Alps vs Western USA for young family

President's Week is not as much of an issue as one would think. It's mostly a New England/Northeast school construct to save energy - and extend the school year into June. Most other regions of the US do not have the entire week off. Vermont/New Hampshire are mobbed, but not necessarily Western Mountains outside the specific 3-day weekend.

For example, my brother has a business in Telluride that tracks skier days. President's Week is not a top #3-4 busy week. Instead, Telluride's busiest weeks are Christmas/New Year's and most of March. This can be verified by looking at lift pass sales to where we have limited visibility.

Some US areas to consider:
  • Snowmass/Aspen. Obviously, you are familiar. But things do not get much easier than a condo at Snowmass.
  • Telluride. The beginner terrain is amazing, uncrowded and directly out the door of Mountain Village. There is quite a bit to do in the old town. Very uncrowded.
  • Sun Valley. Again, excellent beginner terrain on a separate mountain. Very uncrowded.
  • Park City/Deer Valley. Friends ski here during President's Week and do not have major issues. Busier than most. Deer Valley seems serious about limiting lift ticket sales.
  • Jackson Hole. There is quite good beginner terrain at the base. Relatively uncrowded during the week. Weekends can be busy since the local population base is larger than one would think.

European areas:
  • Zermatt. I would likely avoid it. Beginner terrain is almost non-existent. If you look at where first-timers learn - it's awful. At the top of Sunnegga. Also, getting around town to a lift base is tough. Beautiful area. But I think things would be a hassle with a young child.
  • Kitzbuhel. Hmmm. I am not sure what the rain incidence is in town, but it's significant. Think it would be a bit depressing to show up in a green village with rain showers. Pretty place though. (Just go look at today's webcams - it's green halfway up Kitzbuhel). Great for golf in the valley.
  • St. Moritz. There is really some nice beginner terrain right above the village on Corviglia. You can find deals on lift tickets where 1 day at Vail $275 = 1 week at St. Moritz. Think this would be a great choice.
  • Dolomites/Val Gardena. Think this would be a good choice. Not sure about beginner terrain accessibility.
  • Lech/St. Anton. Lech is a very pretty village with decent beginner terrain. Could always take the train to Innsbruck for a day.

America does a few things much better than Europe:
  • Ski Service at all levels. In Europe, Guest Services are almost non-existent. Forget anyone answering questions at base areas, directing parking, slow skiing zones on overcrowded trails, or lift line management. Even grooming can be a bit lackluster in Europe. You will not really see a ski patrol presence on the mountains. Forget safety in a terrain park. You're on your own.
  • Ski School. I am not sure I like what I see. I was a ski instructor and patroller, and what I observe in Europe is a little questionable. The ESF (French ski school) seems to just do a 'follow me' approach - I am not sure if any student really gets that much feedback. I don't know exactly what goes on, but they seem to use techniques from 1970s....

Don't get me wrong, I likely prefer to ski in Europe versus US resorts do to extensive off-piste, less powder competition, food, ambiance, cost, etc However, the US does seem to service families a little better.
 
ChrisC said:
Jackson Hole. There is quite good beginner terrain at the base. Relatively uncrowded during the week. Weekends can be busy since the local population base is larger than one would think.
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Teewinot is indeed good for beginners. But the blue runs, though well groomed, would be single black at most ski areas. So I think it's tough place for low intermediates. Better than Snowbird for true beginners though.

President's Week is the borderline time frame for when the sun becomes an issue. And it becomes an issue first on the easier Apres Vous side of the mountain which faces due south. Grooming is good, but you will see melt freeze conditions perhaps half the time during President's Week.
 
Tony Crocker said:
Teewinot is indeed good for beginners. But the blue runs, though well groomed, would be single black at most ski areas. So I think it's tough place for low intermediates. Better than Snowbird for true beginners though.

President's Week is the borderline time frame for when the sun becomes an issue. And it becomes an issue first on the easier Apres Vous side of the mountain which faces due south. Grooming is good, but you will see melt freeze conditions perhaps half the time during President's Week.
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I have been to Jackson each of the last four superbowl weekends and can attest to all of this. Apres Vous laps to start the morning are wonderful but are skid off quickly and are downright dangerous by the afternoon. They are steeper than your average blue groomed run and are definietly for more advanced skiers. Saratoga Bowl has been essentially unskiable in this period barring lots of fresh snow. We work our way towards the other side of the mountain throughout the day, ultimately gravitating towards the chaded Tower 3 Chute area off of Thunder and the Alta Chutes area off of Sublette. But the hobacks or anything with the wrong exposure, even in February, is unskiable. Teewinot while good for beginners gets lumped in with the shitshow at the base area which has become pretty bad since Ikon. The mountain has a tough time dealing with these crowds though the new Thunder lift was a massive improvement to what was a big bottle neck. I'd also be worried about the kids graduating from Teewinot to the mellow area around Casper which is basically a hotbed of drunk out of control skiers/boarders. Having said all of that, on an uncrowded week in January, I agree with the assessment that it offers a lot to families. But I think a holiday week later in the season would be a problem.
 
ChrisC said:
President's Week is not as much of an issue as one would think. It's mostly a New England/Northeast school construct to save energy - and extend the school year into June. Most other regions of the US do not have the entire week off. Vermont/New Hampshire are mobbed, but not necessarily Western Mountains outside the specific 3-day weekend.

For example, my brother has a business in Telluride that tracks skier days. President's Week is not a top #3-4 busy week. Instead, Telluride's busiest weeks are Christmas/New Year's and most of March. This can be verified by looking at lift pass sales to where we have limited visibility.

Some US areas to consider:
  • Snowmass/Aspen. Obviously, you are familiar. But things do not get much easier than a condo at Snowmass.
  • Telluride. The beginner terrain is amazing, uncrowded and directly out the door of Mountain Village. There is quite a bit to do in the old town. Very uncrowded.
  • Sun Valley. Again, excellent beginner terrain on a separate mountain. Very uncrowded.
  • Park City/Deer Valley. Friends ski here during President's Week and do not have major issues. Busier than most. Deer Valley seems serious about limiting lift ticket sales.
  • Jackson Hole. There is quite good beginner terrain at the base. Relatively uncrowded during the week. Weekends can be busy since the local population base is larger than one would think.

European areas:
  • Zermatt. I would likely avoid it. Beginner terrain is almost non-existent. If you look at where first-timers learn - it's awful. At the top of Sunnegga. Also, getting around town to a lift base is tough. Beautiful area. But I think things would be a hassle with a young child.
  • Kitzbuhel. Hmmm. I am not sure what the rain incidence is in town, but it's significant. Think it would be a bit depressing to show up in a green village with rain showers. Pretty place though. (Just go look at today's webcams - it's green halfway up Kitzbuhel). Great for golf in the valley.
  • St. Moritz. There is really some nice beginner terrain right above the village on Corviglia. You can find deals on lift tickets where 1 day at Vail $275 = 1 week at St. Moritz. Think this would be a great choice.
  • Dolomites/Val Gardena. Think this would be a good choice. Not sure about beginner terrain accessibility.
  • Lech/St. Anton. Lech is a very pretty village with decent beginner terrain. Could always take the train to Innsbruck for a day.

America does a few things much better than Europe:
  • Ski Service at all levels. In Europe, Guest Services are almost non-existent. Forget anyone answering questions at base areas, directing parking, slow skiing zones on overcrowded trails, or lift line management. Even grooming can be a bit lackluster in Europe. You will not really see a ski patrol presence on the mountains. Forget safety in a terrain park. You're on your own.
  • Ski School. I am not sure I like what I see. I was a ski instructor and patroller, and what I observe in Europe is a little questionable. The ESF (French ski school) seems to just do a 'follow me' approach - I am not sure if any student really gets that much feedback. I don't know exactly what goes on, but they seem to use techniques from 1970s....

Don't get me wrong, I likely prefer to ski in Europe versus US resorts do to extensive off-piste, less powder competition, food, ambiance, cost, etc However, the US does seem to service families a little better.
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Thanks for this, this is very helpful. Interesting points on Presidents Week. It has been years since I have been anywhere other than Aspen where there are never any issues but I have just assumed that the usual spots just get slammed that week. But I suppose it might not be as bad as Christmas or Spring Break or MLK. Most of the schools in our area give the week off so it was always the main ski week.

As to your suggestions. I think a condo at snowmass is a perfect compromise with the Mrs and I would say barring figuring Europe out it makes the most sense. We have friends that will keep going to Aspen so it would allow us to meet up for a dinner or two and ski together a day or two. The NYC-Vail 2x daily flights are more expensive for sure but Vail rarely has the problems Aspen does with bad weather so Im not that scared away from flying into there. I am sure pricing is crazy that week but Im not all too devastated if that is the compromise we all reach--from a skiing perspective and logistics perspective it totally fits the bill.

Telluride could be interesting, there is a daily, maybe two nonstops to Montrose. Probably similar pricing to Snowmass. I havent been in years, I never enjoyed my trips there quite as much as Aspen specifically with regard to the skiing but I was younger and may have missed some things.

Sun Valley just doesn't seem like my kind of place, probably not enough tough skiing to keep me interested.

I have done this week at Park City several times and always have enjoyed staying in the Canyons Village. It offers pretty good condo value and the access skiing wise is significantly better than staying in town and being on the Park City side. The ski school is great there and the 9990/Chair 5 area gives just barely enough to keep me occupied. If the flights to SLC were significantly cheaper than Vail I would always consider it, it really is just much easier to get to. And the town probably offers my wife just enough. Not Aspen but enough.

I agree on Zermatt. We stayed across the street from Sunnega to make life easier but it does not strike me as the easiest place with kids.

The rain thing definitely is the main drawback from what Ive read on here about Kitz. The proposition seem easy and alluring otherwise. But grass and rain would definitely kill the vibe of the trip. I suppose if I could ever figure out multiple lodging scenarios with free cancellation it could be an option with a backup option at higher elevation. But Id think half term week thats challenging.

St Moritz was a great trip. I could see if being perfect for this. Really my only concern and its not really a big one is that I've found the sweet spot of Europe trips to be 4 star half board very small hotels. I thought Arlberg and Zermatt had these types of places in spades. St Moritz has a few but is really dominated by some massive well out of my budget hotels. So I'd think somewhat less lodging options during that week but probably doable.

I thought of Lech because when I stayed in the Arlberg, in Stuben, I thought it to be the most charming village we skid through and that it all seemed very simple with the skiing directly above the town and the slopes significantly less congested than the St Anton side of things. But I could see it being more crowded than other places during the holidays.

Your comments on the ski schools definitely give me pause and its not the first time I have read/heard similar feedback. Places like snowmass limit group sizes, there are no language barriers, and the teachers seem like they know what theyre doing. I've got no doubt theyll spit out a good skiier in a few years if I let them do their thing. Your last comment about preferring Europe yourself but likely thinking USA services families a bit better is basically how I feel, so its just trying to figure out if its worth it and if there is a hack to make it a little easier.
 
There seems to be a convergence of opinion that Aspen is the best choice in the US and St. Moritz in the Alps for Skiandgolfnut's family criteria.

The deterioration at Jackson from sun effect seems to me an abrupt process. In 2012 Liz and I skied there Feb. 6-9, the 4 days after the Super Bowl, and had similar conditions as in my late January trips. The strong inversion kept the lower mountain under 10F, so Apres Vous groomers were good all day and skiing on the Lower Faces was enjoyable too. I think that was the first time we skied out the Rock Springs gate as well.

During the :snowfight: about inversions in Salt Lake, I found a graph showing that SLC's inversion season is from mid-December to about a week into February. Inversions are occasional in SLC but Jackson is much colder, always snow covered, and surrounded by mountains on all sides. Therefore inversions are the rule more than the exception during the colder months. It's also logical to assume they persist a week or two longer than in SLC due to the higher latitude and overall colder temps.

But of course weather is variable. In 2015 we skied Jackson Jan. 21-24 with the usual inversion conditions. But there was a massive warmup on Jan. 26. We skied Alta Jan. 27 and it was only 40% winter conditions and there's a comment about the High T being bulletproof. So I suspect Jackson was not good in that scenario.
 
Tony Crocker said:
There seems to be a convergence of opinion that Aspen is the best choice in the US and St. Moritz in the Alps for Skiandgolfnut's family criteria.
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Didn't the OP basically say he's done with Aspen in his opening comments copied below -- ergo, he's looking for options?

skiandgolfnut said:
Our trip to Aspen this year was more or less a giant clusterfuck. We go there every year because the women like it and its typically not crowded even on holiday weeks but the logistics of children–ski school at buttermilk, skiing at AJAX/Highlands, made staying in town a pain in the ass for Dad. Lots of driving, not easy. Not to mention, its probably the most expensive option there is and the vibe/culture of the place in my opinion has gone to shit over the last ten years. Too much money in, no character, really not the kind of place I want my children to grow up skiing. (...) Aspen airport remains undefeated at wrecking vacation plans and the two daily NYC-Eagle flights presidents week are typically $1000+ for a coach seat.
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He did, but ChrisC and I both thought he had been going to the right place with his family. No one is more obsessive about trying new places than Liz and I, but he should be aware that other places might be more crowded or have more difficult logistics with kids.

Adam's out of state destination trips did not start until age 7 when he was already a strong advanced skier. But in general they were road warrior trips on his spring break, the week containing the first of April:
Age 7: Fly to Durango, ski Crested Butte and Telluride as well as Purgatory.
Age 8: Fly to Albuquerque, ski Taos 3 days, then a road marathon to Trinity Site, White Sands, Alamogordo space museum, Carlsbad Caverns and Ski Apache.
Age 9: SLC, ski the Cottonwood Canyons
Age 10: Jackson and Targhee
Age 11: Mammoth
Age 12: Summit County CO
Age 13: Whistler
Age 14: Calgary loop, Castle, Fernie, RK Heli, Lake Louise, Sunshine

We met Al Solish in 1994 so Adam and I took a 4 day trip to Iron Blosam every year starting with his age 11 season, in addition to the above.
 
jamesdeluxe said:
Didn't the OP basically say he's done with Aspen in his opening comments copied below -- ergo, he's looking for options
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Definitely done with Aspen proper, staying in town and dealing with Buttermilk etc. In a world where Europe proves impossible or too impractical and NYC-Vail flights are not that much more exorbitant than NYC-SLC flights I'd definitely consider staying in Snowmass. As far as domestic options it checks off most of the boxes.
 
I would presume with young kids Snowmass would be the base of choice. Buttermilk may be the dedicated beginner hill, but the lower parts of Snowmass are very mellow and equally suitable IMHO. And you can get big vertical at the low intermediate level from Elk Camp.
 
I understand it’s not for everyone but I’ve taken little kids on trips that have involved getting in the car to travel to the hill each day. It’s no big deal really.
It opens a lot of possibilities.
 
Sbooker said:
I understand it’s not for everyone but I’ve taken little kids on trips that have involved getting in the car to travel to the hill each day. It’s no big deal really.
It opens a lot of possibilities.
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Depends on the kid. Adam would fall asleep at the drop of a hat in the car, thus easy for travel, even as a toddler or preschooler. My second son Andrew was not so easy at all.
 
When I am alone I dont care to be near the hill. Stay down the canyon in LCC to save $$ plenty of times and I actually wouldn't have any issue doing so with kids, especially with the added costs of ski school etc. The issue with Aspen is if you stay downtown and your kid learns at buttermilk, it is not just a one way trip. Its leave town and get to Buttermilk at 9, then get in car and drive to either highlands ajax or two creeks for adult skiing, then boots off and back in car to get back to buttermilk for pickup then boots on for a few runs with the kids and then boots off back in car for drive back to town. Its essentially getting in the car 4 times instead of 2 times.
 
Yes that sounds like a PITA. It would not occur to me to stay in Aspen rather than Snowmass with small kids. Aspen/Snowmass is also set up with a good bus system and actively discourages driving during the ski day. On the other hand there no parking issues if you're staying in Snowmass and want to drive to Aspen for dinner.
 
jamesdeluxe said:
Given traffic and parking issues these days, staying down-canyon from the Cottonwoods is no longer the winning strategy it was in the past, definitely not on weekends or powder days
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Yes, we appreciate Iron Blosam week even more these days. However the legendary "country club" ski days seem to be exceedingly rare. Last Wednesday the road was delayed to 9:30 but so were the lifts.

Also on those busy powder days don't expect the UTA buses to meet their schedules. Depending on expected opening there are days I might prefer to start at Alta. But the only way up there from Iron Blosam is the UTA bus which only runs every half hour even when it's on time.
 
jamesdeluxe said:
Given traffic and parking issues these days, staying down-canyon from the Cottonwoods is no longer the winning strategy it was in the past, definitely not on weekends or powder days.
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Maybe if they had a $100 M ++ Gondola/S3 lift……
 
If I were you, I'd go to St. Moritz, Lech or Dolomites. Zurich and/or Munich airports service all of them quite well.

(In my opinion, Geneva is OK (60/70s nightmare), but Zurich or Munich is German efficiency.

I'd recommend French resorts like Va d'Isere, Tignes, Courchevel, and Val Thorens - they all have slopeside accommodations - but they are busy for your dates.

And Telluride - I have an extremely loving view of the community/town/skiing - it's really good.

(This group also ignores that Telluride's Bear Creek is the best side county skiing in the West and is European in scope with 4500 ft vertical descents. I'm done with educating them. They can play in Snowbird and Jackson - with a lot of crowds).

I can go ski untracked snow almost any day I want in Telluride in its side country. It's not a one-and-done Snowbird, Alta, Jackson, etc. ... and everything everywhere all at once hell of Vail/Breckenridge/Copper/Etc.
 
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Telluride is like Europe:

IMG_3226.jpg
 
How often is Bear Creek safe in uncontrolled notoriously sketchy San Juan snowpack? We knew it was unsafe when we were in Telluride about this time in 2019.

Inbounds high alpine skiing is very limited vs. many of my favorites. Adam's quote from 2004 still rings true," Why are we skiing down here instead of up there?" It's obvious from ChrisC's Euro TR's that 13,000 foot Palmyra Peak is a stroll in the park for him. For 99% of us mortal flatlanders, no.

Kachina Peak is an obvious analogy, and we skied it one week after Telluride. Telluride has nothing comparable with direct lift access.
 
ChrisC said:
If I were you, I'd go to St. Moritz, Lech or Dolomites. Zurich and/or Munich airports service all of them quite well.

(In my opinion, Geneva is OK (60/70s nightmare), but Zurich or Munich is German efficiency.

I'd recommend French resorts like Va d'Isere, Tignes, Courchevel, and Val Thorens - they all have slopeside accommodations - but they are busy for your dates.

And Telluride - I have an extremely loving view of the community/town/skiing - it's really good.

(This group also ignores that Telluride's Bear Creek is the best side county skiing in the West and is European in scope with 4500 ft vertical descents. I'm done with educating them. They can play in Snowbird and Jackson - with a lot of crowds).

I can go ski untracked snow almost any day I want in Telluride in its side country. It's not a one-and-done Snowbird, Alta, Jackson, etc. ... and everything everywhere all at once hell of Vail/Breckenridge/Copper/Etc.
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I suppose what I like about Europe is the relatively easy access guided off piste. Most mountains have either groups that can be joined or private guides that if pooled with a couple friends remains less expensive than a day ticket at Vail. A paid private guide at a major US resort A)is not taking me side country and B)is an obscene expense. It is a glorified line cutting scheme. I have gone side country a few times with locals/friends in Jackson but for the most part feel more comfortable with a guide.

Agree with your recommendations.
 
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