Grouse Mt. Backcountry Controversy

Tony Crocker":26rf971t said:
I agree with all of Patrick's comments above. Lots of missing info, hard to draw proper conclusions without it.

Started looking and researching the details.

Editorial/Politicians :brick: on this story.


Here is the blog from North Shore Rescue. This wasn't a rescue, the group didn't require any assistance...(read the comments from the blog)

http://www.northshorerescue.com/blog/20 ... ntain.html

Grouse Mtn - Thrasher Creek Task Jan 2 09

Response from Tim Jones Operational SAR Manager

I appreciate everyone's comments. I will provide a brief summary of what NSR did.

The following response took place over approximately 25 minutes from the time I was called.


* I was contacted by a fellow SAR MGR who volunteers for FASP on Grouse.He at this time became aware of the situation and was coordinating with Grouse Patrol who were asking for our assistance
* He stated that 3 skiers and a snowboarder entered Thrasher Creek via the controlled ski area against the warnings of a Grouse Ski Patroller
* At no time did anyone on the Grouse Patrol or my fellow SAR MGR know what skill level or equipment was carried by these individuals or that they had GPS's and hiked this terrain last summer. We do not have a crystal ball.
* Given the past history of Thrasher Creek ( Father and son incident last year during considerable avi hazard)) there was a concern that this group would not know the gully exit south through the saddle to Mountain Hwy and if they continued east it would put them in very steep cliffy terrain under Fromme Mtn.
* I requested my fellow SAR MGR to have Grouse contact North Vancouver RCMP to advise and generate a file number and I would check with Peter Marshall a local forecaster with CAC as to his assessment of Avi Hazard in Thrasher Creek specifically. Peter who is the former head of Grouse Patrol stated CONSIDERABLE.
* Given the past history of trapped skiers and boarders in Thrasher Creek of which with one exception had missed the exit and had gone due east under Fromme, the CONSIDERABLE Avi rating in real time by Peter, the possibility of our team members having to rescue these people, and a cloud system moving into Grouse, the following very prudent actions took place in close coordination with Grouse Patrol and the RCMP
* I called RCMP Air Services to explain the situation to see if they had their patrol helicopter Air 1 up in the air which they did. I advised them that North Van RCMP had been called and could Air 1 come up on our frequency. PEP was called and our tasking was initiated
* Air 1 then came up on our frequency and advised they contacted North Van RCMP also to close the loop. Air 1 was over SFU
* I advised them of the situation and gave them the Latitude and Longitude and approx elevation to look for this group estimating time distance travelled
* The goal was for Air 1 see if they had turned south through the saddle exit to Mtn Hwy
* AIR 1 quickly ID'd the group which by this time was spilt into 2 groups of two
* AIR 1 confirmed they had turned south and were heading for a Grouse Patroller stationed on a snowmobile on Mountain Hwy. Air 1 gave me Lat/Long which I confirmed on my map.
* Very quickly the first two were intercepted by the Grouse patroller with the other two later on intercepted by Grouse Patrol
* At this point our operational involvement ceased as well as AIR 1's
* My fellow SAR MGR who was on Grouse participated in the debriefing of the 4 individuals with Grouse Staff and the RCMP
* I was informed by both my fellow SAR MGR and Grouse Staff that these individuals all had transceivers but only 1 SHOVEL between them.I do not know if they had probes and no one could confirm that with me

I hope this summary helps to sheds light on the work we do with RCMP Air Services and our primary helicopter operator Talon Helicopters that often the public never know about. There is so many times I have lost count where tasks start exactly like this and turn into full blown rescues. Please understand we take this very seriously and aggressively on the front end for this exact reason.

As for charging people for rescues NSR has a long standing team policy specifically against this for multiple reasons (i.e. inability to pay leads to evasion or a family and friend rescue attempt that goes awry)

Grouse's decision to take the passes away for these individuals was part of their long standing Responsibility Code.I support this decision based on the information I received.

Respectfully,

Tim Jones, Team Leader NSR

Thank you for clarifying what occurred. I was one of the four skiers, and the backcountry community may like to hear more. First of all, though, let me say that I, like all backcountry users, completely appreciate the work and quick response of NSR. I am not at all critical of you! Given what occurred, your response sounds appropriate. The value judgment that Tim Jones closes with though, that Grouse acted appropriately, I cannot disagree with more strongly.

I have skied Grouse (and a lot of other places) for years, and am on their pro team. The first thing to know is that last year I hiked Thrasher Creek and took GPS coordinates of the area. I also studied maps and photographs. Finally, I had a conversation with a senior Grouse management person and told him I wished to ski the backside of the mountain this year. (Who this was will for the time being remain private.) I was given permission, as long as I kept it quiet - no pictures and stories of how to get there on the internet - that sort of thing.

We did not ignore any ski patrol. If any were calling to us we had no idea. We thought we entered the area when no one could see us. There are a lot of beginners at Grouse and having someone follow us was the last thing we wanted.

We had beacons, three shovels between four of us and three sets of probes.

I have a lot of respect for CAC, but our assessment of avalanche danger on site was and remains Moderate.

The Thrasher Creek area is very difficult skiing, and the line we had chosen was a particularly hard pillow line. We skied it with no incident.

At the end, we had intended to hike out the pipeline exit to Mountain Highway, which we did. As far as I am aware, no rescuer came into the area.

What should have been put down as a minor misunderstanding has taken on a life of its own. Hopefully it will give rise to better communication in the future.

By graham haywood, at 10:29 AM

Very informative.

I suggest that the Darwin reference be removed for this thread and added to the Brighton story instead.

Again, to the media and everyone else jumping on the banwagon. :brick:
 
Admin":29t2m3za said:

I'm the first to admit I know only a little about skiing in avy terrain.

But one thing strikes me....if those guys are claiming to be prepared to deal with avalanche prone terrain...why would one of the four skiers not have a beacon? Was that persons life deemed unimportant?

Either beacons are critical and everyone should have one, or they aren't, and no one needs one.

Logically there is no middle ground.

To me they sound like hackers. Not experts in avy terrain.
 
Harvey44":3dozbxiq said:
But one thing strikes me....if those guys are claiming to be prepared to deal with avalanche prone terrain...why would one of the four skiers not have a beacon? Was that persons life deemed unimportant?

Or, more importantly in my selfish way of thinking, is your life so unimportant that you want one less potential rescuer looking for you?

Rule #1: When deciding which beacon to wear, always give the best, easiest-to-use beacon to your partner. :lol:
 
* I was informed by both my fellow SAR MGR and Grouse Staff that these individuals all had transceivers but only 1 SHOVEL between them.I do not know if they had probes and no one could confirm that with me

Team Leader NSR

We had beacons, three shovels between four of us and three sets of probes.

Harvey44":20mu0a4u said:
why would one of the four skiers not have a beacon? Was that persons life deemed unimportant?

Either beacons are critical and everyone should have one, or they aren't, and no one needs one.

Logically there is no middle ground.

To me they sound like hackers. Not experts in avy terrain.

The newspaper information doesn't seem to be accurate. :roll:

Rescue Team Leader and skier both mentioned that ALL had beacons. Can't always believe what is the newspaper, even if it's linked up by FTO.

Check out the North Shore Rescue blog for more accurate info.

http://www.northshorerescue.com/blog/20 ... ntain.html
 
OK here's a dumb question...can someone post a list of what is generally accepted as minimum requirements for a group of four in avyland?
 
Harvey44":1l44z86c said:
OK here's a dumb question...can someone post a list of what is generally accepted as minimum requirements for a group of four in avyland?

Beacon, shovel, probe, partner...and brain. For each.
 
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