Is Mt. Waterman Circling the Drain?

[jamesdeluxe]

Purgatory, Arizona Snowbowl, Sipapu, Pajarito, Hesperus, Nordic Valley, Lee Canyon, Sandia Peak and Williamette Pass. This is an interesting collection because among them only Purgatory can be considered even a Tier 2 ski area by James' definition I suspect.

Five years ago, I did a Tier 1 through 4 classification of northeastern ski areas:

• Tier 1: Stowe, Smugglers Notch, Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, Whiteface, Sugarloaf, Jay
• Tier 1 Runner-Ups: Killington, Tremblant, Le Massif, Mont Sainte Anne, Cannon/Mittersill
• Tier 2: Gore, Stratton, Magic, Mount Snow, Burke, Wildcat, Sunday River, Saddleback, Massif du Sud, Mont Orford, Sutton, Attitash
• Tier 3: Catskills NY
• Tier 4: Poconos PA

I'm curious how westerners would classify a place like Purgatory (the closest I've been is EMSC's recent report). It's certainly not a western Tier 3 but does it qualify as a Tier 2? Looking at the map and ChrisC's comment, it seems like the Germans on Alpinforum would dock it a half point (to a 2.5?) due to their repeated criticism "alles spielt sich am gleichen Hang ab" -- all of the ski terrain is on one face/feels same-y.

I still recommend separating out the helpful 2019 tier discussion to keep it from staying buried.

 

[Tony Crocker]

all of the ski terrain is on one face/feels same-y.

The Germans don't ski at areas at 37 degrees latitude. Purgatory's majority north exposure is definitely a virtue.

I still recommend separating out the helpful 2019 tier discussion to keep it from staying buried.

Yes, I've hunted it down myself a few times. I've separated the discussion, but it's still buried (today on page 3) in the Eastern Section. The new title should make searches easier though.

 

[EMSC]

only Purgatory can be considered even a Tier 2 ski area by James' definition I suspect.

Arizona Snowbowl isn't kinda-tier 2? multiple high speed lifts and decent vert for example with some hike to steeps, etc...

Haven't been but seems like it would be at least Purgatory tier, looking from afar anyway...

 

[Tony Crocker]

Nobody defined tiers for the West. I said its too subjective because terrain/snow conditions/infrastructure mostly go together in the East while not necessarily in the West. There are surely a lot of borderline cases.

Arizona Snowbowl has one high speed lift. Terrain/topography similarities I'd mention (scale, overall pitch, primary west exposure) are Santa Fe and Pebble Creek. The terrain EMSC would like best at Arizona Snowbowl is somewhat shorter/narrower than at the other two places. I know this not so helpful because I'm not sure anyone else here has skied all 3 of these places. I'd guess that Santa Fe most often has the best snow conditions among those three.

Yes Purgatory is heavily intermediate but it has to be at least twice the acreage of these places and not that much flatter overall.

I'd also guess that most people would classify all of these areas as Tier 3 (are there more than 4 tiers in the West?). They would be Tier 2's in the East IMHO. James at least can opine on Santa Fe vs. Tier 2 East.

 

[EMSC]

Arizona Snowbowl has one high speed lift.

I believe they have both the gondola and a high speed 6 pack, for what that is worth.

I can only guess that it is a fairly profitable operation as James Coleman has spent quite a few $$ there with lift and snowmaking upgrades over the past decade. In my view Arizona Snowbowl would seem to be kinda on par (depending on the snow year, since Arizona has wildly varying snowfall) with Purgatory for a 'destination' for the MCP pass holders. Obviously not true destination, but getting to visit cool towns (Durango or Flagstaff) and ski a slightly bigger more improved mtn.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I was confused by this description:

riders have access 2,000 feet of vertical rise in less than 7 minutes on a gondola lift with a combination of 6 person chairs.

That chondola was built after our last visit in 2019, when the only high speed lift was the Grand Canyon Express.

The Purgatory/Arizona Snowbowl discussion is a good example why tier classification in the West is problematic. Durango is remote from major population centers and I'd guess at least half of Purgatory's business is destination. Snowbowl is 2 hours 40 minutes from Phoenix and the few other ski areas in Arizona are far inferior. I have no doubt that Snowbowl is extremely popular when conditions are decent and that the long fight with the Navajos to install snowmaking was well worth the effort. Snowbowl has a bad reputation for weekend crowds, so those lift upgrades made a lot of sense too.

Does all of the above make Snowbowl a Tier 2 ski area? Is Big Bear a Tier 2 ski area by western standards because it has 4 high speed lifts and 800,000 skier visits? Snowbowl is a Baldy-sized ski area (though much less expert-weighted) with snow reliability somewhat in the ballpark with Big Bear. I say somewhat because I doubt Snowbowl has 100% of trails with snowmaking coverage or as much water.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

James at least can opine on Santa Fe vs. Tier 2 East.

It's helpful to keep in mind what I posted below five years ago -- that tier level isn't necessarily a verdict on the quality of the experience. In many cases, it's a YMMV thing based on a given skier's preferences.

Another thing to consider is whether lower tiers are an attraction or a deterrent to a given skier. Over the years, I've made a cottage industry out of skiing third-tier Alps ski areas and some would say that I prefer them.

 

[snowave]

ChrisC recently linked an interview with Mountain Capital Partners Managing Partner James Coleman.

After the South America news, Stuart Winchester asked questions about some of Mountain Capital Partners' North American ski areas: Purgatory, Arizona Snowbowl, Sipapu, Pajarito, Hesperus, Nordic Valley, Lee Canyon, Sandia Peak and Williamette Pass. This is an interesting collection because among them only Purgatory can be considered even a Tier 2 ski area by James' definition I suspect.

Coleman prides himself on sprucing up small community ski areas and believes they are important to the future of skiing.

Sipapu was Coleman's first ski area; he said he got his MBA from University of Texas but his PhD from Sipapu. The process of making improvements and trying to expand from 200 to 1,000 acres was extremely tedious.

For these small areas Coleman is wary of the expense of high speed lifts. Competition from big ski areas has driven up the cost drastically post pandemic. Nonetheless the new high speed chondola at Arizona Snowbowl was the most expensive lift installed in North America for the 2020-21 season.

Hesperus is the 700 vertical local hill for Durango. Its business is highly concentrated over the Christmas holidays. Coleman will not reopen it until they can install snowmaking, which requires bureaucratic negotiations to get water rights and build anything. MCP also owns another small place Elk Ridge near Flagstaff which they are examining the viability of reopening.

At Nordic Valley in Utah, MCP built a new lift to expand the vertical to 1,700 feet, but the old lift broke down so customers needed to be shuttled/towed to the new lift last season. Coleman said he's confident about Nordic's future considering the crowd/traffic pressures elsewhere in Utah. He said location in the Wasatch means good snowfall despite the low altitude. I looked it up and Nordic Valley is REALLY low in Utah context, range 5,300 - 7,000 feet. As for snowfall, OpenSnow says it got 183 inches Dec.-Mar 2024, this during a period when nearby Snowbasin got 333 inches, so I'm a bit skeptical here.

The most interesting discussion was about Sandia Peak. It had been closed for 3 seasons. Coleman is working on reopening it with strong support from the local community in Albuquerque. I've skied Sandia. It's very mellow terrain of 1,600 vertical and not much more than 100 inches season snowfall. Once again snowmaking will be essential to make the place viable, plus the old chair will need to be replaced by a high speed because it's so long.

At this point in the interview about these reclamation projects, I was thinking someone has to ask Coleman about Mt. Waterman. Sure enough Winchester did, and SoCal skiers will not like the response. Coleman knew about Waterman as he did live in SoCal sometime ago. Coleman asked Karl Kapuscinski, who owns Mt. High and in recent years has bought China Peak, Dodge Ridge and Bear Valley, and combined all four areas on the Cali Pass. Kapuscinski's succinct reply was, "No freaking way!" Coleman cited Mt. Waterman's key obstacles being lack of snowmaking, problems with the Angeles Crest Hwy and California bureaucracy more difficult than his already challenging experiences in New Mexico.

Funny response, and he's obviously right (KK). I have a feeling Waterman will be gone for good, soon unfortunately (unless somebody with a bunch of money (and no brains) buys it. Stranger things have happened, I guess.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I have a feeling Waterman will be gone for good, soon unfortunately

I don't recall one single tidbit of good news about Waterman over the years. Given ^^ this likelihood, what will become of it?

 

[snowave]

I don't recall one single tidbit of good news about Waterman over the years. Given ^^ this likelihood, what will become of it?

Probably like many of the other places over the years that close. They (the USFS) will likely remove the lift, and it will become a memory of the past. I really hope I'm wrong though, and they can find someone to buy it and somehow find a way to prosper.