Snowy Range, WY 3-15-08

EMSC

Well-known member
Good fun day of mid-winter conditions. A long post for you, as not many have or will likely see this place otherwise...

Road trip. My wife & I had a couple of errands that needed to be done in Ft Collins and Loveland (the city, not the ski area) and decided to incorporate a trip to Snowy Range to get some turns in since we were going half way already. It didn't hurt having my interest peaked about Snowy Range in these forums a few weeks ago.

It turns out to be ~2.5hours driving each way which could get us to a whole lot of places in the central mtns of Colo (up to about Vail/BC). If you lived in Ft Collins it would be tied with Eldora for closest ski area time wise. Anyway, a mostly sunny day with 3" new reported on their website (a rather poor one compared to the competition IMO). But 5" in 48 hrs which turned out to be the more important figure. Turns out that local ranchers, Nebraskans, Iowans etc... pretty much avoid any new snow so a couple of patrollers and us were about the only ones skiing the new snow. It's been a long time since I've seen so many turbo turtles on the hill at once :lol:

Fortunately, the slopes were actually very uncrowded and despite a 10:30 arrival, we were no where near the back of their parking lot. The local patrollers were super friendly taking a pic of me and helping to arrange a guided tour of an unofficial glade. In fact no glades show on their map but that is where some of their best skiing is - certainly where their most interesting skiing is. Thanks Mark and Jeremiah!

Due to my skiing ability and all the patches on my ski team jacket, plus the pictures I was taking, they assumed I might be a potential buyer of the place. I suppose if I had that kind of money I'd at least look into it as the feel of the place was actually pretty cool in that area and in theory for the right buyer one could expand into new, better terrain behind the current area one ridge line back. According to the patrollers, the backside of the current area, while steep, is way too rocky and sunny to put runs on so you would have to have a two way lift to drop you down in to the next gully. Apparently there used to be a ski area back there somewhere once upon a time.

Personally, I don't know if it is just in a good snow year, but the snowy range mtns just south of the town of Centennial looked like good pitch and much more sustained vertical than anything else in the area (see pics). My guess is that the front of Snowy range is 600' the backside is 700' vert and the mtns a couple miles away and south of Centennial were 1200 ft+ of good vertical.

Due to the official 5" of new which skied anywhere from 2" to 8" depending on exposure it was a really fun day. I would think this is the kind of place q is looking for in his out of the way travels, and would recommend a day here for anyone 'in the area' just for some fun. Nothing is particularly steep but you'll have much of the place to yourself. I wish the sellers luck (they want $6.5M, it's no way worth that much IMHO). The base lodges - 3 of them - are all virtually brand new and actually probably too big for the skier numbers. They look good on the outside but then they goofed a bit in some areas such as putting stone and concrete floors everywhere which makes for some very slippery surfaces, etc...

Anyway. I have a number of Pic's to post which will take more than my allowed limit. Any FTO buyers out there? If you could talk the owners down to a reasonable price (doubtful from what I heard) and sink money into an expansion to the better terrain, it's got a neat vibe and is the local hill for Laramie and also could attract a decent crowd from Cheyenne and the plains... They actually do have snowmaking but not much. 4-5 trails frontside and maybe 1 on the backside from what I could tell. Not sure if equipment and pipe is the limit or water rights is the limit.
 

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2nd of 3 sets of pics...
 

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3rd of 3 sets of pics.
 

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I love the West - but not the little ski areas that pop up into this desert.

Wyoming - the least populated - and a slow growth state - why fight the demographics with a ski area? I am sure the some audited statements would show the area to be worth about $1-3M after a cash flow analysis - even with some Vail multiple on it.


Looks like a good day.

But even Powderhorn, CO is having a great year. But it sucks.
 
Tony Crocker":pqxtda6k said:
are best visited in big snow years like this one. Probably a bit sketchy at other times.

I was into visiting the little areas like White Pass or Mission Ridge in WA state. But they promised more. White Pass was a key WA state pass - a hole through the Cascades. And Mission Ridge was a great off the radar place - with a totally different snowpack from the west Cascades.

But many of the places were just built during a ski boom time - like 90s Internet companies (or the Web 2.0 eyesores going on now in the Bay Area), like Miami/Vegas condo towers just finishing up, like a 5th largest bank that needs a Fed bailout.....some of these 1970 specials really need to go away.

My point, some of these places should have never been built - and should not exist. However, it seems to take a long time for a failed ski area to disappear.
 
ChrisC":2kdpzvss said:
some of these places should have never been built - and should not exist.

In pure dollars and cents, you're right (and that price tag on Snow Ridge is ridiculous), but to me -- and I'm speaking as a NELSAP fan -- some of the coolest ski areas are the ones that are goofy fits. Most were built by people with a loose grip of economic reality and if they die, they die... but to say they "need to go away," that's blasphemy.

And what's the deal with your venom toward Waterman?
 
However, it seems to take a long time for a failed ski area to disappear.

If that was your sweat equity, like most of these family owned places are, you'd hold out for as long as you could too. Now, most of us on these forums would not have put that much sweat into such a proposition in the first place, but that is another story...

Wyoming - the least populated - and a slow growth state - why fight the demographics with a ski area? I am sure the some audited statements would show the area to be worth about $1-3M after a cash flow analysis - even with some Vail multiple on it.

Uh, then why does JH exist at all? :P Just kidding.

I suspect that the 'realistic' price for the area would be toward the higher number you mention - primarily due to the base facilities being so new and already big enough for much more skier visits. For the moment, the demographics are slightly better/on an up trend as the oil, gas and coal mining boom has the state investing heavily in UW in nearby Laramie. Although, according to the Patrollers, Steamboat is only about 2 hrs and Vail/Summit county just over 3...

It seems clear to me that someone had a prior interest in that piece of property prior to a ski area ever being there. As near as I can tell, after looking at topo maps, all the marketing material for Snowy Range is bogus. Seems that the base is ~8,800 feet (claim 9,000) and a top of ~9650 feet (claim 10,000) for a max vert of ~850 feet (claim 1,000). But that max vert is top of front to bottom of the 'baskside' lift. I don't know what portion of the ridge/hill behind the current is developable, but looks to be steeper/decent pitch, but still looks like only ~800' vert max in the 'expansion opportunity' area.

By contrast, the ridgeline(s) that face E/NE just south of Centennial, WY have much better pitch and 1,500' of sustained vert according to topo maps. So all of maybe 5-6 miles away from each other (via road, not as the crow flies) and the ski area could have been built much bigger and on much better terrain... So either someone owned (owns?) the good terrain, or the start up was determined by someone looking for get rich quick plans on land they already had access to back in the hey day of skiing growth.

I can see 3 or 4 potential buyer types. 1) local Laramie business person who treasures the learn-to-ski aspect for the community, 2) Similar, but go co-op style like MRG with the community for same reasons, 3) Wealthy person/family who wants their own, nearly private ski area as a toy. 4) Wealthy "Texan/Calif" person who buys into the expansion opportunity aspect or thinks they can do a land swap/buy to build condos or etc... at the base (selling point probably being more summer oriented with winter as the 'minor' season).
 
It seems clear to me that someone had a prior interest in that piece of property prior to a ski area ever being there.
This is of course the wrong reason to build a ski area. The right reasons being terrain and snow. If Snowy Range is really 2 hours from Steamboat and 3 from Vail I certainly would be leery of putting money into it.

No matter what it cost to build the facilities its worth is based on its projected future use, which is as a family hill for the locals. These are sunk costs so the area can continue to operate if cash flow is not negative. But sale price will be modest. See Mt. Waterman, June Mt. and The Canyons as other examples.
 
Certainly the wrong reason to start a ski area, Tony. Agree on that with you. If they had thought it through, it would be a decent place. Possibly better than Eldora with some open bowl type skiing with 1500 verts and even a couple miles closer to it's market. But then apparently not many folks really thought it through back in the 50's through the early 70's given the huge number of failed ski areas from that time.

The price has to be modest for this one. It has not a lot of draw even with an expansion other than being closer and very cheap (FYI, it's Laramie that is 2 hrs from the Boat, not Snowy Range. SR is ~35 min from Laramie on a road that dead ends in winter). Thus my hypothesis that any buyer will be either a local, or a big moneyed far away stranger (probably southern/warm area/flatlander) who either sees a personal playpen or real estate play for summer recreation and may put a few $$ into the hill as an aside to help sell the condo's.
 
Streets and Trips says 109 mile and 2.5 hrs from Laramie to Steamboat using Buffalo Pass which looks windy and may close in winter. Using Rabbit Ears Pass and US 40 is 124 miles, but only a minute longer.
 
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