's left of Avalanche and Winston (best fall lines) have scattered burns but are not scorched to the ground like we see above La Crescenta.
 
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