Bank threatens to remove Tamarack ski lifts

jamesdeluxe":2bygv777 said:
Instead of arguing a moot point, Admin should "leverage" :lol: his bottomless pit of ski area contacts and tell us who is going to step up and take over Tamarack. Vail again?

None of my contacts own crystal balls, but I doubt that it would be VR -- Tamarack doesn't fit their model. I'd more expect someone like JMA Ventures for there's a closer fit.

ASC became overly leveraged by using junk bonds to finance ski resort acquisition and development. About the only similarity is that they spent more than they could afford. Other than that, there are few parallels between ASC and Tamarack.
 
We all know that ASC sucked the life blood out of Killington, Mount Snow, and other profit-producing EC hills and dumped it into The Canyons.

Not initially. At first they pumped some money into places like K and especially Sugarbush. Only after those initial few years did they start sucking $$ out of the EC resorts.

ASC became overly leveraged by using junk bonds to finance ski resort acquisition and development.

Especially overpaying for Heavenly, Canyons and Steamboat. I don't recall the 'Boat ever getting much attention, if any. By then they were out of cash. But Heavenly did get a $25M plus gondola and new base structures and the Tamarack lift and etc... Vail loved buying up that asset for a song immediately after ASC spent he cash on those items. My favorite move of ASC was throwing tons of $$ at it's execs to move them from Maine to Utah despite all the resorts they owned in the east. Similar story as Vail actually, move the HQ to whee the CEO would prefer to live no matter the business rational or costs involved. At least Vail had the cash to do so though, unlike ASC at the time it did it's move.

None of my contacts own crystal balls, but I doubt that it would be VR -- Tamarack doesn't fit their model. I'd more expect someone like JMA Ventures for there's a closer fit.

Though it is true that VR and Intrawest will each show up to look over virtually any and all assets like this (doesn't mean a bid is forthcoming though). VR would have the capability financially, Intrawest less so due to the huge Fortress leverage. Like admin, somehow I'd think a real estate player would be the most interested given the amount of infrastructure left to go.
 
What are the differences between VR's and JMA's models?

My favorite move of ASC was throwing tons of $$ at it's execs to move them from Maine to Utah despite all the resorts they owned in the east. Similar story as Vail actually, move the HQ to whee the CEO would prefer to live no matter the business rational or costs involved.
That is classic. So basically, if ASC had kept itself East Coast-based and not gambled on becoming a Utah-based version of VR, it would still be around today?
 
jamesdeluxe":1ub79kia said:
What are the differences between VR's and JMA's models?

VR is a resort operator that focuses on established first-tier ski and golf resorts that happen to have real estate opportunities. Their primary focus is on the resort experience. Their preferred destinations have reasonable access to both destination and drive-up traffic, much like Intrawest.

JMA, on the other hand, is a large commercial real estate developer first. They've just recently started snatching up ski resorts, often in remote locations like Tamarack (e.g. Red Lodge). They own large tracts of commercial development in places like downtown San Francisco. For them it's all about the real estate -- ski resort operations are secondary.

JMA is more akin to Talisker, which bought The Canyons from ASC, than it is to VR. I see VR as more likely interested in acquiring a property like Stowe, to geographically diversify their ski resort holdings as a hedge against a poor season in one part of the country (they're too heavily invested in Colorado right now). With the new Spruce Peak development (read: RockResort), a first-class ski experience for its region and a mix of drive-up and destination traffic (a surprising number of Brits fly across the pond to visit Stowe), Stowe is a match made in heaven for a company like VR.
 
Returning to your regularly scheduled Tamarack discussion...

VR is a resort operator that focuses on established first-tier ski and golf resorts that happen to have real estate opportunities. Their primary focus is on the resort experience. Their preferred destinations have reasonable access to both destination and drive-up traffic, much like Intrawest.

Stowe is a match made in heaven for a company like VR.

All very true. However I don't see VR buying Stowe. Already a bit too snooty (as in the asking price is likely too high). VR likes to take places that are 75 or 80% of the way that they can get for a reasonable price and then take them up that next step or two into more premier level places. Examples being Breck, Keystone and Heavenly. None of them exactly glamorous places when VR got them, but solid, decent, mostly built and still 'everyman' kind of places. They add in both on-hill and base developments that take the next steps and begin up-charging for it. Breck is getting up there now IMO, with Keystone still a bit behind for up-scaling. Heavenly still has some more work, but over the next decade will move in that direction significantly IMO.

Speculation central with no rhyme or reason:
The only way I could see VR getting into Tamarack is via East-West resorts (owns A-Basin, but with very close ties to VR) or another Real estate operator. Maybe find a way to split the costs and risk while getting some potentially lucrative (in the future) development rights and putting the VR 'brand' on the operations/service to boost visit #'s short term. A long shot at best. I'd guess Starwood would look as well except Mammoth is giving them a sour taste of the industry already. Talisker could, but I think bit off more than they thought with the Canyons (and overpaid). A new western 'premier destination' for Booth Creek's eastern skiers to affiliate with/to (besides grand targhee)? Boyne already has it's remote western affiliation area for it's mid-west & east skiers - Big Sky. Perhaps a Boise RE developer? They would know the potential drive up market and how to entice skiers the extra distance far better than any of the big ski industry players mentioned so far.

3 HSQ, 2 fixed Q, 2 surface lifts... How many visits at what avg price will it take to keep that going... Not to mention that you need outsized patrol costs due to the broad ski terrain for that few visitors & lifts (or do you trim terrain down temporarily too in order to keep costs down, etc...). As always, a lot of possible outcomes at this juncture. But only 27K visitors by end of Jan is tiny. I would have thought they'd be approaching 100K+ visits per year by now (maybe that was the plan and they are way off the plan, obviously).
 
EMSC":2wit7pvs said:
only 27K visitors by end of Jan is tiny. I would have thought they'd be approaching 100K+ visits per year by now (maybe that was the plan and they are way off the plan, obviously).
A dead economy and the drive-up season-pass types going to less expensive, closer-in, and more interesting Bogus and Brundage are probably the coffin nails on that place.

I've never skied there, but it looks like a hill where groomer lovers could rack up vert with all those HSQs. And with nice sidecountry/sledneck access and upscale accomms, I guess that could cover a lot of different people... they just need to wait for another bull market.
8-[
 
Good story today on the Bloomberg.com website about how the financing at Tamarack and Yellowstone Club and some other high-end real estate developments were put together by Credit Suisse out of their LA office and the subsequent default on all of these debts. It's amazing to me that at least some of these people are not in prison.
 
berkshireskier":1i3dobki said:
It's amazing to me that at least some of these people are not in prison.

Except that it's not illegal to be stupid. And actually proving exec's didn't follow their fiduciary responsibilities is a very difficult and daunting task at best.
 
Admittedly, it's not illegal to be stupid, but my guess is that there was plenty of fraud involved in many of these loans and you can go to jail for fraud. Obviously, I don't know all the facts of each loan transaction but it may not be hard as you think to prove fraud. I was around in the early 90's during the last real estate debacle and I saw many people end up in prison for bank fraud in New England, including the lawyer that I worked for who got ten years in federal prison for bank fraud.
 
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