AltaBird, UT 4/23-24/11

[Admin]

Days 80-81

Saturday, April 23: Mid-winter in late April.

Temperatures in the teens, snowing moderately...it felt more like mid-winter than late April. Things you'd expect to be good, like Susie's Trees, were refrozen crud. Things that you didn't expect to be good were surprisingly fun, like Liftline under Collins. I didn't make it up until the crack o'noon thanks to working on Amy's computer until 2 a.m. Friday night. Her Outlook files reminded me of the TV show Hoarders. We didn't start working on it until 9 p.m. and it was far worse than I ever could have imagined.

I was skiing with Amy and friend Pat. As much fun as I was having, by 3:30 p.m. I was ready to head down canyon and take a nap.

Of note, I ran into Jim "Wasatch Weather Weenie" Steenburgh at Watson's with his 12-year-old son Eric. Jim seems to think more of the Monday/Tuesday storm than the NWS does. He believes that this may be the one to get us up to a 200-inch base after we've been tantalizingly close for weeks now. If so, that could be the one that pushes us to 700" YTD, too.

Sunday, April 24: Happy Easter!

It was supposed to be cloudy all day with snow developing. We got the latter beginning around 1 p.m., but we were surprisingly blessed for the holiday by one of the first truly sunny mornings that I can recall this spring.

Alta was absolutely, positively deserted, even quieter than Saturday if that had seemed possible.. We picked up 2" of new snow overnight, too, so the skiing was mighty fine, especially on Backside. We had planned to lap Backside for seconds, but were momentarily distracted by Mineral Basin.

The plan was to simply cruise into Mineral and return to Alta via Baldy Express, but we all screwed up and skied down to Mineral Basin Express. No biggie, we'd simply ride MBE and ski back down to Baldy Express.

When we arrived at Hidden Peak, however, we noticed that the Knucklehead Traverse was open. Gad 2 hasn't been running in weeks, so everything out there is now officially backcountry. And my, oh my was it fine today!

We skied Upper Tigertail. At this point I accidentally put my cell phone camera into 640x480 mode, something I'm kicking myself for now escpecially because we later rode Baldy Express above three young women skiing in bikini tops and bottoms. :lol:

As Bobby would say, smooooooth!

From Snowbird Creekside we returned to Alta via Gadzoom, Little Cloud, Path to Paradise, The Bookends and Baldy Express. Lunch at Watsons was a treat with the usual spring roots rock/blues band playing.

In literally the time it took to eat a burger the weather went from clear blue skies to socked in and snowing. Light went completely flat. Bobby and Telejon returned to Snowbird for one more Gad 2 lap while I remained at Alta with Pat and Amy. Some of the younger crowd were now gathering in costume on Collins so we went over to Sugarloaf and truly had the lift to ourselves. It was fun cruising the groomers over there like Devil's Elbow, Rollercoaster and Extrovert with no one else on them, but light went completely flat with the deteriorating weather and I left a little after 3 to go home and clean up to prepare for Easter dinner. I started typing this post before showering and had nearly completed it when my laptop screen went dark. Then it wouldn't even reboot thereafter without the same thing happening. I managed to pull a cached version out of Firefox this morning by pulling the hard drive and cabling it to my desktop machine.

We all gathered at Amy's where I deep fried a turkey, Pat made a ham and her famed "funeral potatoes" and we celebrated Easter together. A disk check of the laptop hard drive came back relatively clean, but I'll go out and grab another hard drive today and try that before I conclude that the laptop motherboard failed (the graphics card is onboard). Today is likely a geeking day for me. :?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Alta was absolutely, positively deserted, even quieter than Saturday if that had seemed possible..

Supporting admin's view that May 1 will be more recognized as the real closing day.

 

[berkshireskier]

Hard to believe those photos are from almost May 1. Looks like mid-Winter. Makes you realize that there are not many lift served ski areas in the world that have the length and quality of ski season that you do in Utah.

 

[EMSC]

Hard to believe those photos are from almost May 1. Looks like mid-Winter. Makes you realize that there are not many lift served ski areas in the world that have the length and quality of ski season that you do in Utah and Colorado.

Fixed it for you. Colo has had a ton of snow over the last couple of weeks too... I just haven't been able to get out there to show everyone pictures of it... (I'm sure Bachelor etc.. have been doing great too).

 

[Bobby Danger]

it should surpass the seven hundred inch mark with this storm y.t.d.. just about every condition possible was had sunday , starting out cloudy in the morning , slowly clearing burning off the clouds to 100% sunshine , that's when the skiing got sweet , it took about one and a half hours to properly soften the subsurface snow to the point of perfection . out on upper tiger tail area it was still 100% supportable with 2 to 3" of angel dust to blow around up high , lower down the mtn. was quite nice , only at the very bottom did the snow soften to the point of damp . and in the afternoon when jon and i returned for a slightly longer tiger tail starting from joint point on the ridge accessing a north northeast shot that was the dreammmmmmmist pow their was (still winter snow) of the entire weekend. by this point in the day it had clouded back over and was snowing hard making the day really only a hint of spring ,maybe next month i wouldn't bet on it though may is the wettest month here . last year the first four days of may saw eight feet fall starting the month out right , let's hope for something close. it bothers me to much to say anything about alta's closing this weekend it's a crime

 

[Tony Crocker]

Hard to believe those photos are from almost May 1. Looks like mid-Winter. Makes you realize that there are not many lift served ski areas in the world that have the length and quality of ski season that you do in Utah.

Yes, but we all know who will still be spinning lifts on July 4. :stir:

 

[Bobby Danger]

now i know what the fish in the water is thinking when the worm floates by

 

[Admin]

Hard to believe those photos are from almost May 1. Looks like mid-Winter. Makes you realize that there are not many lift served ski areas in the world that have the length and quality of ski season that you do in Utah.

Yes, but we all know who will still be spinning lifts on July 4. :stir:

Yeah, Snowbird and also some substandard California molehill.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

 

[EMSC]

Hard to believe those photos are from almost May 1. Looks like mid-Winter. Makes you realize that there are not many lift served ski areas in the world that have the length and quality of ski season that you do in Utah.

Yes, but we all know who will still be spinning lifts on July 4. :stir:

Yeah, Snowbird and also some substandard California molehill.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

And Timberline and Blackcomb and unlikely, but maybe A-basin and...

 

[Tony Crocker]

Has there been any official closing date announcement from Snowbird yet? Last year Alta had 696 inches and Snowbird still closed June 20.

Snowbird's website doesn't commit to anything past Memorial Day and even announces "Saturday, June 18th: Summer Activities will open for Father’s Day Weekend or sooner depending on weather conditions."
http://www.snowbird.com/imagelib/skiand ... _04_11.pdf

And Timberline and Blackcomb and unlikely, but maybe A-basin and...

There is also the issue, as we are frequently reminded by the Utards, of quality. A-Basin closes Pali by mid-May. Blackcomb doesn't let the public on its glacier until noon when the snow is slop. And Timberline is limited to prepped groomers, race courses and a park.

Snowbird is the only late (past mid-May) location that is comparable to Mammoth's terrain quality, but management's commitment to late season skiing is far less. I do not question whether Snowbird has the snow this season to stay open to July 4, but I do question whether management will put in the effort to make it happen. This minimalist effort can also result in a lower quality ski experience when the weather does not cooperate in producing good natural corn.

Another consequence of the minimalist effort:

in contrast to Snowbird's massive lift line at Little Cloud, Mammoth ran 2 HS quads (1&3), the 8-passenger gondola and the fixed triple chair 23 to handle a similar crowd. Thus the only line was 5-10 minutes on chair 3, because it serves the terrain park Mammoth built in Saddle Bowl in late May.

 

[Admin]

Crocker, mark my words they'll go for it this year (they last did so in 2005 - you seem to have a short memory). You go have fun at Mammoth for after all, of course it's a superior experence! :roll:

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

 

[Marc_C]

Has there been any official closing date announcement from Snowbird yet? Last year Alta had 696 inches and Snowbird still closed June 20.

Snowbird's website doesn't commit to anything past Memorial Day and even announces "Saturday, June 18th: Summer Activities will open for Father’s Day Weekend or sooner depending on weather conditions."

Snowbird never, ever commits beyond Memorial Day prior to mid-May, and even the Memorial Day commitment is "subject to weather and snow conditions". There was one season this past decade where things were looking great at the start of May, then we had a sudden, multi-week, significantly warmer than normal pattern (it was in the mid-90's in the valley). We lost so much snowpack - literally a foot a day for a while - so quickly that they had no choice but to close after the second weekend.

Another consequence of the minimalist effort:
Image

Tony Crocker, July 2005 wrote:in contrast to Snowbird's massive lift line at Little Cloud, Mammoth ran 2 HS quads (1&3), the 8-passenger gondola and the fixed triple chair 23 to handle a similar crowd. Thus the only line was 5-10 minutes on chair 3, because it serves the terrain park Mammoth built in Saddle Bowl in late May.

That crowding had absolutely nothing to do with the so called "minimalist effort".

It was entirely because of:
* the novelty of skiing on July 4 brought a *huge* amount of people out - many who had stopped skiing at the end of April
* Mineral Basin was unconsolidated, brutally unpleasant slop by 9am.
* There was no snow on the mountain below about 9800', rendering any skiing below Little Cloud to "some skiing with a significant hike back to the Tram plaza".
* Much of the Regulator side of the bowl was melted out and the bits that remained pretty sparse. You could not ski from the Tram down to anything in the bowl. All the Gad Chutes were toast.

 

[berkshireskier]

Hard to believe those photos are from almost May 1. Looks like mid-Winter. Makes you realize that there are not many lift served ski areas in the world that have the length and quality of ski season that you do in Utah.

Yes, but we all know who will still be spinning lifts on July 4. :stir:

Not to get into the middle of this argument, BUT it does seem like a shame to close down Alta with that much coverage on the mountain. I assume that it is an economic decision - that there are simply not enough skiers coming to ski to make it feasible to cover the marginal costs of running the area day to day? I would have guessed, though, that in a metropolitan area the size of SLC, that Alta could attract enough skiers on weekends, at least, to cover the costs but I guess I am wrong. Are there other factors at play here?

 

[Tony Crocker]

they last did so in 2005 - you seem to have a short memory

As noted in picture and quote above. 1984 and maybe 1995 are the only other July lift served seasons for Snowbird. Vs. 1982, 1983, 1986, 1993, 1995, 1998, 2005, 2006, 2010 at Mammoth.

Whatever the reason for the crowding, Mammoth has the capacity and layout to handle it and Snowbird doesn't.

We lost so much snowpack - literally a foot a day for a while - so quickly that they had no choice but to close after the second weekend.

The lower water content snow is more vulnerable to these meltdowns. Mammoth has already committed to July 4.

We covered the skier demand issues raised by berkshireskier thoroughly last year:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8965&start=15
Utah's late season demand does not compare to Mammoth's. Not only does Alta close, but Snowbird runs only 3 days per week with far less lift capacity than Mammoth. Mammoth also has race camps midweek to help pay the bills.

I am impressed by many of admin's June reports since 2005. When Snowbird is still skiable to the bottom (not to mention the backcountry runs into Alta) the quality of skiing is outstanding when timing the corn right. But this sidecountry experience is even more of a niche market. Mammoth's salted groomers make skiing more pleasant for a much broader range of skiers, and even for us nutcases they are a pleasant place to spend one's time waiting for the snow to soften on the steeps.

 

[Marc_C]

Not to get into the middle of this argument, BUT it does seem like a shame to close down Alta with that much coverage on the mountain. I assume that it is an economic decision - that there are simply not enough skiers coming to ski to make it feasible to cover the marginal costs of running the area day to day?

Correct. They've analyzed the numbers repeatedly, to their satisfaction, and have decided that the ROI just isn't there.

I would have guessed, though, that in a metropolitan area the size of SLC, that Alta could attract enough skiers on weekends, at least, to cover the costs but I guess I am wrong.

Yep. Even Snowbird likely only hits break-even.

Are there other factors at play here?

1. Alta's numbers are also adversely affected by their snowboard ban.
2. Staffing becomes a big issue - a significant portion of the seasonal staff is already at their summer jobs of guiding river, hunting, canyoneering, and climbing trips or working as ranch hands and oil well wildcatters.

 

[Admin]

When Snowbird is still skiable to the bottom (not to mention the backcountry runs into Alta) the quality of skiing is outstanding when timing the corn right. But this sidecountry experience is even more of a niche market. Mammoth's salted groomers make skiing more pleasant for a much broader range of skiers, and even for us nutcases they are a pleasant place to spend one's time waiting for the snow to soften on the steeps.

Like I said, go ahead and enjoy the wonderful and vastly superior Mammoth, Mr. Statistics.

 

[berkshireskier]

Not to get into the middle of this argument, BUT it does seem like a shame to close down Alta with that much coverage on the mountain. I assume that it is an economic decision - that there are simply not enough skiers coming to ski to make it feasible to cover the marginal costs of running the area day to day?

Correct. They've analyzed the numbers repeatedly, to their satisfaction, and have decided that the ROI just isn't there.

I would have guessed, though, that in a metropolitan area the size of SLC, that Alta could attract enough skiers on weekends, at least, to cover the costs but I guess I am wrong.

Yep. Even Snowbird likely only hits break-even.

Are there other factors at play here?

1. Alta's numbers are also adversely affected by their snowboard ban.
2. Staffing becomes a big issue - a significant portion of the seasonal staff is already at their summer jobs of guiding river, hunting, canyoneering, and climbing trips or working as ranch hands and oil well wildcatters.

Thanks for the info. I figured that there had to be more than just pure economic numbers at play here (although my guess is that, if it were profitable to stay open, they would find a way to remain open). Unfortunately for the ski areas, when the temperatures warm up and people see green grass in their back yards, they (with the exception of a few hard core skiers) are NOT thinking about skiing, despite the conditions in the mountains.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Like I said, go ahead and enjoy the wonderful and vastly superior Mammoth, Mr. Statistics.

I have often said Snowbird is overall my favorite ski area anywhere. But there is ample evidence that Mammoth usually provides a more consistent ski experience from late April onwards. I have also said that I prefer Alta to Snowbird when the base is less than 70 inches.

 

[Admin]

But there is ample evidence that Mammoth usually provides a more consistent ski experience from late April onwards.

Hey Mr. "Ample Evidence": precisely how many times have you skied LCC from late April onwards? Inquiring minds would like to know.

 

[Staley]

I've never skied anywhere after mid-May, but the Eastern Sierra almost certainly has bigger and better spring touring than the Wasatch. I think I'd personally get tired of skiing the same limited runs late-season, so backcountry takes on a larger importance. The Eastern Sierra and Tioga (when it opens) is truly endless. There's more than a lifetime or day-accessible skiing, and with a nice tent and a large pack...