New snow in Aspen
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EMSC
Well-known member
A lot more extensive than just Apsen area. Much of Colo mtns got a dusting. Even 'low elevation' Eldora had the upper half coated in Snow Fri am (since melted there). Here is a pic today -sat 13th- from the house (not great, but gives you the idea). Cold spring, very hot & dry for about 8-10 weeks and then it's been very cool and wet again since around mid august (with a couple of very brief warm shots during the past month).
Of course Having seen a number of cool falls, it really doesn't mean much for trending into the heart of winter IMO. A-basin & Loveland should start making snow soon. I would think no later than the next cold snap, whenever that might be... Forecast is for warmer (normal) temps for at least the next week though.
Of course Having seen a number of cool falls, it really doesn't mean much for trending into the heart of winter IMO. A-basin & Loveland should start making snow soon. I would think no later than the next cold snap, whenever that might be... Forecast is for warmer (normal) temps for at least the next week though.
EMSC
Well-known member
Not looking too promising for snowmakingin Colo. Temps finally warmed up to normal and now even a touch above normal for the past week and latest forecasts have that trend going through at least the upcoming weekend.
Typically, roughly last weekend through this coming weekend is about when Loveland & Abasin start snowmaking ops. But even at Leadville, Copper mtn etc.. weather stations the temps have hardly been dropping below ~30-35F overnight so far. So, if either place does blow snow in the next week it will be for marketing bragging rights and not to actually do anything worthwhile toward opening.
Personally that's fine with me. I just don't have the need for WROD skiing in Oct anymore like when I was a teenager... (I require an excuse like meeting up with patrick last year to bother with Oct skiing now). Plus, in my mind, that means it will compress the average snowfall into a shorter time frame for more powder days in mid-winter instead of base building events in sept/oct (really it'll do what ever mother nature wants, but I like to think of warm falls as giving me more snow later
)
So, I thought I'd throw out an update as some are probably waiting to hear the news stories on snowmaking starting and wondering why it hasn't happened yet...
Typically, roughly last weekend through this coming weekend is about when Loveland & Abasin start snowmaking ops. But even at Leadville, Copper mtn etc.. weather stations the temps have hardly been dropping below ~30-35F overnight so far. So, if either place does blow snow in the next week it will be for marketing bragging rights and not to actually do anything worthwhile toward opening.
Personally that's fine with me. I just don't have the need for WROD skiing in Oct anymore like when I was a teenager... (I require an excuse like meeting up with patrick last year to bother with Oct skiing now). Plus, in my mind, that means it will compress the average snowfall into a shorter time frame for more powder days in mid-winter instead of base building events in sept/oct (really it'll do what ever mother nature wants, but I like to think of warm falls as giving me more snow later
) So, I thought I'd throw out an update as some are probably waiting to hear the news stories on snowmaking starting and wondering why it hasn't happened yet...
Colorado does have the optimal climate (low humidity and very high altitude) for the earliest snowmaking. But it's misleading to the casual observer in terms of of natural snow skiing. The low water content and gradual accumulation usually results in full operation (especially of expert terrain) being achieved later in the season than in some other regions.
It must be somewhat frustrating to locals to seen the effort put in to open those WROD's in October, then see most everything shut down in mid-April with full coverage and in many cases winter conditions and/or fresh powder.
It must be somewhat frustrating to locals to seen the effort put in to open those WROD's in October, then see most everything shut down in mid-April with full coverage and in many cases winter conditions and/or fresh powder.
EMSC
Well-known member
Yes and no is the best answer I can give.
The two biggest frustrations around this topic that I typically hear are on opposite ends of the season...
1) resorts showing very little flexibility on when they close during good snow years - like last year, a lot wanted resorts open longer (more typical or below snow year having Abasin, Loveland, occasionally Breck, etc.. as options fairly late seems to keep most die-hards happy enough that they have some turns available)
2) what a lot of people consider to be a waste of early snowmaking on opening superpipes and "large" terrain parks for late Nov/early Dec opening. Especially at places like Breck & Keystone, they could easily open multiple additional trails in the early season instead of having the superpipe/large park open so early. As that large terrain is used by a tiny % of people even mid-winter, I hear that complaint a lot. Esp in bad early seasons when the masses are stuck to 4 or 5 trails over turkey day while another several trails worth of snow piles up for the very, very few (as in they're usually ok with 'super' parks per se, just that they feel the resorts should not be making snow for them as early as most resorts do).
It's also true that a lot of the most die-hard of all are skinning for their own turns in mid-April and don't much care about lift served by then.
I had not explicitly thought about terrain parks drawing snowmaking resources away from trails. In 2002 Snow Summit bought Bear Mt., and has since emphasized parks at the latter. It is clear that Nov/Dec snowmaking priority is given to adding trails at Snow Summit, while at Bear the park features are the priority. However, the biggest park at Bear is near the base and tough to get built up completely until January, given intermittent snowmaking opportunities in SoCal.
Mammoth has a world class park near Main Lodge and definitely uses the snowmaking to help build it. I have not read complaints about its priority on the often-cranky Mammoth Forum, even during the slow starting 2006-07 season.
Mammoth has a world class park near Main Lodge and definitely uses the snowmaking to help build it. I have not read complaints about its priority on the often-cranky Mammoth Forum, even during the slow starting 2006-07 season.
EMSC
Well-known member
Ditto for here. It's mostly verbal complaints in the lift line (sometimes to me by friends, other times overheard from other groups).
Not sure what the priority is at Mammoth; but Breck, Keystone the huge terrain parks are given very early, very high priority (after only a few trails are open)
schubwa
New member
EMSC":1bsnr7ti said:
EMSC":1bsnr7ti said:
I have to respectfully disagree with you on your second quote. My take on this is economics driven by demographic profiling. There is no doubt younger folks are generally more enthusiastic about lining up for opening day. If my humble observations hold true, I'd say most snowboarders are young. We may have an unusually high snowboarder population here in the PNW, but in the weeks preceeding Christmas vacation you sure don't see nearly as many skiers as snowboarders. In fact, I'd say they're the overwhelming majority. I'd spend my snowmaking buck keeping the riders happy.
You might think nobody rides park because you probably avoid those designated areas; I suggest go over and look, they're packed! It's a good thing too as it separates the skiers and riders. Many of these kids are hounding their folks to travel WAY out of the way to go to the areas with the highest rated/most extensive terrain parks and pipes. The growth at these areas is primarily because of young snowboarders, not from aging skiers like myself. Case in point, I'd never go to PCMR, I'd go to AltaBird. I'd avoid Tamarack as I prefer Brundage. Where do you think we go on family vacation?
If you consider the cost of making snow, I'd just blow some piles and make a few terrain features and they'll hike all day. Heck, my kids go up and start riding rails after the first few inches fall. Skiers aren't happy 'till it's wall-to-wall coverage so you can go out there and roll.
Schubwa is correct, not only about very early season, but also very late, according to Mammoth's marketing director Joani Lynch. She says the 40% overall snowboard proportion at Mammoth is higher at the start and end of the season.
In line with Schubwa's comment, I'm almost never at Mammoth on the early WRODs, last Thanksgiving being the exception. I didn't consciously notice the proportion, but I did note the time a few boarders sat down in a less than ideal choke point on Broadway.
I'm there a lot in late season, and I don't notice the proportion much then either where I'm skiing. But I have noted, and taken numerous pictures of, the late season Saddle Bowl terrain park which is very popular and I'm sure mainly boarders.
So yes, we should lighten up on the young boarders, as they seem to be providing most of the incentive for ski areas to extend their seasons, at least here on the West Coast.
In line with Schubwa's comment, I'm almost never at Mammoth on the early WRODs, last Thanksgiving being the exception. I didn't consciously notice the proportion, but I did note the time a few boarders sat down in a less than ideal choke point on Broadway.
I'm there a lot in late season, and I don't notice the proportion much then either where I'm skiing. But I have noted, and taken numerous pictures of, the late season Saddle Bowl terrain park which is very popular and I'm sure mainly boarders.
So yes, we should lighten up on the young boarders, as they seem to be providing most of the incentive for ski areas to extend their seasons, at least here on the West Coast.
EMSC
Well-known member
I don't disagree with your comments Shubwa & Tony. I don't think anyone much cares about blowing enough extra for a couple of rails and a few small jumps or three for early season. In fact I think most folks are quite happy that that small amount of area/terrain draws so many off the main trails. Heck even I snowboard a few times per year, so not an anti-board view (I think only twice last year though).
My comment is targeted/referring to blowing snow on the superpipes with 18 foot walls and 'large' terrain parks. I would have to assume Mammoth does have similar sized features/park, though not sure about Bachelor. The jumps at breck & keystone are literally 100% made of snowmaking and are literally about as tall as the tree tops - absolutely massive and being built extremely early (often with only 3-4 trails open at breck for example they will put 50% of the snowmaking firepower into the huge park). Even mid-season there are not very many kids or 20 somethings in that oversized park (the medium sized park is packed though). Someday here I might find a pic or two to show the size park I'm referring to.. (though going on a long weekend so not his week).
My comment is targeted/referring to blowing snow on the superpipes with 18 foot walls and 'large' terrain parks. I would have to assume Mammoth does have similar sized features/park, though not sure about Bachelor. The jumps at breck & keystone are literally 100% made of snowmaking and are literally about as tall as the tree tops - absolutely massive and being built extremely early (often with only 3-4 trails open at breck for example they will put 50% of the snowmaking firepower into the huge park). Even mid-season there are not very many kids or 20 somethings in that oversized park (the medium sized park is packed though). Someday here I might find a pic or two to show the size park I'm referring to.. (though going on a long weekend so not his week).
Mammoth has the top rated park in the country by some polls, so there is most definitely a huge pipe in the Unbound Terrain Park. Last Thanksgiving was so marginal they barely had the 2 trails open and I saw no park features at all.
I wish I could remember January 2007, but I wasn't paying attention to the park. Mammoth had done a fine job of snowmaking on trails across the entire lower mountain by then.
Of course in nearly all Sierra seasons the snow arrives in big dumps, and there is probably enough Sierra Cement to get that big pipe started after that first dump. I'll ask Adam about Christmas 2006 (first big dump mid-February) and Christmas 2007 (fist big dump early January); maybe he'll remember since the UCSD team has some good park snowboarders.
The natural snow at Keystone and Breck is low water content, arrrives gradually, and is probably of little use in building big terrain features.
I wish I could remember January 2007, but I wasn't paying attention to the park. Mammoth had done a fine job of snowmaking on trails across the entire lower mountain by then.
Of course in nearly all Sierra seasons the snow arrives in big dumps, and there is probably enough Sierra Cement to get that big pipe started after that first dump. I'll ask Adam about Christmas 2006 (first big dump mid-February) and Christmas 2007 (fist big dump early January); maybe he'll remember since the UCSD team has some good park snowboarders.
The natural snow at Keystone and Breck is low water content, arrrives gradually, and is probably of little use in building big terrain features.
EMSC":27hn24u4 said:
"Marketing snow," "blowing out the mice"...call it what you will, but they did it:
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/index. ... e&sid=4953
EMSC
Well-known member
:shock:
Very much so... Last sentence in your article is
With "later in the week" starting, um....today :-k :roll: I glanced - neither copper, leadville, or other high Altitude locations with weather stations are forecast to drop below ~31F overnight the rest of this week/end. Weather fcst can be wrong, but probably anything they made will be toast in a few days even in the shade (I'll look for it as I drive by this weekend).
Not surprising for it to be Loveland though, as they lost the race last year. Would not be surprised to see them lose the first WROD race from here on out really since Abasin's system is much newer - until/unless Loveland does a significant upgrade that is...
Very much so... Last sentence in your article is
With "later in the week" starting, um....today :-k :roll: I glanced - neither copper, leadville, or other high Altitude locations with weather stations are forecast to drop below ~31F overnight the rest of this week/end. Weather fcst can be wrong, but probably anything they made will be toast in a few days even in the shade (I'll look for it as I drive by this weekend).
Not surprising for it to be Loveland though, as they lost the race last year. Would not be surprised to see them lose the first WROD race from here on out really since Abasin's system is much newer - until/unless Loveland does a significant upgrade that is...
EMSC
Well-known member
And............. not a drop of man made left at Loveland by Sunday. Totally a marketing 'event'. In fact forecast pushes the current above avg temps through at least the Oct 4/5 weekend now. However the clueless mass media lapped it up with all the Denver TV stations and newspapers, etc.. carrying the story; so perhaps a worthwhile expenditure for them.
As for the Nov snowmaking that goes into large terrain features, here are a couple of pics I have from Breck showing the size -Not an 'average joe' park at all.
As for the Nov snowmaking that goes into large terrain features, here are a couple of pics I have from Breck showing the size -Not an 'average joe' park at all.