2010-11: The Greatest Natural Snow Year of Our Lifetimes?

[Admin]

Yes, no one drive to Wyoming or Montana. But what are the numbers? St-Sauveur probably has double the skier visits of Alta, Jackson or Snowbird.

None of which was my original point that you took issue with.

I just don't like generalization, that's all. O

Neither do I, so let's play with some cold, hard numbers.

Admin, you know what I think about my backyard. Never been a big fan, however I'm not the average skier. If anything, I would be bias against the region. I don't have the number off the top of my head, but Geoff is entirely correct about Tremblant attraction outside the local scene.

I'd be shocked if Tremblant does more than 400,000-500,000 skier visits per year, which would amount to a significant 7.7% of the skier visits in a province populated by a whopping 74 active ski areas, one of which is St.-Sauveur which by your statement:

probably has double the skier visits of Alta, Jackson or Snowbird.

...a statement which frankly, with respect to Snowbird, I doubt. Utah does over 4 million skier visits annually and I'd guess that a good 600,000 of them are at the Bird (which we'll never know because Snowbird doesn't release those numbers). If St.-Sauveur does 1.2 million skier visits a year, and remember that their numbers are inflated by their busy night skiing that Snowbird doesn't have, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on that 600-vertical foot hill with the other 1,199,999 of 'em.

And I'd also be shocked if 5% of those visits to Tremblant were Americans. That amounts to a whopping 25,000 U.S. skier visits. Like I said: inconsequential, when by my estimates alone northeastern U.S. skiers account for approximately 36 million skier visits.

From a recent survey active snowsports population in the U.S. is estimated at 21.2 million. Alpine skiers and snowboarders make up three-fourths of that population, or 15,919,500 which, according to that survey, about 60% of the alpine skiers and 62% of snowboarders are concentrated in 10 states. While I haven't seen the breakdown by state it's obvious simply based on U.S. population (and BTW on FTO server traffic as well) that the northeastern U.S. represents the majority of those 10 states. So with reasonably conservative extrapolation we're talking about ~4 million participants in the northeastern U.S. with 58.6% skiers and 41.4% snowboarders.

That works out to 2,344,000 skiers and 1,656,000 snowboarders estimated to reside in the northeastern U.S. Snowboarders participate on average 58% more days (11.7) per season than alpine skiers (7.4). Based on this I estimate that northeastern U.S. skiers and snowboarders account for ~36,720,800 skier visits, which makes sense as the U.S. skier days as a whole are north of 60 million. And 25,000 of those are spent at Tremblant? Like I said: inconsequential. Let's estimate that another 25,000 U.S. skier visits are spent across the rest of Quebec outside of Tremblant. That's still only a fraction of one percent.

What is the percentage of the skiing public in Boston, NYC, Philadelphia or Washington DC versus Montreal and the entire province. I would think that there would be a greater proportion of skiers in Montreal.

Sure, I'll play that game.

Numbers from U.S. 2010 Census http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/index.html :
Maine population: 1,328,361
Vermont population: 625,741
New Hampshire population: 1,316,470
Massachusetts population: 6,547,629
Rhode Island population: 1,052,567
Connecticut population: 3,574,097
New York population: 19,378,102
Pennsylvania population: 12,702,379
Delaware population: 897,934
Maryland population: 5,773,552
Washington DC population: 601,723

TOTAL: 53,798,555

Now, we estimated above that ~4 million skiers and snowboarders inhabit this region. That's a participation rate of 7.4%. Now, let's go with your premise and say that the participation rate in Quebec is 10%, greater than that in the northeastern U.S. The population estimate in 2010 for the entire province of Quebec is 7,970,672 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec). That works out to a mere 797,067 skiers and snowboarders, only 20% of the number who reside in the northeastern U.S. If we use the same breakdown (58.6% skiers and 41.4% snowboarders) that's 467,081 skiers and 405,333 snowboarders. If we use the same number of visits per person annually (7.4 and 11.7 days, respectively) that would mean that Quebec should amass 8,198,795 skier visits annually by your premise, but we already know that it doesn't. By your estimates it was 6.5 million and I can't imagine that numbers would change that dramatically. If your premise that Quebeckers ski/snowboard more often were true, that number of skier visits would be even further off.

So either:

a) Quebec's skier visits above are drastically underestimated; or
b) Your premise that Quebec has a higher percentage of skiers/riders who ski/ride more frequently is flawed.

I'm going with B.

However, none of this was part of my point (and the point of others) that consistent cold weather with few thaws and few weekend rain events makes for a better year for ski resorts (and Joe Average Skier) in the northeastern U.S. than deep midweek powder days followed by crappy weekends.

Tremblant also draws into Ontario as far as Toronto. There are direct airline flights from Toronto two airports to Tremblant now (I know, why? But that is besides the point). You would be surprise what percentage of the skiing public at Tremblant is from outside Quebec.

Which doesn't give them more than the estimated 400,000-500,000 skier visits that they get. Period.

Gee, now that was a fun little exercise. :lol:

I've said before that I appreciate Tony taking the time include the northeast in his snow studies. In fact, I think that it legitimizes northeastern skiing to see that our region gets the same treatment -- reams of spreadsheet data with conclusions supported by supposition -- as Utah.
:wink:

Which means that the only difference between Tony and Patrick is that one of them has reams of spreadsheet data. :wink:

 

[Geoff]

You really don't get it. From mid-March onwards, we spring ski in New England

No, you don't get it, you're skiing ONE area. Read page 12 of JSpin's Vermont log this season and you'll see clear documentation of the 3 A weekends in March, with the last one corroborated by Anthony.

No Tony. You don't get it. Vermont did 4.3 million skier visits. Everything from Mad River southwards had a pretty crappy March including some disasterous flooding. Three or 4 ski areas that account for a miniscule number of those skier visits escaped it. I thought you did statistics for a living? You're trying to draw a conclusion from data that just ain't there.

 

[Patrick]

Admin to take your reply point-by-point.

Here are some easy counterpoints to find.

2010-2011 numbers:
6.4 million day-visit in Quebec
Regions:
Townships: 1.6
Laurentians: 1.9
Quebec/Charlevoix: 1.1

From Guy 'the ski' Thibadeau's blog:
http://blogues.cyberpresse.ca/ski/2011/ ... ver-passe/

Bromont at 800k which passed Tremblant, MSS and MSA. To my defence, MSS did hit 1M a few years ago. Just read that Bromont has gone from 250k to 800k in 10 years. Intrawest has been having a hard time, so I wouldn't be surprise if they are lower than their 15 years average. Divide the 1.9m between Tremblant and MSS...lower results for the medium to small areas. 400k for this season might about right (sorry, if you can easily find the hard numbers, put them up). They used to be higher when the dollar wasn't so strong and Intrawest was rolling.

Found it for 2006 on an Intrawest document: media.integratir.com/IDR/financials/AIF%202006.pdf
skier visits (millions)
Western Canada: 8.3
Quebec: 6.8
Other Canada: 3.9
US Rocky Mountains: 20.7
NE US: 12.5
PW US: 12.1
MW US: 7.8
SE US: 5.8

Resorts:
W-B: 2.014
Copper: 1.132
Winter Park: 1.077
Blue Mtn: 702k
Tremblant: 672k Are you shocked yet? O
Snowshoe: 473k
Stratton: 390k
Mountain Creek: 364k
Panorama: 216k

74 ski areas, but some don't even come close to 100k/year.

Let's compare to Utah (from the Utah gov for the same year as the ones I found for Intrawest so we can compare Apples with Apples. So according to this, Tremblant gets more-visits than Alta, Brighton or Snowbird by over 34% to 56% (no night skiing and similar if not shorter season than most of them). Again, never said that the skiing is better. Tremblant is not in my top 10 in the East, but ... many people like and keep going. Once again, if Tony is going to take the continent as a whole, he has to account for everyone taste. We all know that we aren't the average skiers, know many average skier even make turns into April.

Which doesn't give them more than the estimated 400,000-500,000 skier visits that they get. Period.

Gee, now that was a fun little exercise. :lol:

Oops. :wink:

Alta: 499K
Brian Head: 136k
Brighton: 430k
Snow Basin: 240k
Snowbird: 478k
Solitude: 201k
Summit Country: 1.715
Private Resorts: 363k
Total: 4.062
www.governor.state.ut.us/dea/publicatio ... tabase.pdf


You are counting Quebec only numbers in your demographic. The majority of Ottawa skiers ski on the Quebec side (an extra 1 million). Population of Ontario is 13 millions, mostly around Toronto.

Half of all condos own at the resort are from people living in Ontario, so there goes the 5% for the condos. The Quebec skiing public is more divided between areas, the out of province skiers (with the exception of people like James) mainly focus on a couple of places. The further away, the more it's Tremblant. That is a fact.

Your premise that Quebec has a higher percentage of skiers/riders who ski/ride more frequently is flawed.

I was making an assumption and as I stated before. Again, I wasn't necessarily comparing Boston skiers with Montreal, but more with people living in Dallas. Again I know that the reservations at the resort are much more than only 5%, but I wasn't able to find the numbers. :snowball fight:

I need to stop here, I have a TR to write plus I'm late on my Monday Mad Addict's Attic post.

 

[Admin]

Divide the 1.9m between Tremblant and MSS...lower results for the medium to small areas. 400k for this season might about right

Alta: 499K
Brian Head: 136k
Brighton: 430k
Snow Basin: 240k
Snowbird: 478k
Solitude: 201k
Summit Country: 1.715
Private Resorts: 363k
Total: 4.062
http://www.governor.state.ut.us/dea/pub ... tabase.pdf

I'm shocked that Alta did more than Snowbird in 1996. That sure as hell isn't the case now, I can virtually assure you.

You are counting Quebec only numbers in your demographic. The majority of Ottawa skiers ski on the Quebec side (an extra 1 million). Population of Ontario is 13 millions, mostly around Toronto.

Half of all condos own at the resort are from people living in Ontario, so there goes the 5% for the condos.

But that doesn't give them more skier visits. That merely detracts further from your premise that Quebeckers ski more.

I was making an assumption and as I stated before. Again, I wasn't necessarily comparing Boston skiers with Montreal, but more with people living in Dallas.

Please, let's stick to comparing apples to apples. People in Dallas aren't skiing in Quebec which is what this whole discussion is about. And for that matter they're not skiing in New England either.

 

[Tony Crocker]

However, none of this was part of my point (and the point of others) that consistent cold weather with few thaws and few weekend rain events makes for a better year for ski resorts (and Joe Average Skier) in the northeastern U.S. than deep midweek powder days followed by crappy weekends.

Precisely. The stated topic of this thread was snowfall in North American ski areas. Snowfall is nearly irrelevant compared to

consistent cold weather with few thaws and few weekend rain events

in terms of ski quality for at least 1/3 of the Northeast areas in my regional definition, as well as nearly all the MASH, Southeast and Midwest areas. Why should such areas be counted at all in determining an overall snowfall measure?

Patrick and I disagree on whether skier visits should factor into a measure of snowfall. I think it's a geographic exercise not a popularity contest, thus should be weighted by size of ski area, not how many people ski there. I said 2010-11 was the greatest snow year, never claimed it was the greatest skier visit year. 2010-11 happens to be #2 by that measure, but as we know snow is a key driver of skier visits but far from the only one. As many of you know excessive snowfall in California this year had a negative impact upon skier visits.

With regard to Geoff's comments about my Vermont chart, note I defined it as follows:

This chart is focused specifically on the highest snowfall areas ranging from Killington (250 inches) in the south through Sugarbush and Mad River to Stowe and Smugglers Notch (300 near the top of Mt. Mansfield) and finally Jay Peak (335 inches). Where information is available the grade is based upon the best of those 6 areas, since some Vermont locals demonstrate the ability to pick the right area within this compact region based upon recent weather and conditions.

JSpin's reports clearly fall within that definition. If I had defined the chart more narrowly based upon one area, or an average of all the Vermont areas, the results would look worse and Riverc0il and several other easterners would have been all over my case about how Vermont is geographically compact, so for short notice daytrip skiing they can choose the best place to go. This particular issue is a good example of how some of my opinions about eastern skiing are informed more by TR's I read here than by number crunching.

Geoff is free to make his own chart based upon New England, all of Vermont, Killington or the ski runs within a half mile radius of his house there.

 

[Patrick]

Divide the 1.9m between Tremblant and MSS...lower results for the medium to small areas. 400k for this season might about right

Actually that is my impression of the current season (lousy winter snow wise north of the St.Lawrence and greater competition from the south in term of snow conditions and low US dollars + other factors). I might totally mistaken as the only hard number I found was for 2006. Again, how higher than Alta or Snowbird.

I'm shocked that Alta did more than Snowbird in 1996. That sure as hell isn't the case now, I can virtually assure you.

Numbers I quoted were from 2006, not 96. So for that year, where I managed to find hard data. At 673k, Tremblant was way above your I'd be shocked if Tremblant does more than 400,000-500,000 skier visits per year comment.

But that doesn't give them more skier visits. That merely detracts further from your premise that Quebeckers ski more.

No, it goes against the fact that you stated that skiers that ski Tremblant are mostly locals (ie. Montrealers - people from Quebec wouldn't go much to Tremblant). Quebec skiers market is more divided across the province and northern New England. A good portion of them will ski strictly locals areas from the Laurentians or Eastern Townships. In fact, mainy of them now would ski Bromont. The less than 5% out of province probably applies to Bromont, even if it is relatively close to the border, but not Tremblant (as your previous statement).

I was making an assumption and as I stated before. Again, I wasn't necessarily comparing Boston skiers with Montreal, but more with people living in Dallas.

Please, let's stick to comparing apples to apples. People in Dallas aren't skiing in Quebec which is what this whole discussion is about. And for that matter they're not skiing in New England either.

Never said they did. I just mentioned that if you state demographic numbers, it will vary according to cities and location. For every skiers in Dallas compared to Boston, how many average days will each of them get? The discussion started by the fact that the Quebec skier market was negligible. You can't just say that there are 8 millions people which is roughly the same as Virginia or just less than Georgia, North Carolina or New Jersey. You would argue that they are the same proportion of skier in these four states/province? And if so, would they ski at the same frequency?

Precisely. The stated topic of this thread was snowfall in North American ski areas.

No, the title is The Greatest Snow Year of Our Lifetimes. It might be a record snow year (for example) in Alaska, but if the proportion of skiers taking advantage of it minimal...it wouldn't be for 99% of the skiers.

Patrick and I disagree on whether skier visits should factor into a measure of snowfall. I think it's a geographic exercise not a popularity contest, thus should be weighted by size of ski area, not how many people ski there.

I don't necessary disagree, however I disagree with the definition of this topic and the way it's presented.

 

[Admin]

No, it goes against the fact that you stated that skiers that ski Tremblant are mostly locals (ie. Montrealers - people from Quebec wouldn't go much to Tremblant).

No, I didn't say that. What I said was:

No matter what you think of your own backyard, no one - or damned near to no one - flies across the continent to ski in Quebec, Crocker notwithstanding. Nor do many drive to Quebec from NYC, Boston, Baltimore, Washington, etc. Relatively speaking eastern Canada's population is chump change compared to that of the northeastern US - you of all people know that's true. Quebec's skiers are nearly all day skiers or weekend warriors because few others are traveling to Quebec to ski.

My analysis proves that to be true.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I don't necessary disagree, however I disagree with the definition of this topic and the way it's presented.

????? I did not title the thread Record Skier Visit Season, I titled it Greatest Snow Year. Alaska (which had a bad year in 2010-11) does not carry big weight because it doesn't have many lift served ski areas. And when Manitoba gets going, it would count 1,000 acres by EMSC's definition, not 10,000. Colorado, western Canada, etc. have lots of lift served ski terrain; seems to me those places should be weighted accordingly in an overall snowfall rating.

Quebec's skiers are nearly all day skiers or weekend warriors because few others are traveling to Quebec to ski.

Probably true. Perhaps someone can find the Canadian equivalent of the Kottke report. I dug up the following with respect to U.S. Northeast skier visits in 2008-09:
48.1% lived in New England.
38.4% lived in NY, NJ or PA.
6.3% lived elsewhere in the U.S.
7.2% lived outside the U.S., presumably most of those are Canadian.

With the Canadian share of Northeast U.S. skier visits that low, it's likely that U.S. share of Quebec visits is not that big either. I recall being shocked that the U.S. share of interior B.C. visits was under 10% (don't remember the source, that was a few years back) given the quality/price value of the skiing there.

 

[Patrick]

Quebec's skiers are nearly all day skiers or weekend warriors because few others are traveling to Quebec to ski.

Probably true. Perhaps someone can find the Canadian equivalent of the Kottke report. I dug up the following with respect to Northeast skier visits in 2008-09:
48.1% lived in New England.
38.4% lived in NY, NJ or PA.
6.3% lived elsewhere in the U.S.
7.2% lived outside the U.S., presumably most of those are Canadian.

With the Canadian share of Northeast U.S. skier visits that low, it's likely that U.S. share of Quebec visits is not that big either. I recall being shocked that the U.S. share of interior B.C. visits was under 10% (don't remember the source, that was a few years back) given the quality/price value of the skiing there.

This is my biggest issue, are we talking virtually no one from outside Quebec, skis Quebec? Admin had problems believing that Tremblant's numbers. I was able to back it up with an actual ski-visit stat for 2006. I wasn't able to find how many out-of-province skiers there are, but I can assure you that it is more than simply a few. A huge guesstimate here, but I would say that Tremblant out-of-province skier-visit would be close to 1/3. 1/3 of 649k in 2006. As for the Canadians going to the NEast, you realized would big that region is? You should look at Northern NY, VT or Maine ski areas numbers. Yes, Canadians going to Hunter would non-existent. Kmart is the southern limit in Canadian attraction, everything south isn't as attractive (quality/distance). The cost of skiing in the US is only now becoming competitive with the exchange, however it is still more expensive.

As for the title, maybe it's the way the discussion went, but the fact that only certain regions representing a certain geography doesn't make it correct for the continent. Minimizing a few provinces/states and over one hundreds ski areas representing a good part of skiers visits.

 

[Admin]

A huge guesstimate here, but I would say that Tremblant out-of-province skier-visit would be close to 1/3.

Pure speculation with no basis in verifiable fact.

But none of this increases their skier visits. It just changes where they come from, and you've now morphed your original premise of "from the U.S." into "out of province" which you know full well is not the same thing. The bottom line remains that U.S. skier visits as a fraction of total Quebec skier visits is ridiculously low.

Admin had problems believing that Tremblant's numbers. I was able to back it up with an actual ski-visit stat for 2006.

Is there really a tremendous difference between 500,000 and 600,000? If you feel that there is fine, so be it. I don't. And by your own speculation my number was overestimated for 2010-11. So 500K seems like a reasonable average to me.

 

[Patrick]

But none of this increases their skier visits. It just changes where they come from, and you've now morphed your original premise of "from the U.S." into "out of province" which you know full well is not the same thing. The bottom line remains that U.S. skier visits as a fraction of total Quebec skier visits is ridiculously low.

The first comment used by Rob I believe was Local which I took exception to. Again, I don't think I've ever been pro-Quebec bias on this forum over the year. Yeck, I even started posting on FTO because I totally disagreed with a ex-poster rose-coloured vision of skiing in the Laurentians and the rest of Quebec versus the East in general. Ontario isn't local. It would like saying Boston skiers are locals at Stowe.

Pure speculation with no basis in verifiable fact.

It was also the first time I guesstimated the Tremblant, MSS numbers. I was surprised to find the Bromont number.

I've only been once to Tremblant in the last 3 seasons, so I might be out of touch. I have, somewhere :roll: in a box, a detailed analysis of the Quebec skiing visits from the late 80s. Pre-Intrawest when Tremblant was in trouble. I believe that there were an analysis of the origins of the skier-visits.

 

[Marc_C]

It would like saying Boston skiers are locals at Stowe.

There are tens of thousands of Boston skiers that have a house/condo at Stowe (or Sugarloaf or Sunday River or somewhere in the Mad River Valley) and are up there every weekend, often in the summer as well. That makes them a local as much as anyone else.

 

[rfarren]

Clearly Tony should torture the numbers so Patrick can be happy, perhaps that thread's title will read 2010-11 The worst snow year ever because quebec's was mediocre.

Talk about myopia...

 

[Patrick]

Clearly Tony should torture the numbers so Patrick can be happy, perhaps that thread's title will read 2010-11 The worst snow year ever because quebec's was mediocre.

No mytopia, against generalization. Eastern Townships had an excellent year, the rest in term of snow sucked. The NE at 102% isn't really a huge year, oh but I forgot, rfarren doesn't bother skiing East. :roll:

 

[Tony Crocker]

Talk about myopia...

I do see some of that. If I had made a similar post after the 2007-08 season (essentially tied for top 3 before 2010-11 and I probably mentioned that somewhere in passing) Geoff, Patrick, Riverc0il etc. would barely have commented at all because the Northeast was one of the top regions that year. Particularly Patrick as 2007-08 was unquestionably #1 in a long time for Quebec.

I forgot, rfarren doesn't bother skiing East.

I think he does some. But his allocation of where to ski is quite sensible living in NYC. It's much more difficult to get eastern quality from there than for the New England and Quebec residents. And it also tends to be cheaper/more convenient to fly west from NYC than less competitive metro areas.

 

[riverc0il]

If I had made a similar post after the 2007-08 season (essentially tied for top 3 before 2010-11 and I probably mentioned that somewhere in passing) Geoff, Patrick, Riverc0il etc. would barely have commented at all because the Northeast was one of the top regions that year.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Really Tony? You expect us east coast guys to keep tabs on the west coast and call your stats out when the west coast numbers you cite (where you are the expert) are off? Why would I question your numbers? I will leave that to admin and the western contingent. No. Logic dictates that I would only speak of an area where I have expertise and experience. If you said greatest snow year of our lifetimes and the east was significantly above average, no I would not say "the east had barely an average year so your title doesn't meet my experiences." Nor would I expect a western to keep quite in 07-08 if the west was average or less (of which, I have no idea).

All I am suggesting is changing the title. I think for a greatest snow year it would have to be above average across the board, particularly in areas of high ski area concentration (i.e. I don't think Indiana being below average should have as much weight as say NH being below average). If you said "Most Consistent Snow Year of our Lifetimes" I would absolutely agree. And if you limited your geographic area to the west, I would agree. Saying "our" includes me. So of course I am going to disagree because your catch all label doesn't match the entire eastern part of the continent as far as I can tell.

 

[Patrick]

If I had made a similar post after the 2007-08 season (essentially tied for top 3 before 2010-11 and I probably mentioned that somewhere in passing) Geoff, Patrick, Riverc0il etc. would barely have commented at all because the Northeast was one of the top regions that year.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Really Tony? You expect us east coast guys to keep tabs on the west coast and call your stats out when the west coast numbers you cite (where you are the expert) are off? Why would I question your numbers? I will leave that to admin and the western contingent. No. Logic dictates that I would only speak of an area where I have expertise and experience. If you said greatest snow year of our lifetimes and the east was significantly above average, no I would not say "the east had barely an average year so your title doesn't meet my experiences." Nor would I expect a western to keep quite in 07-08 if the west was average or less (of which, I have no idea).

All I am suggesting is changing the title. I think for a greatest snow year it would have to be above average across the board, particularly in areas of high ski area concentration (i.e. I don't think Indiana being below average should have as much weight as say NH being below average). If you said "Most Consistent Snow Year of our Lifetimes" I would absolutely agree. And if you limited your geographic area to the west, I would agree. Saying "our" includes me. So of course I am going to disagree because your catch all label doesn't match the entire eastern part of the continent as far as I can tell.

=D> =D> =D> =D>

Man, thanks Admin... without your hard work on the forum, we would have lost this excellent post by River.

I agree 100% on his points.

- On 2008: Why would I question your numbers from the West?
- Suggestion to change your title.
- Comments on the 'Our'

 

[Tony Crocker]

I think for a greatest snow year it would have to be above average across the board

As noted earlier, 1981-82 is the only other season with no region below average. So by Riverc0il's own definition 2010-11 is one of the top 2 seasons of the past 36 years. FYI California was the one region below average in 2007-08. That did not stop me from classifying it then as one of the top 3 overall ski seasons: http://bestsnow.net/seas08.htm. Sorry, but it's provincialism to say an overall season in North America can't be classified as great because your own region was average.

I went to the trouble of putting the entire chart going back to the 1970's color coded for easier viewing and casual analysis in my original post. If you look at that chart and don't see 2010-11 as standing out, I give up. I also note that Kottke, which does count all those Midwest molehills and thus implicitly weights by skier visits as Patrick advocates, says 2010-11 was the top snowfall season of the past 20 years they have been tracking.

I'll anticipate Patrick's response that Kottke does not include Canada. First, in western Canada Whistler was huge in 2010-11 and the rest of the region over 120%. In eastern Canada the areas where snowfall matters were not that bad. Le Massif was 92% and Patrick says the townships were close to average. The places that were crappy are temperature more than snowfall dependent, so not particularly relevant to this topic IMHO.

In summary, if Riverc0il wants to set the bar at no ski areas or subregions below average, there has probably never been or ever will be such a season. No question 2010-11 was poor in Alaska, New Mexico, the Southeast and maybe half of eastern Canada. That's a quite small fraction of skier visits and a much smaller fraction of North American ski terrain. Correction: Southeast was average; I remembered that it took a big drop from 2009-10 but forgot that was a banner year there.

 

[Patrick]

I'll anticipate Patrick's response that Kottke does not include Canada. First, in western Canada Whistler was huge in 2010-11 and the rest of the region over 120%. In eastern Canada the areas where snowfall matters were not that bad. Le Massif was 92% and Patrick says the townships were close to average.

Eastern Townships would have been the best region in Quebec. Not only average. Specifically example where Sutton totals exceeded Jay on 1-2 storms huge storms.

The places that were crappy are temperature more than snowfall dependent, so not particularly relevant to this topic IMHO.

Not sure what you're saying? Laurentians, Quebec City/Charlevoix aren't has temperature dependent as the Eastern Townships. It was the continued dry spell, but temps remained above freezing for a good part of the Winter. Little freeze/thaw cycles, but little snow.

Anyway, you measure reminds me of the quote in another thread talking about Vermont having it's 3rd biggest winter. Maybe in Burlington (what I suspect the quote was referring too), but not the state as a whole.

edit: Just did a quick check, Ottawa airport was at 73%.

 

[riverc0il]

No question 2010-11 was poor in Alaska, New Mexico, the Southeast and maybe half of eastern Canada. That's a quite small fraction of skier visits and a much smaller fraction of North American ski terrain.

Whoa, hold on a sec, I must have missed that part. So 10-11 was poor in Alaska, New Mexico, the Southeast, and half of Eastern Canada and it was only average in the entire east in general. Sounds to me like half of the ski areas in North America had an average or below average year if we were to start counting ski areas. And for the record, I am considering 102% average. I don't think it is really easy to tell the difference between 100% vs 102%.