Bend, Oregon Gets Its Comeuppance

[Admin]

Seriously, is this really an over-generalization? Are you actually claiming that sandy isn't sprawled out?

Sandy occupies a total footprint of 22.4 square miles including considerable unbuilt land. That's hardly sprawling. By contrast, Brooklyn encompasses 70.6 square miles -- pretty damned sprawling!

Are you claiming that Sandy is not in the mode of a traditional suburb?

I never did. Instead, I specifically refer you to:

It's full of strip malls and subdivisions.

Which is about as sweeping a generalization as I've come across.

Both Marc_C's and Skidog's Sandy homes are spitting distance from here:

and also from here:

All of those photos are shot within Sandy, and the first four are actually smack dab in the center of town. Funny, there's not a strip mall in sight.

:roll:

Let me guess -- in the few times that you've driven through Sandy you never saw those places? I rest my case against armchair quarterbacking from 2,500 miles away.

 

[rfarren]

I'm sorry Marc, but I would way prefer to live in your place in connecticut. That is truly rural beauty. Sandy however, is the epitome of sprawl. It's full of strip malls and subdivisions.

That's Wallingford CT. It's not rural, it's the epitome of suburban CT living. There's a small downtown area, but the majority is strip malls and developments. In fact at the time to get from Rt 15 to my house, I passed no less than 10 subdivisions. And the closest stores were at least an hour's walk, so we had to drive everywhere for everything. Wallingford was considered a suburb of New Haven, Hartford, and even the Fairfield county gold coast, accessible by Metro North from New Haven. IOW, it had/has all the aspects for which you denigrate Sandy.

Never been to Wallingford CT, but the way you had set up the picure, plus the comment about the cows right next door, led me to believe that was rural.

And just to be clear, I'm not defending where I live, just trying to keep down statements borne of ignorance. Nor do I particularly care where you would and would not like to live. You were the one who brought up all this defensive pissing and moaning about Park Slope.

I think this section of the thread started with this comment:

Aesthetically, not entirely bad, even if a bit monotonously repetitive and monochromatic. Hideous from the standpoint of sheer human density. I'm guessing that $/sq ft is pretty breath-taking as well. And how few of those sq ft are in each apartment?

 

[Admin]

Going back I see that you edited some of your earlier posts, which requires additional comment:

Is that what your hot tub looks like in your backyard?

Did I say that it did? Show me, please.

You said midway had a charming Swiss downtown

I defy you to show me where I said that. I absolutely, positively said no such thing.

Compared to a European town of comparable size it is very sprawled out. Are you going to argue otherwise?

Not at all! Unlike you, I do not see "sprawl" as a negative. I see "sprawl" as "lower density," which in my mind is a positive -- and coincidentally the way that you're using it here by shifting your point of reference. Who in the hell ever determined that "sprawl" is negative, anyway?

Don't deny you live in a sprawled out landscape.

Actually, I don't life in a sprawled out landscape at all, much to my dismay. While I live in unincorporated Salt Lake County, I live in a traditional 50 year-old residential neighborhood compacted by topographical necessity between a canyon and an unbuildably steep mountain (which BTW, is a National Forest, the borders of which are 100 yards from my front door). Although if I had the funds and the patience I'd gladly live more rural...or in your (current) terminology, in a more "sprawling" locale.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

This thread sucks now. Please quarantine it.

 

[rfarren]

Sandy is full of this too:

This is a satellite image of Sandy:
http://maps.google.com/maps?client=...863737&spn=0.037092,0.071497&t=h&z=14&iwloc=A

It seems sprawlish to me.

BTW this is considered part of Rome:
http://maps.google.com/maps?client=...oid=A-tVtNk-cS5EJFKVwu5QyA&cbp=12,140.95,,0,5
But that would be a misinterpretation of the city if I showed it to someone and said: "This is what Rome Italy looks like."

 

[Admin]

Sandy is full of this too:

And Brooklyn has strip malls, too. Switzerland even has shopping centers like this:

Look at all of those people taking neighborhood strolls on the freeway below! Those can't be cars -- people in Switzerland don't need those, remember?

Face it, malls and strip centers are ubiquitous now all over the world. Even in your mythical Switzerland. This conversation has transgressed into the absurd.

 

[rfarren]

Going back I see that you edited some of your earlier posts, which requires additional comment:

I defy you to show me where I said that. I absolutely, positively said no such thing.

I apologize, It was Marc C who said that.

About the hot tub: asked if I could go into a hot tub behind my house, I said yes if I installed one, and then you put a picture of an awesome hot spring. Come on man, what was the point of your picture?

I understand that you see sprawl as a positive. That's cool by me. We all have aesthetics that dictate our likes and dislikes. You guys have amazing mountains, hiking, skiing etc... I think thats great. Personally, I not entirely fond sprawl because I believe it's wasteful in energy and in land. I don't really have a problem being around people, but that is not to say that everyone has to think like I do.

In fact out west, there is an abundance of land. You could argue that is not wasteful as there is so much land, and what would that land do without people living on it. I think that is fair enough. One must remember that there are different philosophies of how people should live.

My fear is that as energy becomes expensive, a sprawling city will become unsustainable. Being as so many of the urban areas of our country are sprawled out, this could have serious implications for all of us, even those who live in areas that are not "car places."

 

[Admin]

About the hot tub: asked if I could go into a hot tub behind my house

Oh, fer chrissakes...stop trying to deliberately obfuscate. I asked if you could go into a hot pot behind your house.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/nndc/struts/re ... 06&s=1&d=1

Personally, I not entirely fond sprawl because I believe it's wasteful in energy and in land.

Before the Salt Lake Valley was developed it looked like this:

I'm therefore having a hard time believing that we wasted anything here. And I guess that you'll have to give up skiing, traveling to Rome, etc., because it's wasteful in energy to get there.

 

[rfarren]

Look at all of those people taking neighborhood strolls on the freeway below! Those can't be cars -- people in Switzerland don't need those, remember?

Face it, malls and strip centers are ubiquitous now all over the world. Even in your mythical Switzerland. This conversation has transgressed into the absurd.

I never said there weren't strip malls in Switzerland. There are, I've seen them. They tend to be limited however, to the periphery of the city. As your picture above well demonstrates. You would rarely see them in the center of a community there, which would be quite common in the states.

There may be strip malls in Brooklyn, but I've not seen them, especially where I live ( I live in what is considered, historical Brooklyn.) I suppose maybe in Flatbush. Brooklyn, and NYC in general isn't well laid out for cars, it would be quite frustrating to have to drive here. In fact, I think car usage (for city residents, all boroughs included) here is far less than the national average.

There is no doubt that strip centers are ubiquitous all over the world.

 

[rfarren]

Before the Salt Lake Valley was developed it looked like this:

I'm therefore having a hard time believing that we wasted anything here.

Do you not read the whole post? :

In fact out west, there is an abundance of land. You could argue that is not wasteful as there is so much land, and what would that land do without people living on it. I think that is fair enough. One must remember that there are different philosophies of how people should live.

And I guess that you'll have to give up skiing, traveling to Rome, etc., because it's wasteful in energy to get there.

Certainly, there is a level hypocrisy in that I travel to foreign lands and pursue recreational activities like skiing. Yet, I don't think that compares on the magnitude of communal wastefulness, such as sprawl. I think it could be a serious problem for our country if energy were ever to become expensive as sprawl works well only when energy is cheap. To be forced to drive to do the most basic of activities such as getting groceries, could pose serious issue if gas were ever to reach $5.00.

 

[rfarren]

BTW, I didn't know what you meant by hot pot. I'm sorry, clearly I can't do that!

 

[Admin]

I think it could be a serious problem for our country if energy were ever to become expensive as sprawl works well only when energy is cheap. To be forced to drive to do the most basic of activities such as getting groceries, could pose serious issue if gas were ever to reach $5.00.

According to this study from the University of Tennessee:

http://cpa.utk.edu/DRB/pdffiles/release06-08-06.pdf

the average distance to a grocery store is 3.2 miles. Now, I have no clue what area that study is describing, be it the state of Tennessee, the country as a whole...whatever. But, let's assume for a moment that it's representative. At 25 mpg, that's 0.256 gallons of fuel. If the driver goes by himself. If there are no other errands completed en route to or from the supermarket. That's a whopping $1.28 at $5/gallon which, BTW, is less than your current bus or subway fares in NYC and that's of course assuming that the shopper doesn't take public transportation (which, BTW, is a huge PITA when bringing hope a cart full of groceries, but that's a whole different subject). Compound that with the fact that should energy prices reach $5/gallon for gasoline, rest assured that your mass transit fares in NYC will skyrocket accordingly.

Sorry, but the sky ain't falling. Urban sprawl isn't the death knell of western civilization as we know it. To think otherwise is using a New York-myopic, I-don't-own-a-car point of view.

 

[rfarren]

Sorry, but the sky ain't falling. Urban sprawl isn't the death knell of western civilization as we know it.

I don't disagree with your last statement whatsoever. However, I do think sprawl only works well when energy is cheap.

How do you figure my transit fares go up if gas sky rockets? The subway runs on electricity, that I believe, although I could be wrong, is largely generated at Niagara. I would imagine that more expensive gas would result in higher ridership of mass transit, therefore, offset the operational cost rising. Although, that last statement is complete conjecture! I'm not trying to be snide, I would just like to see how gas has a direct causation on mass transit.

I think the way that I go grocery shopping as pretty different than the way most americans do. For example: I buy my bread fresh at the baker, after a day it tends to go stale. Certain staples require bigger shops than others, but I almost never go to a supermarket. I would conjecture that most new yorkers do go supermarkets,and that differs from my shopping habits as they are based on finding the highest quality, not the greatest ease. I rarely walk more than 5 to 10 blocks for anything.

How far does the average american drive to work? For that matter how many miles does the average american drive a year? I think that is a more pertinent number. Then we could figure out what the true cost of driving become in a high energy world.

 

[rfarren]

Sorry, but the sky ain't falling. Urban sprawl isn't the death knell of western civilization as we know it.

I don't disagree with your last statement whatsoever. However, I do think sprawl only works well when energy is cheap.

How do you figure my transit fares go up if gas sky rockets? The subway runs on electricity, that I believe, although I could be wrong, is largely generated at Niagara. I would imagine that more expensive gas would result in higher ridership of mass transit, therefore, offset the operational cost rising. Although, that last statement is complete conjecture! I'm not trying to be snide, I would just like to see how gas has a direct causation on mass transit.

I think the way that I go grocery shopping as pretty different than the way most americans do. For example: I buy my bread fresh at the baker, after a day it tends to go stale. Certain staples require bigger shops than others, but I almost never go to a supermarket. I would conjecture that most new yorkers do walk to supermarkets. I would be confident saying that very few new yorkers take mass transit to do grocery shopping. I rarely walk more than 5 to 10 blocks for anything.

How far does the average american drive to work? For that matter how many miles does the average american drive a year? I think that is a more pertinent number. Then we could figure out what the true cost of driving become in a high energy world.

 

[Marc_C]

I never said there weren't strip malls in Switzerland. There are, I've seen them. They tend to be limited however, to the periphery of the city.

One can make a strong argument that the two main streets in Zermatt are essentially strip malls, only minus the parking lot. They put that in the neighboring town of Tasch down-valley. But, since they're in Europe, they automatically have charm and are thus just fine, although in essence the same as elsewhere, where they're obviously evil.

 

[Marc_C]

I'm sorry Marc, but I would way prefer to live in your place in connecticut. That is truly rural beauty. Sandy however, is the epitome of sprawl. It's full of strip malls and subdivisions.

That's Wallingford CT. It's not rural, it's the epitome of suburban CT living. There's a small downtown area, but the majority is strip malls and developments. In fact at the time to get from Rt 15 to my house, I passed no less than 10 subdivisions. And the closest stores were at least an hour's walk, so we had to drive everywhere for everything. Wallingford was considered a suburb of New Haven, Hartford, and even the Fairfield county gold coast, accessible by Metro North from New Haven. IOW, it had/has all the aspects for which you denigrate Sandy.

Never been to Wallingford CT, but the way you had set up the picure, plus the comment about the cows right next door, led me to believe that was rural.

It's quasi-rural wannabe, but mostly suburban. About a 10 minute walk from our house brought you to an expensive and fairly exclusive country club. One of the big issues in town when we left was the rapid consumption of the old farm lands being converted to housing and condo developments. One of the things that attracted us to that property was in fact the 3.3 acre footprint in the woodlands. (Some other photos are on my web site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~mchrusch/wlngfrd_house.html

Much of Wallyworld looks like this:

In contrast, here in sprawling Sandy, we're on a "huge" (realtor's word, not mine) 0.47 acre lot. Actually, the majority of homes in the Salt Lake Valley are on 0.25 - 0.33 acre lots.

 

[Admin]

How do you figure my transit fares go up if gas sky rockets? The subway runs on electricity, that I believe, although I could be wrong, is largely generated at Niagara.

That's hardly NYC's sole source of electricity. However, this is Economics 101. If the price of gasoline soars, demand shifts to alternative sources of energy. As demand rises, so do prices.

I would imagine that more expensive gas would result in higher ridership of mass transit, therefore, offset the operational cost rising. Although, that last statement is complete conjecture! I'm not trying to be snide, I would just like to see how gas has a direct causation on mass transit.

Here ya go, from last year's gasoline spike:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0604/p01s09-usgn.html

More than 90 percent of public-transit officials report that their ridership is up over the past three years, according to a survey released this week by the American Public Transportation Association (APTA). And more than 90 percent credited the sky-high gasoline prices.

At the same time, many transit agencies find themselves squeezed by the higher fuel prices and smaller local government subsidies, which are shrinking because of the economic downturn. Almost 70 percent have had to raise fares, and some have even been forced to curtail services to cope with the high energy prices, even as the demand is increasing.

"You've got a time in history where these agencies could be tapping a new market and attracting the suburban people who, heretofore, have been less likely to ride [public transit]," says Stephen Reich, director of the Center for Urban Transportation Research at the University of South Florida in Tampa. "Some agencies are even contracting service because of fuel costs and decreasing government support."

And after just finishing a mass transit rate hike in NYC in 2009, they're already planning for the next one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/nyreg ... f=nyregion

And I'm not even getting into the horrific impact of Obama's cap-and-tax scheme here.

How far does the average american drive to work? For that matter how many miles does the average american drive a year? I think that is a more pertinent number. Then we could figure out what the true cost of driving become in a high energy world.

You're the one who brought up groceries, not me:

To be forced to drive to do the most basic of activities such as getting groceries, could pose serious issue if gas were ever to reach $5.00.

 

[Patrick]

Oh boy, walk out for a while and there is a bunch of replies. I started replying to this a few hours ago...

Midway gets negatively compared to an urban area.

I simply told you my preference after you commenting negatively on that Brownstone.

Midway gets negatively compared to a mythical place somewhere in Switzerland.

Geez, you sounds like Dan Quayle after the got slamed by Bentsen at that VP debate. You're the one that made the comparison between the Midday and Switzerland.

Midway gets negatively compared to the suburbs.

I didn't. Suburbs are generally a waste of land and resources.

High density living is preferable.
Suburban sprawl is bad and horrible.

See my point above.

Suburban living is high density.

Never said anything close to that. If the whole planet would prefer that mode of living, we would run out of space.

Urban living is high density, but the good kind.

Less waste in space and resources.

I guess Midway is hell on earth.

Never said that, I just mentioned I prefered way more the #1 option. Lucky Luke would probably choose Midday type density/setting - I prefer Urban-central cities setting.

Somehow you and Patrick are experts on Midway from 2500 miles away and based on a single long distance aerial view and a couple of Google street images, yet whine and complain when the same is done for NYC and Park Slop.

Okay, now how many years did you spend learning and reading about Urban issues, Aerial photographic, etc? Pretty easy to see from that view that the land use in similar to many rural communities in North America. It's not rocket science.

It's also interesting that when I made (my admittedly trollish) comment,

Well, you know what we were getting yourself into, right?

Zermatt has charm. Paris is utterly devoid of charm.

Both have their own charm. Agree that it's in the eye of the beholder. Some people like Strip malls (not saying you do), some don't.

I didn't think it was so easy for a thick-skinned New Yorker to get their panties wadded into such a defensive knot.

I think your arguments about the Main Chute steepness were more valid. :roll:

Okay...leaving for the Bluesfest. Neko Case and Ani DiFranco tonight. Not interested by the main stage show by Joe Cocker.

 

[Admin]

Not interested by the main stage show by Joe Cocker.

Hey, hey...we agree on something! :wink:

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

 

[rfarren]

I never said there weren't strip malls in Switzerland. There are, I've seen them. They tend to be limited however, to the periphery of the city.

One can make a strong argument that the two main streets in Zermatt are essentially strip malls, only minus the parking lot. They put that in the neighboring town of Tasch down-valley. But, since they're in Europe, they automatically have charm and are thus just fine, although in essence the same as elsewhere, where they're obviously evil.

There is a school of architects who very much agree with what you are saying: i.e. that main street and strip malls are one and the same.

To me charm has more to do with age and architectural quality. I think anytime you put a parking lot in front of a building you lose some "charm" points. But that's just me.

And after just finishing a mass transit rate hike in NYC in 2009, they're already planning for the next one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/nyreg ... f=nyregion

And I'm not even getting into the horrific impact of Obama's cap-and-tax scheme here.

How far does the average american drive to work? For that matter how many miles does the average american drive a year? I think that is a more pertinent number. Then we could figure out what the true cost of driving become in a high energy world.

What I got from the times article was that the real problem was that they spent money they never had building a new line and getting new trains. The debt seems to be MTA's biggest budget issue, not fuel cost. Even if mass transit is affected I do think that high energy cost will disproportionately affect people dependent on their cars.

So, I looked up the average american drives about 1000 miles per month, or about 33 miles per day. That's a lot... but not unreasonable I suppose.