First time Europe. Looking for insight.

[jamesdeluxe]

James and I analyzed GVA vs. ZRH in another thread

Was this something you have a link to? I am unable to find it. It would be interesting to read the merits off both from you guys. At this point they seem like almost a coin-flip based on this thread. I do like the multiple climate zone aspects of GVA as Fraser points out if we're talking picking a gateway and going to the snow.

I could've sworn that it was in this thread about ChrisC's frequent-flyer-award score from exactly three years ago. Worth reading but the specific GVA vs. ZRH discussion isn't there. Maybe Tony can post the link.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Here's a circuit within 90 minutes of GVA for your review. As opposed to the earlier road trips I posted -- populated primarily with ski areas you've probably never heard of -- it puts the emphasis on well-known interconnected resorts in Savoie and Haute-Savoie that feature classic northwestern Alps upsides (potential big dumps coming in from the Atlantic) and downsides (comparatively low-elevation so conditions can be variable at times). As the Where To Ski and Snowboard Worldwide book would say, "an attractive, extensive ski region. We like it a lot, although we'd like it a lot more if it were 500 meters higher!"

In response to this visit, Tony had his aha moment about the Alps, in which he mentioned "I read this stuff and think, fly to Geneva for 2-3 weeks with no reservations and chase the snow. There are so many places within compact driving range, all with good scale and terrain." Of course, what Tony and I consider a "compact driving range" are two very different things. Regardless, compared to the U.S. (and especially the U.S. west), his point is accurate.

Portes du Soleil
One of the world's top ten largest Interconnected resorts in terms of piste length. As we discussed seven years ago in the Pistegate thread, while that isn't the ideal measurement, the PdS is sprawling, varied, and includes a fair amount of travelling between sectors, which can be unique for Americans accustomed to yo-yoing the same lifts repeatedly. I spent an entire week there without doing much if any repeating. Here are my individual reports from 2014 (Tony posted his own from the region several years later): Les Gets, Morzine, Avoriaz, the south-facing Swiss sectors of Champery, Morgins, Champoussin, Mont Chery, Chatel. In addition, there are three ski areas on the PdS pass that aren't connected to the main circuit (Abondance, Chapelle d'Abondance, Roc d'Enfer -- good for avoiding weekend/holiday crowds) along with highly rated Praz de Lys (only a few miles from Les Gets). If I recall correctly, Fraser is a fan of the extensive Grand Massif region, which is likewise a short drive from the Portes du Soleil -- I haven't skied there yet.

Aravis Range
We only spent one day at each of the ski areas in this pleasant region -- Grand Bornand and the big show La Clusaz -- but could've easily doubled that.

Evasion Mont Blanc
We stayed several nights at a surprisingly inexpensive B&B in the otherwise high-falutin village of Megève (built to compete with St. Moritz). With most of the terrain below tree-line, it was excellent for storm skiing and is similar to the Portes du Soleil in expanse.

Espace Diamant
We really enjoyed this circuit, still comparatively under the radar, and without question the big surprise of our February 2016 visit.

Thollon les Mémises
This separate, comparatively small ski area on the south side of Lake Geneva is worth hitting on the way back to GVA for its stunning views.

 

[Tony Crocker]

the specific GVA vs. ZRH discussion isn't there. Maybe Tony can post the link.
Not much more than we have already discussed here.

We spent four nights in Morzine at the end of our last Alps trip in 2019. Morzine is a vibrant resort town with some fine French dining more reasonably priced than some of the other places we've skied. We chose it last minute because we knew bad weather was on the way and there's quite a bit below tree line. Nonetheless the weather still had an impact. We never got to the Swiss side and Saturday's piste congestion was probably the most I've seen in the Alps due to high alpine lifts being closed for avalanche danger.

For a sprawling complex, the Portes du Soleil lift system is not well integrated compared to Trois Vallees, Val d'Isere/Tignes or numerous ski complexes in Austria. Our Morzine hotel was next to a gondola headed west toward Les Gets. But you have to drive or take a bus (Fraser recommended drive) in the other direction to reach lifts into Avoriaz and to ski Chatel or the Swiss side beyond. Both days we went that way we got about halfway into the Chatel sector. I'd think about staying in Chatel next time for easier access to what we didn't get to ski the first time. If you're going there for a week I'd consider switching up the lodging bases for improved ski logistics. I think due to proximity to GVA I'll end up skiing these places in bits and pieces at the start or end of a trip as in 2019.

 

[jnelly]

Yeah, enough on the airports, its definitely something to consider but not worth dissecting into dust....However on a funny note, the decision might have been made for me if I was one to listen to "sighs". I stumbled into an antiques store today to burn a few minutes and happened across this somehow. Guess I have to go to St. Moritz now or risk upsetting the energy gods.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

We chose it last minute because we knew bad weather was on the way and there's quite a bit below tree line. Nonetheless the weather still had an impact. We never got to the Swiss side and Saturday's piste congestion was probably the most I've seen in the Alps due to high alpine lifts being closed for avalanche danger. (...) For a sprawling complex, the Portes du Soleil lift system is not well integrated compared to Trois Vallees, Val d'Isere/Tignes or numerous ski complexes in Austria. (...) I'd think about staying in Chatel next time for easier access to what we didn't get to ski the first time. If you're going there for a week I'd consider switching up the lodging bases for improved ski logistics.

Tony and I are Exhibit A for Fraser's earlier comment about how first impressions at a ski resort are strongly affected by purely anecdotal occurrences:
Rightly or wrongly, the quality of the snow (never mind the state of the weather) can make or break your holiday, particularly if it is your first time in a resort. I quote this as I often talk to people who will never go back to a particular resort simply because it wasn't in tip top shape when they were there or, conversely, rave about a different resort with a vastly inferior snow-record, that they swear blind is THE place to go, simply because it happened to great the week they booked.

Based on his experience with an unfortunate weather event, Tony's main takeaway from the PdS was that its lift system isn't well integrated because all the upper alpine lifts were closed due to avy danger -- something that I suspect would hamper even the best-designed ski areas. I, on the other hand, got lucky with a superb weather week for sampling the entire circuit sector-by-sector with virtually no low-elevation conditions issues. My impression was that for a mostly linear resort (similar to a golf course with lots of yardage from the green to the next tee), the lifts moved you efficiently from place to place and due to being it being a late January off-peak period, I didn't run into one lift queue the entire time or encounter any trail congestion. Of course, following Fraser's rule of thumb, I had very positive things to say about the resort.

It's difficult to square two completely different experiences like that other than sh*t happens, which was borne out by a return visit two years later, when I stayed at Châtel on the other end of the circuit and my Alps luck finally ran out -- a hardscrabble arrival day followed by a gullywashing rain event that pasted all but the highest mountains in the western Alps. If that had been my first and only experience there, I would've said "no thanks, not worth going back."

Thankfully, the rest of the week recovered nicely, as you can see in the Megève, Grand Bornand, and Espace Diamant reports noted above.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Guess I have to go to St. Moritz now or risk upsetting the energy gods.

The St. Moritz/Graubünden road trip would be a great introduction to the Alps. I just checked and they're continuing to offer the stay/ski deal where you get daily lift tix for 45CHF ($49) through any participating lodging in town. Tony can advise you on the high-end hotels and I'm happy to tell you about the budget-conscious joints.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Based on his experience with an unfortunate weather event, Tony's main takeaway from the PdS was that its lift system isn't well integrated because all the upper alpine lifts were closed due to avy danger -- something that I suspect would hamper even the best-designed ski areas.

That weather event was the reason we chose PdS for the end of that trip, and yes that's the reason we didn't get to the Swiss side. But needing a bus to cross the largest ski town Morzine within the complex, no that's not good logistics at all. And Fraser said that bus takes you to a base requiring three long lifts through beginner terrain to get into the main part of Avoriaz. If you want to get into the best ski terrain efficiently he recommends that you drive to Prodains or Ardent.

Overall those days were consistent with our expectations knowing about the weather. And I would tell first time visitors to base in Morzine because it's a great resort town. But we'll probably switch it up next time to get a better shot at what we missed the first time. If you have a car and are staying in Morzine, driving to Ardent would allow you to explore most of the north and east sectors of PdS.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

needing a bus to cross the largest ski town Morzine within the complex, no that's not good logistics at all. (...) I would tell first time visitors to base in Morzine because it's a great resort town. But we'll probably switch it up next time to get a better shot at what we missed the first time.

Agreed about the Morzine transfer issue and then having to take four lifts to get to Avoriaz village, but c'mon: first-world problems -- it sure beats walking. Ideally, one would spend half of a week based in Morzine or Les Gets for access to those sectors, Mont Chéry, and Roc d'Enfer (a 12-mile-long separate circuit at St. Jean d'Aulps), and the other half of the week based in Châtel.

If you want to get into the best ski terrain efficiently, he recommends that you drive to Prodains or Ardent.

I didn't mention it in the report, but my American host on Day 3 did exactly that -- drove us to the Ardent lift that provides easy access to the top-shelf sectors of the PdS circuit: Châtel, Avoriaz, along with Les Crosets and Champéry on the Swiss side. Based on the amount of varied terrain we hit, the sensation of travelling across long distances, and the excellent conditions, it was one of the better ski days of my life and I wish I'd had taken more photos. Oh well, for posterity here's a short clip of the soft Avoriaz wind sift we were skiing.

 

[ChrisC]

I liked James' reports from the Val d'Anniviers region.

Despite the resorts not being integrated, it looks like an impressive ski domain - although some suggest the valley is slow to accumulate snow.

St. Luc/Chandolin
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12351&p=77271&hilit=zinal#p77271

Grimentz/Zinal
https://www.powderhounds.com/Europe/Swi ... ortRatings

 

[Tony Crocker]

2021-22 vacation populations by nationality based upon holidays:

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I liked James' reports from the Val d'Anniviers region.

That was going to be the first GVA circuit I posted for this thread; however, I felt that recommending additional ski areas the OP had never heard of would be overkill. To clarify, ChrisC is referring to my March 2017 visit to Valais, which rates as one of Switzerland's top skiing cantons along with previously mentioned Graubünden. The Val d'Anniviers/Anniviers Valley (pronounced ah NEE vee ay) is a "hiding in plain sight" insider tip that would get far more attention if the region weren't bookended by the world-renowned 4 Vallées (Verbier) on its western edge along with Zermatt, Saas-Fee, and Crans-Montana on its eastern edge.

Despite sub-optimal weather during a decent portion of my week there (you'll see that I subbed in a few translated reports from a German blogger featuring more representative pix), Valais lived up to expectations and lends itself to a varied ten-day visit within two hours of Geneva airport.

Central Valais
After landing in Geneva mid-morning, I drove east along the northern edge of stunning Lake Geneva, past Montreux, and into the Rhône River Valley, which is lined with vineyards on its northern and southern slopes. Within half an hour of arriving in the mountain village of Nax, the blue skies were invaded by fog and flat light, which was going to be a recurring theme on this trip:
-- Arrival day: Nax turned out to be an enjoyable local's mountain with nice views of the Rhône valley.
-- Day 2: I drove to the completely under-the-radar Val d'Hérens to hit its two larger ski areas Evolène and Arolla.
-- Days 3 and 4 were storm excursions at Anzère and Vercorin with noteworthy tree skiing at the latter.
-- Days 5 and 6 were flat-light outings at well-regarded Grimentz and Zinal.
-- Following four overcast days, I was finally rewarded on Day 7 with bluebird skies at incredible St. Luc/Chandolin.

 

[jnelly]

Hey James, actually thanks FOR adding this. I've been meaning to post to you about this very thing....unknown (largely) places near GVA that would be akin to the places you listed for ZHR that could be nice diversions away from industrial and good bail outs on bad vision days. I've been leaning a bit toward GVA solely based the sentiments everyone seems to have about Aosta/Monterosa being a great mix. Also when I began this journey of research, Sainte Foy was probably the first place I stamped on a map and said, "I wanna go there!" ...which ultimately opened the pandora box seeking 'another layer' if you will. So, definitely not overkill...I love it.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I've been leaning a bit toward GVA solely based the sentiments everyone seems to have about Aosta/Monterosa being a great mix.

These kind of forum discussions often turn into people campaigning for their specific suggestions, similar to what Fraser mentioned earlier ("I WENT THERE; IT'S THE GREATEST AND YOU'LL LOVE IT TOO, GUARANTEED!!"). I've never been to Aosta/Monte Rosa so I can't comment other than that Tony has recommended the region to me. Unless you commit on lodging, which we're advising against during non-peak periods (with the exception of a justifiably high-demand hotel like the Sandhof in Lech), you'll probably change your mind a few times before the actual trip.

We've sometimes done "Upcoming Season Plans" threads -- a fun exercise to get the juices flowing by identifying target ski regions in September. It's always entertaining to circle back in the "Season Recap" thread and see which destination trips panned out or not for whatever reason. Look at this one from 2018-19, where I only went 1 for 3. The early season Cottonwoods visit went as planned; however, both of my Europe itineraries were re-routed: the Pyrenees trip (through Toulouse) became Steiermark/Salzburgerland (through Salzburg) and Gstaad/Chateau d'Oex/Les Diablerets (through GVA) became Graubünden/St. Moritz (through ZRH).

You never know.

 

[jnelly]

These kind of forum discussions often turn into people campaigning for their specific suggestions

You'll probably change your mind a few times before the actual trip.

Point taken and guilty as charged. However, it is fun to dream it all up in your minds eye though. Conditions and gateway will ultimetely rule the day...and dare I suggest...looming travel restrictions. 8-[

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Paznaun Valley/Ischgl, AT
Here's a circuit dating back to late January 2013 (following a seven-year absence from skiing across the pond) in which I combined a ski trip to a popular region in western Austria with a business visit to Brussels.

Since I was planning to spend all of my ski days based out of a hotel ten minutes from Ischgl, I decided not to rent a car. I flew into Munich, took a train 2.5 hours to Landeck, then hopped on a local bus to my hotel in Galtür. It was nice to be able to relax and enjoy the scenery from the train; however, there was too much schlepping of ski equipment -- from the Munich airport onto the S-Bahn, through the Munich train station and onto the train, then transferring to the regional bus in Landeck. In retrospect, it would've been easier, faster, and about the same price to rent a car, even if I didn't use it much during the week

Here's a summary article I wrote for NY Ski Magazine, which includes a helpful :lol: youtube link that provides context for the Ischgl experience that many people associate with the village.

These are the individual trip reports with additional pix and discussion:
-- Galtür
-- Ischgl
-- Ischgl + Samnaun
-- Kappl + Ischgl
-- See

Here's a map to show how the valley is laid out: bookended by local's area "See" at the easternmost point and Galtür 15 miles away directly to the west. Interesting to note that there was a big effort in the mid to late 2010s to lift-connect Kappl with St. Anton's Rendl sector via a peak-to-peak tram (similar to Arosa/Lenzerheide); however, it was nixed due to environmental concerns.

 

[Weathertoski]

Ischgl is a remarkable resort, but not to everyone's taste. On paper it is, in many ways, THE perfect resort - a large, high, snow-sure ski area served by the most sophisticated lift system in the world. There are high speed 6 and 8 person chairs wherever you look, and nowhere in Austria can you rack up as many miles or vertical as quickly as you can in Ischgl. Nor does any Austrian resort have as much terrain above 2000m. It is also, on the surface at least, a cute Austrian village and prior to COVID was, arguably, the liveliest resort in the Alps. So what's the problem?

Ischgl is (or was) all about conspicuous consumption. Think mini Vegas in the Alps. The place is absolutely awash with money with new high speed lifts added every season it seems. However, it's also awash with sleeze - of the middle aged, middle class kind! By late afternoon, especially In high season, there are literally hundreds of drunken middle age men (mostly German) staggering around in ski-boots looking for next t*tty bar. How they manage to burn the candle at both ends for an entire week is beyond me, but ski hard, party even harder has long been the unofficial moto.

Now I should caveat the above in that post COVID, things are likely to be very different, which is why i should probably have changed "are" to "were" in some of the above sentences! It is well publicized that Ischgl was at the heart of the European outbreak, and with Austrian style après ski likely to be off-limits for some time to come (maybe forever?), the resort is undergoing a serious marketing rethink.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

post COVID, things are likely to be very different (...) It is well publicized that Ischgl was at the heart of the European outbreak, and with Austrian style après ski likely to be off-limits for some time to come (maybe forever?), the resort is undergoing a serious marketing rethink.

I look forward to any linked articles about the current marketing rethink. Perhaps my chaste "only about the skiing" visit in 2013 was an unintentional look into the future of Ischgl.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Liz and I saw zero of the famed apres-ski in Ischgl. In all 4 Austrian locales in 2017 we were attracted by the family owned hotels that are very self contained. Ski all day, relax in their basement spas and enjoy the half board dinner, rinse and repeat. Only one night in Saalbach did we venture out after dinner.

We also wandered around Kitzbuhel a bit after watching the Hahnenkamm Downhill.

nowhere in Austria can you rack up as many miles or vertical as quickly as you can in Ischgl.

Based upon our 2017 trip I'd vote for the Saalbach complex: 101,900 vertical in 3 days with the max day being 40,500, nearly all very direct piste skiing with minimal inefficiency. Ischgl has an extremely dense core of lifts and skier density around Idalp but also some outlying areas that are more interesting skiing and involve a bit more exploring.

There's no question we had excellent conditions at Saalbach, which one cannot assume at its comparatively low altitude. We had good snow in Ischgl too, but also some pockets of bad visibility.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

An article about Ischgl trying to fix its damaged public reputation. From March, but it's probably still accurate:
https://www.dw.com/en/austrias-ischgl-a ... a-56842089

"The devil arrived with all the booze and intoxication tourism. The system that's been set up is about bringing about a state of disinhibition every day, so that people lose control ― even over their wallets."

 

[jnelly]

Hey all...a follow up to add into this entire conversation of logistics and such which something I havent seen a lot of fodder on... What is everyones sentiments or real-world experience with either taking or renting skis. The preface: I'm in the mini-van category of skis, Pinnacle 88 / Kastle FX84...never met a challenge either couldn't handle yet not too amazing at any 1 thing. (nor would I probably know if they were).. I don't care about what "tune" I have, or if my bindings are forward, centered or back .000001 of an inch.
That said I lean just taking them bc Ill have 50# of crap anyway and it saves clowning around at a rental facility. But I'd love to hear the argument.