Deer Valley, UT 3/28/2013

[Admin]

Day 57: Everything from bulletproof to sticky, with some really sweet snow in between.

It's warm in Utah. Really warm. Like nearly 60 degrees warm in Park City right now as I type this. Ski Utah had some meetings scheduled at Deer Valley today, mostly on-snow but with a lunch meeting indoors, so I got to ski Deer Valley today for the first time in several years since my day there with Crocker.

After a continental buffet breakfast we hit the lifts shortly after 9 a.m. I spent my morning skiing with Evan, the wizard behind the curtain at www.wasatchsnowforecast.com and the Utah forecaster Joel Gratz has recruited for www.OpenSnow.com. While others went on an Instagram scavenger hunt, we were on a hunt of our own for soft snow. As we rode the lifts we could hear the scraping of hard surfaces with any northerly component, quickly convincing us that we didn't want to ski that stuff. We instead worked our way over to the southeasterly aspects of Empire and Lady Morgan, which had already softened to an absolutely delightful spring corn consistency. Finding the right snow instead of the other stuff was like the difference between night and day -- this snow was perfect.

We ultimately had to make those firm turns after all, however, on the north-facing Little Reb racecourse. Former World Cupper Heidi Voelker was working the start shack, and she claimed that the course was "not hard, rather sugary actually." Rossi Super 7s mounted with Dynafits weren't the tools of choice to begin with, and I was washing out so badly on my turns that I was happy just to not miss a gate. Apparently Heidi has a different definition of "firm" than I do -- no surprise, really, given her career history -- and my run was so bad that I didn't even bother to find out my time. I just knew that I was a country mile out of contention for anything. Tommy, one of our meeting participants, actually came to within 0.6 seconds of Voelker's time -- I was impressed! =D> I knew something was up when he showed up for breakfast in a speed suit. :lol:

A large group congregated at the bottom of the race course and we all headed over to Northside for some turns on snow that was still dry but loosening up beautifully. I was chasing after (and never catching) Ski Utah President Nathan Rafferty, Joe Johnson of Alta and his brother Mark, the Salt Lake CVB's Shawn Stinson, Josh Madsen of Brian Head, and many others. Before lunch I caught up with Deer Valley's Emily Summers and Snowbasin's Jason Dyer, someone who I never thought I'd see with these on his feet:

And ditto for Jared Winkler of Brighton. It is, however, Deer Valley, and while snowboarding is prohibited, snowboarders are always welcome. :wink:

As a side note, Deer Valley was mobbed today. Combine beautiful spring weather with spring break, and I guess it makes sense. There were some very unpredictable moving slalom gates on the trails today, and most lifts had a 2-3 minute wait, which Nathan said is about as busy as the place gets.

I skied to lunch with Alta Lodge's Joni Dykstra and the folks from the Ogden CVB. After lunch I joined Joe Johnson, Mark Johnson and Canyons Resort's Caitlin Martz for a schlep out to the Daley Chutes. We bypassed #1-3 in hopes of skiing #4, but arrived to find it closed, as was #5 and 6. We therefore dropped into #7 instead, which is one of the more benign routes out there.

The snow was surprisingly dry and chalky in the crux of the chute proper, but by the time we got back onto the groomer we were back into the white glue. Caitlin went off to check in with her father working the Rossignol yurt, the boys headed toward Mayflower and I returned to my truck around 3 p.m. to head home. It was a beautiful day to see and ski with everyone today.

 

[Tony Crocker]

skiing #4, but arrived to find it closed, as was #5 and 6.

Closed for icy conditions or closed for losing coverage?

 

[Bobby Danger]

thank god that lift ticket was a gift !!!

 

[Admin]

skiing #4, but arrived to find it closed, as was #5 and 6.

Closed for icy conditions or closed for losing coverage?

Closed for what reason we couldn't decipher. It certainly looked skiable to us from below and it definitely wasn't due to a hard surface, but perhaps their patrol has higher standard regarding what's skiable. The choke is very tight, and it's definitely the steepest line out there.

 

[Marc_C]

Closed for what reason we couldn't decipher. It certainly looked skiable to us from below and it definitely wasn't due to a hard surface, but perhaps their patrol has higher standard regarding what's skiable. The choke is very tight, and it's definitely the steepest line out there.

Doesn't one of them have mandatory air or am I misremembering something I read?

 

[Admin]

Closed for what reason we couldn't decipher. It certainly looked skiable to us from below and it definitely wasn't due to a hard surface, but perhaps their patrol has higher standard regarding what's skiable. The choke is very tight, and it's definitely the steepest line out there.

Doesn't one of them have mandatory air or am I misremembering something I read?

Not that I observed, unless someone is taking a line between the chutes that's not defined.

 

[TRam]

I've been very disappointed with the 2 days I've skied Deer Vally, and from what I've observed has received far less snow then PCMR and The Canyons. I have converted a few Deer Valley aficionados over to PCMR fans wondering what they saw over there for so long. In fact I would venture to say that anyone with half a brain would rank Deer Valley's layout and terrain 3 out of 3 in the Wasatch Back.

 

[Tony Crocker]

what I've observed has received far less snow then PCMR and The Canyons....anyone with half a brain would rank Deer Valley's layout and terrain 3 out of 3 in the Wasatch Back.

None of these 3 areas have great layouts/terrain, especially compared to certain other Wasatch areas. :stir: In terms of both snow and terrain, I think Jupiter elevates PCMR a notch over the other two. In terms of snow conditions The Canyons is definitely worst. Snowfall vs. Deer Valley is probably similar overall (all 3 areas have massive variation within their boundaries) but the Canyons primary exposure is east while Deer Valley's is north. The Canyons rarely reports all trails open because the terrain on the south sides of those ridges does not maintain coverage very well.

 

[Evren]

I would venture to say that anyone with half a brain would rank Deer Valley's layout and terrain 3 out of 3 in the Wasatch Back.

What the heck, I'll bite: a half-brain is what it would take to rank DV 3rd in Park City. Ba-dum-tss!

Jupiter is the flag-bearer for PCMR terrain, right? You need to take 4 lifts to get up there. And it's still crowded after any kind of fresh snow. And before you say Empire at DV, you *can* drive right to the base of Empire Express. Haven't actually tried this but -- drop off your skis, then use Montage for their comp valet parking. Otherwise it's either 2 or 3 lifts.

The hike to Jupiter Peak has the least VSHU (vertical/steps-hiked-up: I just made that up) that I can think of.

A lift like McConkey's is 2/3 run-out, 1/3 actual "lifting". And that is not exceptional for PCMR.

PS I just found out "half-brain" is possibly used to refer to the female of the species. I regret the unintended misogyny.

 

[Marc_C]

PS I just found out "half-brain" is possibly used to refer to the female of the species. I regret the unintended misogyny.

I refer to my tele friends as half-brain. You know - half a binding, half a brain. Now that they have big, beefy, stiff boots and releasable toe pieces that can take a beating, if they figure out how to lock down that heel, they just might have something there.

 

[Admin]

PS I just found out "half-brain" is possibly used to refer to the female of the species. I regret the unintended misogyny.

I refer to my tele friends as half-brain. You know - half a binding, half a brain. Now that they have big, beefy, stiff boots and releasable toe pieces that can take a beating, if they figure out how to lock down that heel, they just might have something there.

But they get their bindings at half price because they don't have to buy heel pieces, right?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk 2

 

[Marc_C]

I would venture to say that anyone with half a brain would rank Deer Valley's layout and terrain 3 out of 3 in the Wasatch Back.

What the heck, I'll bite: a half-brain is what it would take to rank DV 3rd in Park City. Ba-dum-tss!

Jupiter is the flag-bearer for PCMR terrain, right? You need to take 4 lifts to get up there. And it's still crowded after any kind of fresh snow. And before you say Empire at DV, you *can* drive right to the base of Empire Express. Haven't actually tried this but -- drop off your skis, then use Montage for their comp valet parking. Otherwise it's either 2 or 3 lifts.

The hike to Jupiter Peak has the least VSHU (vertical/steps-hiked-up: I just made that up) that I can think of.

A lift like McConkey's is 2/3 run-out, 1/3 actual "lifting". And that is not exceptional for PCMR.

OK. Getting back to the issue at hand - all 3 of the PC group have the same pluses and minuses, namely that all are essentially interconnected high points on ridge-lines. That can benefit with a variety of aspects to choose from depending on conditions. The detriment is that many of the runs are either along the spine of a ridge or the shots down the sides of said ridges, which results in....long runouts in drainages to get back to the lifts. I don't find any one area either better or worse in this respect.

Regarding snowfall differences: all 3 areas are sufficiently sprawled out along the PC ridgeline that specific locations can vary greatly, even within a single area. As an example up therad, to say that PCMR gets more snow than DV is just ignorant, especially since in one area the separation between the two is a 3/8" polypro rope.

Here's the disclaimer: I spent a week in 1993 skiing PCMR and DV the third week of March, which was pretty strongly into spring conditions that season. At the time, given my skiing ability, I vastly preferred DV. To this day I champion DV as the best food at any ski area in North America. However, in the dozen.5 years I've lived in UT, the following is my ski day tally (all from memory, so exact counts may be off a few days, but as you'll see, it wasn't difficult to remember:

The Canyons*: 25-30, with 3 of those due to visitors wanting to go there. When I moved here, I had an ASC All Mountain pass, thus it made sense to use it at The Canyons.

DV: 6. All due to visitors wanting to sample it plus being able to score free tix for 2 of those days thanks to a friend working at Stein Erikson Lodge.

PCMR: 0 - somehow I've never been motivated to go back. despite their beautiful stands of aspens that we sorely lack in the Cottonwood Canyons. (It's that altitude thing....but then there's that snowfall thing...)


What does this mean from my admittedly myopic and highly biased standpoint?
1. I should probably go back to PCMR since I can now ski much more of it - but with a guide who knows the place. And that access to the B/C slope across the street from Solitude is pretty damned sweet!
2. Actually I really kinda like DV, for a lot of reasons that the typical DV clientele doesn't. But it is just sooooo damned difficult to get any kind of *reasonable* lift ticket discount. Sorry, ~$80 from the SLC ski shops still doesn't do it for me for DV. I'd ski it if it were cheaper. I'd also much rather spend the $72** for a Snowbasin ticket (their food is almost as good, btw - it just lacks the sheer variety of DV, although how they've scaled back the cioppino is a shame and a major black eye - just charge a buck more if that's the issue.)
3. When it is time to do the groomers, DV has no equal.
4. I'd use The Canyons lifts for side country access, but as a destination ski area - meh. I feel completely uninspired by The Canyons. It reminds me an awful lot of Sunday River in Maine (which I despised***). Given its history, this kinda makes sense I guess.

*: the name change from The Canyons to Canyons has got to be one of the most idiotic decisions in the last decade of North American
skiing.

**: SLC ski shop discounted price

***: probably even moreso for the Masshole, particularly Boston, clientele than the terrain, which is ho-hum even by NE standards.

There should be more than enough in this post to piss off some folks. Have at it!

Remember, in Utah, this is how we voice our displeasure with food:

 

[Admin]

1. I should probably go back to PCMR since I can now ski much more of it - but with a guide who knows the place.

Anytime, just say the word. When I'm there I'm usually solo so it will be nice to have the company. Personally speaking, and without entering the pissing match it's my favorite of the three on the Wasatch Back. Not just for Jupiter but for the Motherlode Trees, 10th Mountain Ridge, Black Forest, Pinecone (when you somehow score that narrow window between opening and mank) and much more.

although how they've scaled back the cioppino is a shame and a major black eye - just charge a buck more if that's the issue.

I've been promised that I'm not the first to voice this complaint, and that it will be fixed. We'll see.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk 2

 

[hipslo]

Jupiter is the flag-bearer for PCMR terrain, right? You need to take 4 lifts to get up there.

Two, actually. Crescent to McKonkeys. Easy five minute hike (or traverse through the trees) from top of McKonkey's into PZone/ OZone area of Jupiter on East Face. Then, after that first Jupiter run, ride Pioneer lift. From top of Pioneer, can hike into Puma Bowl (also Jupiter/ East Face) or First Bowl (Jupiter/ West Face) or head over to Jupiter Access, nice tree skiing off of Jupiter Access down to Jupiter Lift. All that before even getting to what you seem to think of as "Jupiter".

Deer Valley? Need to take lots of narrow, crowded beginner trails to and from Flagstaff area to get over to the good stuff.

 

[Evren]

Remember, in Utah, this is how we voice our displeasure with food

I am curious if you've been up to DV recently? Much of the newer terrain (Empire & Lady Morgan) is what would make it attractive from a local's perspective.

Don't quite agree on the "they're all similar" conclusion. Take any lift on Bald Mtn. or the Lady Morgan lift. High-speed, going up right away at a steep angle. At PCMR, I can think of Thayne's Lift as comparable. And many people are fond of it. But it is a slow lift.

Also -- and I've made this point before -- many of PCMR's runs are these wide wide avenues, reminiscent of Eastern-bloc boulevards circa 1960. This is something I associate with Mid-western or Eastern resorts and recoil from. But my parents love them. Plenty of space to eventually make that turn.

Price. You can ski DV for a lot less than $80. More like $57-$67 with a Locals coupon book, which does roll-over. And comes with 1 to 2 buddy passes. Alternatively, be that buddy.

I've never been a fan of the Cioppino at Snowbasin. Even though I like that sort of thing. What I am looking forward to is having the prices be tax-inclusive again, like they used to. When soup comes to $7.02, you are guaranteed to have everyone using credit cards and you'll be paying the 3% merchant fee on that. Give cash a chance.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I generally agree with MarcC's analysis above...

As an example up thread, to say that PCMR gets more snow than DV is just ignorant

Well, Jupiter does get more, and there's a lot of data to back that up. But Jupiter represents maybe 10% of PCMR terrain, and the other 90% is pretty much comparable to DV and Canyons at similar elevations. So the generalization of similar snowfall is in essence correct.

3. When it is time to do the groomers, DV has no equal.

Fall line groomers at DV are better than PCMR or Canyons, yes. But Snowbasin's blow all 3 of them away IMHO.

 

[Evren]

Two, actually.

That's an interesting route I had not done before. Having said that, it's still four. Crescent->McConkey's->Pioneer->Jupiter. There is a zone called "Jupiter" on their map, and you need to get to the top of that. Not some facet of something that's part of the same ridge, or some other interesting terrain.

 

[Marc_C]

I am curious if you've been up to DV recently? Much of the newer terrain (Empire & Lady Morgan) is what would make it attractive from a local's perspective.

Much and recently? No, not since before the Lady Morgan lift was built, but I have skied the Empire terrain. I agree, there's some good stuff there.

Also -- and I've made this point before -- many of PCMR's runs are these wide wide avenues, reminiscent of Eastern-bloc boulevards circa 1960. This is something I associate with Mid-western or Eastern resorts and recoil from. But my parents love them. Plenty of space to eventually make that turn.

Interestingly, the vast majority of those wide Eastern trails were cut with the desire to provide a "more Western style skiing experience" - I'm paraphrasing, but that's essentially what Stratton Mountain said when they created the Sunriser Supertrail.

Price. You can ski DV for a lot less than $80. More like $57-$67 with a Locals coupon book, which does roll-over. And comes with 1 to 2 buddy passes. Alternatively, be that buddy.

This *is* news to me. The last time I checked all they had was the locals 10-pack which was pretty typically restrictive (non-transferable, no buddy passes, no roll-over of unused days).

 

[socal]

I am curious if you've been up to DV recently? Much of the newer terrain (Empire & Lady Morgan) is what would make it attractive from a local's perspective.

Much and recently? No, not since before the Lady Morgan lift was built, but I have skied the Empire terrain. I agree, there's some good stuff there.

Also -- and I've made this point before -- many of PCMR's runs are these wide wide avenues, reminiscent of Eastern-bloc boulevards circa 1960. This is something I associate with Mid-western or Eastern resorts and recoil from. But my parents love them. Plenty of space to eventually make that turn.

Interestingly, the vast majority of those wide Eastern trails were cut with the desire to provide a "more Western style skiing experience" - I'm paraphrasing, but that's essentially what Stratton Mountain said when they created the Sunriser Supertrail.

Price. You can ski DV for a lot less than $80. More like $57-$67 with a Locals coupon book, which does roll-over. And comes with 1 to 2 buddy passes. Alternatively, be that buddy.

This *is* news to me. The last time I checked all they had was the locals 10-pack which was pretty typically restrictive (non-transferable, no buddy passes, no roll-over of unused days).

http://www.deerlocals.com/coupon-books.html

 

[hipslo]

Two, actually.

That's an interesting route I had not done before. Having said that, it's still four. Crescent->McConkey's->Pioneer->Jupiter. There is a zone called "Jupiter" on their map, and you need to get to the top of that. Not some facet of something that's part of the same ridge, or some other interesting terrain.

PZone, OZone, Puma Bowl (on the East face of Jupiter peak) and First Bowl (on the West face of Jupiter peak) are all part of the Jupiter Mountainzone on the pcmr trailmap. If you want to be really technical and consider "Jupiter" only the terrain in the immediate vicinity of the Jupiter lift (though not sure why you'd draw that distinction, as some of the best - and least trafficked - Jupiter terrain is off of the East Face of Jupiter Peak and doesnt require riding the Jupiter lift to access), then its three lifts, not four - Crescent to Pioneer to Jupiter Lift. But it REALLY is possible to ride just two lifts (Crescent and McConkey's) and then hike to the top of Jupiter peak - from which point you can access ALL of Jupiter - though admittedly its quite a hike.