EC Closing Dates 2011

[Tony Crocker]

The bottom line I guess is that people are really, really lazy about late spring skiing. They prefer mediocre terrain 56km away to a better product at Jay or Sugarloaf. Similarly the Oregonians ski the manicured patch on Palmer at Timberline vs. 2,000+ acres and 3,100 vertical at more distant Bachelor. A-Basin, Sunshine, Snowbird, Whistler are all easy drives from a nearby metro area. Crystal is joining the list this season, weekends only like Snowbird. FYI Crystal has a new gondola that can be used as a transport lift if the base area loses cover. Tahoe late season has been severely curtailed at Alpine Meadows (first by Powdr Corp, no surprise) and Squaw is weekends only through Memorial Day and at as least as minimalist as Snowbird. I'm thinking Mammoth is the only viable late season resort where the customers have to stay overnight vs. daytrip.

 

[Patrick]

The bottom line I guess is that people are really, really lazy about late spring skiing. They prefer mediocre terrain 56km away to a better product at Jay or Sugarloaf.

It is, what it is. I wouldn't go as far as calling it mediocre. I'm not here to discuss people preferences, but the fact that one is 30 minutes away versus three to seven times more travel. The product difference is similar to what it is during the season. I've most of the time chosen the farthest option, but that is me.

BTW: Jay was only had Jet trail open last weekend. If everyone would follow your logic, people would only go to Sugarloaf (my Spring time preference) in the Spring or fly West. Not very viable for the Jay, Killington and Sugarbush..let alone MSS of this world.

56km versus 150 km for Jay and 300km for Sugarloaf.

 

[Marc_C]

The bottom line I guess is that people are really, really lazy about late spring skiing. They prefer mediocre terrain 56km away to a better product at Jay or Sugarloaf. Similarly the Oregonians ski the manicured patch on Palmer at Timberline vs. 2,000+ acres and 3,100 vertical at more distant Bachelor. A-Basin, Sunshine, Snowbird, Whistler are all easy drives from a nearby metro area. Crystal is joining the list this season, weekends only like Snowbird.

Tony, it seems we go through this every season with you, where you basically refuse to acknowledge that the decision to operate is minimally influenced by the amount of coverage and snow depths and has every thing to do with business levels. Here in the Wasatch, interest in skiing *plummets* after March, even among a surprising amount of the hard core and passholders. There are huge numbers here who simply do not like spring conditions.

 

[Tony Crocker]

We do not disagree at all. A lot of people have no interest. A lesser number of people have lukewarm interest and will thus do a late season ski day only if it's very convenient. Only a small minority are enthusiastic. So you need a big population base for that small minority to produce viable business levels. And short distance from that population base is important to attract some of the "lukewarm interest" people.

 

[Patrick]

Back on the mediocre theme (according to my liking). The mediocre skiing is in November skiing versus May at MSS (or elsewhere most of the time).

I might have to go to MTL this weekend (and my Edelweiss pass (MSSI) is good in pre and post season). I might detour on my way...or not. Like I did last November.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The mediocre skiing is in November skiing versus May

=D> Absolutely. Easily the dumbest preference of the general skiing public.

 

[Patrick]

The mediocre skiing is in November skiing versus May

=D> Absolutely. Easily the dumbest preference of the general skiing public.

I wouldn't go that far. My mother when she still skied didn't like skiing spring snow (corn and inconsistent snow), she preferred hard surfaces. She isn't alone as I've heard this comment mentioned a few times on some ski forums and/or by some good skiers.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I understand why some people are snobs about wanting to ski midwinter conditions vs. spring snow. I do not understand why November WROD's are more popular than spring though.

 

[riverc0il]

I understand why some people are snobs about wanting to ski midwinter conditions vs. spring snow. I do not understand why November WROD's are more popular than spring though.

Because the variability of spring conditions, especially when bumps form, makes skiing very difficult for those of less than at least advanced if not expert ability (of which the vast majority of skiers are not). Most of the casual skiers I know hate spring conditions. The other factor not being considered yet is the amount of those expert skiers that turn away from the lifts and towards earned turn during the spring, especially here in New England where Mount Wash can see 1000 skiers a day while less than a hundred line up for the lifts depending on time of the month, weather, and how many other areas are open.

On issue not addressed is having MORE ski areas open late could make it not profitable at all areas. I noticed this at Jay. Had Killington still been open, Jay would have lost their shirt on the second to last weekend. The lack of demand can not be under estimated for whatever reason.

 

[Admin]

One issue not addressed is having MORE ski areas open late could make it not profitable at all areas.

We've actually brought that up many times on the Western side in explaining why Alta closes every year in late April with 6 weeks of wall-to-wall coverage still left and Snowbird still spinning right next door.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

 

[Patrick]

I understand why some people are snobs about wanting to ski midwinter conditions vs. spring snow. I do not understand why November WROD's are more popular than spring though.

Because the variability of spring conditions, especially when bumps form, makes skiing very difficult for those of less than at least advanced if not expert ability (of which the vast majority of skiers are not). Most of the casual skiers I know hate spring conditions. The other factor not being considered yet is the amount of those expert skiers that turn away from the lifts and towards earned turn during the spring, especially here in New England where Mount Wash can see 1000 skiers a day while less than a hundred line up for the lifts depending on time of the month, weather, and how many other areas are open.

On issue not addressed is having MORE ski areas open late could make it not profitable at all areas. I noticed this at Jay. Had Killington still been open, Jay would have lost their shirt on the second to last weekend. The lack of demand can not be under estimated for whatever reason.

Riverc0il just nailed it.

Even some good skiers, but don't like the Spring stuff. I know a few Masters' racers (some that are way better than me) hate that type of snow. Mind you some of the skiers like a consistent hard or regular surfaces. My mom was pretty good in her 40s, but she didn't like the Corn. She would leave me at the hill (Tremblant or Gray Rocks), see her family and come pick me up afterward.

I'm sadden to say, that I might skip this weekend for turns. Just too many things on my plate and I'm tired to see them on my "To Do" list. Plus the stars aren't aligned to accomplished more of those tasks in Montreal. :-(

 

[icelanticskier]

let's not forget about, "stoke for the season". most folks can't wait to get on that $hitty WROD, cuz all they've been thinking about since labor day is how stoked they are to ski. then after skiing a few months and the temps start to warm, all most folks wanna do is move onto summer stuff even tho some of the best skiing is has yet to come.

it's more of a seasonal shift for most folks imho. whether it be the novice or hardcore skier.

rog

 

[Tony Crocker]

Mind you some of the skiers like a consistent hard or regular surfaces.

Not out here. That part is definitely an eastern bias.

The other factor not being considered yet is the amount of those expert skiers that turn away from the lifts and towards earned turn during the spring, especially here in New England where Mount Wash can see 1000 skiers a day while less than a hundred line up for the lifts

I observed this contrast when skiing Tucks April 28, 1990 and Killington the next day. But the contrast in ski quality was huge IMHO, so again an eastern phenomenon. The quality of lift service late season at Mammoth, Snowbird, A-Basin is good enough to keep most experts happy. Has anybody ever seen as many as 50 backcountry skiers in one western location, much less 1,000?

let's not forget about, "stoke for the season". most folks can't wait to get on that $hitty WROD, cuz all they've been thinking about since labor day is how stoked they are to ski.

Undoubtedly true, but not for me. I think the WROD is boring after an hour or two. May skiing is nearly always interesting, figuring out when to time the snow right. Plus the available terrain is much more diverse and challenging.

One issue not addressed is having MORE ski areas open late could make it not profitable at all areas.

I've wondered about this in terms of whether Mammoth has had some impact upon the significant cutback in late season skiing at Tahoe. But most people at Tahoe think it's just bean counting. The distance issue remains a large deterrent to Bay Area skiers visiting Mammoth. In a big year like this there is no chance of Tioga Pass opening for Memorial weekend, so the drive from the Bay Area remains 7+ hours as in midwinter.

 

[Harvey]

I think ICE has it exactly right. It's about the jones. When we posted a TR of some guys making low angle turns on the Whiteface Toll Road in October traffic was through the roof. It was our highest traffic day EVER until this week when we posted the Steve Wright interview.

IMO there is no other factor that comes close. In November people care about skiing more than they do in April, because it's been too long. Would like to hear Admin's opinion on that.

 

[Patrick]

That's it from lifts. Mont St-Sauveur has closed today at 4pm. T-Storm and rain forecast for the next few days up there.

Here is what I just wrote on SMW:

IT'S OFFICIAL: TODAY, MAY 22 2011 WAS THE LAST DAY OF LIFT SERVED SKIING IN THE EAST.

I've been reading from the MSS FB page that their closing day in 1997 was June 2nd (it was on a Monday) like in the previous year in 1996. Not June 1 as mentioned previously.

I was at Killington both years and the previous four June 1st (1992-97).

 

[Admin]

In November people care about skiing more than they do in April, because it's been too long. Would like to hear Admin's opinion on that.

Agree completely.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

 

[Patrick]

Mind you some of the skiers like a consistent hard or regular surfaces.

Not out here. That part is definitely an eastern bias.

Consistent is an eastern bias? There was an OR in there. What to read my TR from May 8 (the TR is completed, just waiting after the digital pics).

The other factor not being considered yet is the amount of those expert skiers that turn away from the lifts and towards earned turn during the spring, especially here in New England where Mount Wash can see 1000 skiers a day while less than a hundred line up for the lifts

so again an eastern phenomenon. The quality of lift service late season at Mammoth, Snowbird, A-Basin is good enough to keep most experts happy. Has anybody ever seen as many as 50 backcountry skiers in one western location, much less 1,000?

Really? There are so many places out West where you can ski backcountry in late April compare to the East. Tuckerman has the tradition behind it and is really accessible for a huge amount of population. We talking about 1000 skiers out of now many. That is a tiny fraction of the skiing population. If you count all the people still skiing in the East in late April, Tuck would represent a small fraction of that.

let's not forget about, "stoke for the season". most folks can't wait to get on that $hitty WROD, cuz all they've been thinking about since labor day is how stoked they are to ski.

Undoubtedly true, but not for me. I think the WROD is boring after an hour or two. May skiing is nearly always interesting, figuring out when to time the snow right. Plus the available terrain is much more diverse and challenging.

You live in SoCal and travel all Winter. So people are like me, I like to spread it out. It's like the argument I've said before, if you choose 40 days to ski anytime of the year, you would probably spread them out in 3 months of the year. Some people that are retired or not...you prerfer to spread as long as possible. Skibum4now does it and skied WROD in October.

There is less competition from other outdoor activities in November than in April.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Ice , Harvey and admin are probably right about the reason but that doesn't make it sensible. As Patrick alluded, most people have a limited amount of time and resources to allocate to skiing. Not a criticism of Patrick; he'll ski anywhere, anytime his work/family obligations give him an opening. But allocating any of those resources to a November WROD, then hanging 'em up in early April is STUPID!

Skibum4now does it and skied WROD in October.

She owns property just down the road from Loveland/A-Basin. And she'll be at Mammoth for Memorial weekend, and probably July 4th too.

There is less competition from other outdoor activities in November than in April.

In Mammoth's case that's another argument in favor of late season. In November the skiing had better be good because it's probably too cold/dark to do much else up there afterward. In May/June not only is the skiing usually better, there are more recreation options in the afternoons after you're done skiing.

Really? There are so many places out West where you can ski backcountry in late April compare to the East.

I have little doubt Riverc0il is correct that the proportion of skiers who are earning turns vs. lift service in late spring is far higher East vs. West.

 

[Patrick]

Ice , Harvey and admin are probably right about the reason but that doesn't make it sensible. As Patrick alluded, most people have a limited amount of time and resources to allocate to skiing. Not a criticism of Patrick; he'll ski anywhere, anytime his work/family obligations give him an opening. But allocating any of those resources to a November WROD, then hanging 'em up in early April is STUPID!

Again, personal choice. For the record I always called it stupid, but reading other ski forums and looking at traffic at these sites, you know that most average skiers thinks the other way. As I mentioned in the other outdoor activities (remember this isn't California), people are getting on their bikes, in their kayaks, etc. Not big in November for those activities.

Skibum4now does it and skied WROD in October.

She owns property just down the road from Loveland/A-Basin. And she'll be at Mammoth for Memorial weekend, and probably July 4th too..

Yes, but she'll still skis the WROD in October no matter what.

Really? There are so many places out West where you can ski backcountry in late April compare to the East.

I have little doubt Riverc0il is correct that the proportion of skiers who are earning turns vs. lift service in late spring is far higher East vs. West.

Not so sure about that. I've seen want more reports from the backcountry out west in the Spring than in the East. 98% of the ones from the East are on Mount Washington. You don't have that amount of concentration in the West, there are so many options.

Back on topic: Here is a TR from ZSki with a bunch of picture. The word was that there was 75 skiers maximum during the day and the chair brokedown from 3 hours (10:30 to 1:30). Thunderstorm in the forecast for tomorrow...it's the opposite with New England where it's looks like it's going to be the day to be out.

http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php? ... opic=14196

 

[riverc0il]

But allocating any of those resources to a November WROD, then hanging 'em up in early April is STUPID!

Or, they simply have different priorities. While skiing in April, I often wonder why so many folks ski limited terrain WROD when so few folks ski nearly fully open mountains in the spring. Cold vs comfortable, sunny vs snow gun city, crowded vs empty, soft vs boiler plate, etc. We all know the contrast. And as pointed out above, we all know the reasons. Even expert skiers that love skiing and love spring skiing trail off late season.

Even I can admit to the early season Jones. My October days are greater than my May days (though work has something to do with that). People just get after it more early season. And unlike late season, ski areas have to start building a base when Ma Nature allows them to do so. People see snow and feel cold and they start thinking about skiing.

Is all that stupid? No, it is human nature. Many people would argue that skiing in May instead of doing spring things is stupid. I am not one of those people, but there is certainly an argument to be made. Ain't much to do in November around these parts unlike May when all fair weather activities are on the table.