Is Mt. Waterman Circling the Drain?

[jamesdeluxe]

Purgatory, Arizona Snowbowl, Sipapu, Pajarito, Hesperus, Nordic Valley, Lee Canyon, Sandia Peak and Williamette Pass. This is an interesting collection because among them only Purgatory can be considered even a Tier 2 ski area by James' definition I suspect.

Five years ago, I did a Tier 1 through 4 classification of northeastern ski areas:

• Tier 1: Stowe, Smugglers Notch, Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, Whiteface, Sugarloaf, Jay
• Tier 1 Runner-Ups: Killington, Tremblant, Le Massif, Mont Sainte Anne, Cannon/Mittersill
• Tier 2: Gore, Stratton, Magic, Mount Snow, Burke, Wildcat, Sunday River, Saddleback, Massif du Sud, Mont Orford, Sutton, Attitash
• Tier 3: Catskills NY
• Tier 4: Poconos PA

I'm curious how westerners would classify a place like Purgatory (the closest I've been is EMSC's recent report). It's certainly not a western Tier 3 but does it qualify as a Tier 2? Looking at the map and ChrisC's comment, it seems like the Germans on Alpinforum would dock it a half point (to a 2.5?) due to their repeated criticism "alles spielt sich am gleichen Hang ab" -- all of the ski terrain is on one face/feels same-y.

I still recommend separating out the helpful 2019 tier discussion to keep it from staying buried.

 

[Tony Crocker]

all of the ski terrain is on one face/feels same-y.

The Germans don't ski at areas at 37 degrees latitude. Purgatory's majority north exposure is definitely a virtue.

I still recommend separating out the helpful 2019 tier discussion to keep it from staying buried.

Yes, I've hunted it down myself a few times. I've separated the discussion, but it's still buried (today on page 3) in the Eastern Section. The new title should make searches easier though.

 

[EMSC]

only Purgatory can be considered even a Tier 2 ski area by James' definition I suspect.

Arizona Snowbowl isn't kinda-tier 2? multiple high speed lifts and decent vert for example with some hike to steeps, etc...

Haven't been but seems like it would be at least Purgatory tier, looking from afar anyway...

 

[Tony Crocker]

Nobody defined tiers for the West. I said its too subjective because terrain/snow conditions/infrastructure mostly go together in the East while not necessarily in the West. There are surely a lot of borderline cases.

Arizona Snowbowl has one high speed lift. Terrain/topography similarities I'd mention (scale, overall pitch, primary west exposure) are Santa Fe and Pebble Creek. The terrain EMSC would like best at Arizona Snowbowl is somewhat shorter/narrower than at the other two places. I know this not so helpful because I'm not sure anyone else here has skied all 3 of these places. I'd guess that Santa Fe most often has the best snow conditions among those three.

Yes Purgatory is heavily intermediate but it has to be at least twice the acreage of these places and not that much flatter overall.

I'd also guess that most people would classify all of these areas as Tier 3 (are there more than 4 tiers in the West?). They would be Tier 2's in the East IMHO. James at least can opine on Santa Fe vs. Tier 2 East.

 

[EMSC]

Arizona Snowbowl has one high speed lift.

I believe they have both the gondola and a high speed 6 pack, for what that is worth.

I can only guess that it is a fairly profitable operation as James Coleman has spent quite a few $$ there with lift and snowmaking upgrades over the past decade. In my view Arizona Snowbowl would seem to be kinda on par (depending on the snow year, since Arizona has wildly varying snowfall) with Purgatory for a 'destination' for the MCP pass holders. Obviously not true destination, but getting to visit cool towns (Durango or Flagstaff) and ski a slightly bigger more improved mtn.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I was confused by this description:

riders have access 2,000 feet of vertical rise in less than 7 minutes on a gondola lift with a combination of 6 person chairs.

That chondola was built after our last visit in 2019, when the only high speed lift was the Grand Canyon Express.

The Purgatory/Arizona Snowbowl discussion is a good example why tier classification in the West is problematic. Durango is remote from major population centers and I'd guess at least half of Purgatory's business is destination. Snowbowl is 2 hours 40 minutes from Phoenix and the few other ski areas in Arizona are far inferior. I have no doubt that Snowbowl is extremely popular when conditions are decent and that the long fight with the Navajos to install snowmaking was well worth the effort. Snowbowl has a bad reputation for weekend crowds, so those lift upgrades made a lot of sense too.

Does all of the above make Snowbowl a Tier 2 ski area? Is Big Bear a Tier 2 ski area by western standards because it has 4 high speed lifts and 800,000 skier visits? Snowbowl is a Baldy-sized ski area (though much less expert-weighted) with snow reliability somewhat in the ballpark with Big Bear. I say somewhat because I doubt Snowbowl has 100% of trails with snowmaking coverage or as much water.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

James at least can opine on Santa Fe vs. Tier 2 East.

It's helpful to keep in mind what I posted below five years ago -- that tier level isn't necessarily a verdict on the quality of the experience. In many cases, it's a YMMV thing based on a given skier's preferences.

Another thing to consider is whether lower tiers are an attraction or a deterrent to a given skier. Over the years, I've made a cottage industry out of skiing third-tier Alps ski areas and some would say that I prefer them.

 

[snowave]

ChrisC recently linked an interview with Mountain Capital Partners Managing Partner James Coleman.

After the South America news, Stuart Winchester asked questions about some of Mountain Capital Partners' North American ski areas: Purgatory, Arizona Snowbowl, Sipapu, Pajarito, Hesperus, Nordic Valley, Lee Canyon, Sandia Peak and Williamette Pass. This is an interesting collection because among them only Purgatory can be considered even a Tier 2 ski area by James' definition I suspect.

Coleman prides himself on sprucing up small community ski areas and believes they are important to the future of skiing.

Sipapu was Coleman's first ski area; he said he got his MBA from University of Texas but his PhD from Sipapu. The process of making improvements and trying to expand from 200 to 1,000 acres was extremely tedious.

For these small areas Coleman is wary of the expense of high speed lifts. Competition from big ski areas has driven up the cost drastically post pandemic. Nonetheless the new high speed chondola at Arizona Snowbowl was the most expensive lift installed in North America for the 2020-21 season.

Hesperus is the 700 vertical local hill for Durango. Its business is highly concentrated over the Christmas holidays. Coleman will not reopen it until they can install snowmaking, which requires bureaucratic negotiations to get water rights and build anything. MCP also owns another small place Elk Ridge near Flagstaff which they are examining the viability of reopening.

At Nordic Valley in Utah, MCP built a new lift to expand the vertical to 1,700 feet, but the old lift broke down so customers needed to be shuttled/towed to the new lift last season. Coleman said he's confident about Nordic's future considering the crowd/traffic pressures elsewhere in Utah. He said location in the Wasatch means good snowfall despite the low altitude. I looked it up and Nordic Valley is REALLY low in Utah context, range 5,300 - 7,000 feet. As for snowfall, OpenSnow says it got 183 inches Dec.-Mar 2024, this during a period when nearby Snowbasin got 333 inches, so I'm a bit skeptical here.

The most interesting discussion was about Sandia Peak. It had been closed for 3 seasons. Coleman is working on reopening it with strong support from the local community in Albuquerque. I've skied Sandia. It's very mellow terrain of 1,600 vertical and not much more than 100 inches season snowfall. Once again snowmaking will be essential to make the place viable, plus the old chair will need to be replaced by a high speed because it's so long.

At this point in the interview about these reclamation projects, I was thinking someone has to ask Coleman about Mt. Waterman. Sure enough Winchester did, and SoCal skiers will not like the response. Coleman knew about Waterman as he did live in SoCal sometime ago. Coleman asked Karl Kapuscinski, who owns Mt. High and in recent years has bought China Peak, Dodge Ridge and Bear Valley, and combined all four areas on the Cali Pass. Kapuscinski's succinct reply was, "No freaking way!" Coleman cited Mt. Waterman's key obstacles being lack of snowmaking, problems with the Angeles Crest Hwy and California bureaucracy more difficult than his already challenging experiences in New Mexico.

Funny response, and he's obviously right (KK). I have a feeling Waterman will be gone for good, soon unfortunately (unless somebody with a bunch of money (and no brains) buys it. Stranger things have happened, I guess.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I have a feeling Waterman will be gone for good, soon unfortunately

I don't recall one single tidbit of good news about Waterman over the years. Given ^^ this likelihood, what will become of it?

 

[snowave]

I don't recall one single tidbit of good news about Waterman over the years. Given ^^ this likelihood, what will become of it?

Probably like many of the other places over the years that close. They (the USFS) will likely remove the lift, and it will become a memory of the past. I really hope I'm wrong though, and they can find someone to buy it and somehow find a way to prosper.

 

[ChrisC]

I thought this was interesting. A likely wealthy Millenial put together an investment group to purchase Mt. Waterman.

Press Release Link

Planned enhancements by the veterans on the AMP team include a modern snowmaking system, tubing hill with magic carpet, glamping village, curated dining experiences, and exclusive membership opportunities through the Waterman100 program—an extremely limited legacy membership offering private powder days, helipad access, preferred event access and a limited ownership position in the project. This inheritable 'country-club style' membership will include a shared equity pool, and liquidity options for members to sell their memberships at a potentially heightened market rate on exit. For membership inquiries, visit www.waterman100.com​

​

"This is a special place, and most people my age (43) aren't aware this area of LA exists. It's a National Forest, and only an hour from the warming hut to sitting at the Dodger game. Go Blue!" said Joshua Shelton, Co-Founder of AMP. "We can't control the weather, but we can manage how many people gain access to the absolute best conditions our resort will have to offer, and that's an honor we reserve for the Waterman100."​

​

The company plans a phased renovation and revitalization strategy, introducing modern amenities including a large special events venue, updated warming hut and club house buildings, jib/board park, mountain bike park, and other year-round adventure opportunities. The newly upgraded facilities will enhance the guest experience, offering a balance of comfort, adventure, and exclusivity.​

Note: No planned updates of chairlifts. Heli-access?! Private Powder Days?! Ask MRG and other co-ops if memberships appreciate?! LOL



This sounds like a horrible idea, similar to the misinformed Millenials who bought Powder Mountain in 2010s. NYTimes Link

April 10, 2015​

Eden, Utah — Shortly after a sunset that was deemed “epic” by a young man wearing a beanie, a crowd assembled one Friday night in January at a private lodge atop Powder Mountain, a ski area an hour’s drive from Salt Lake City. A 30-year-old Finn who was a founder of a mushroom beverage company out “to make ’shrooms the new kale” mingled with a former chief creative officer for Microsoft and a founder of PayPal. On a sofa, a New Yorker with the music licensing agency Ascap received a shoulder massage from a self-described “bohemian capitalist” working in health care technology.​

​

The invited guests, most of whom had paid $1,000 to be there, moved into a circular lounge with cushions, designer pendant lights and panoramic views, where a 19-year-old musician from Queens, Candace Lee Camacho, sat behind a piano. An artist in residence that week, Ms. Camacho said it was her first time in the mountains.​

​

“I wrote music, and contemplated existence and where I fit into the world as a human being,” she said, beaming.​

​

Since buying the Utah backwater two years ago, Powder’s owners — a group of entrepreneurs, most of them around 30 years old with no experience in resort development — have hosted several of these salon-inspired “weekend jams” on the mountain they plan to develop, as well as a Pay for Success symposium with the White House, off-site retreats for Patagonia and the Knight Foundation, and the country’s first fat-biking national championships.​

The best is their Waterman100 site. https://waterman100.com/

My favorite aspect of this pitch is the final slide 29: The guys just drop in a photo of Val d'Isere/Europe, something the Mt. Waterman will never be (nor should). WTF?!

 

[snowave]

yes, horrible idea/bad investment. As much as I love the idea of Waterman, I think it's time is over. Just way to many variables to operate it, mainly being the weather and keeping a road open (not to mention employees).

 

[snowtrekker]

If they put half as much effort into actually operating as they did in putting together the sales pitch, there might be some hope for a year or two. But I agree the premise is horribly misguided. The idea of heli-access to avoid road issues is ... creative, I guess, but it makes you wonder whether these guys have ever spent a winter skiing the local areas here...

I also like how their one slide on snowmaking didn't come until the end, and it only said "don't worry, our partners know what they're doing" lol.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Not a horrible idea if the alternative is

I think it's time is over.

I will take $$$ to keep Waterman going. Can Angeles Mountain Partners find 100 people with more dollars than sense to put up that money? SoCal has a big population base, some of it with the resources to spend that kind of $$, so it's not a ridiculous idea.

...the biggest challenge facing guests has been road access, which Caltrans has repaired, resolved and committed to committing operational.

The 20 miles of the Angeles Crest that include Mt. Waterman were closed after the Feb. 24-25 storm in 2023 and did not reopen until Nov. 1. The stretch from the Mt. Wilson turnoff at Red Box to the Upper Big Tujunga junction did not reopen until July 5, 2024.

Angeles Mountain Partners obviously don't believe this either, or they wouldn't be touting their heli plan for powder days. That heli is also going to be shuttling in any staff needed to operate. Will it be possible for the Waterman100

to experience the best powder just as the storm clears and the sun starts to shine?

The cost of a heli flight into the mountains from the SoCal flatlands is not trivial. I'd consider that only for San Gorgonio but of course that can't happen since it became Wilderness in 1964.

 

[EMSC]

I also like how their one slide on snowmaking didn't come until the end, and it only said "don't worry, our partners know what they're doing" lol.

I truly hate to do this comparison, but it is quite similar to nations planning for wars: "Amateurs plan strategy, professionals plan logistics".

 

[ChrisC]

I am sure

I also like how their one slide on snowmaking didn't come until the end, and it only said "don't worry, our partners know what they're doing" lol.

Hopefully, the 3 ancient (almost all 50+ years) keep turning!

Mt. Waterman, CA

Click on a lift’s name for pictures. View in fullscreen↗

liftblog.com

Very similar to the fleet at Mt. Baldy - which does have some plans for upgrades.

Mt. Baldy, CA

Click on a lift’s name for pictures. View in fullscreen↗

liftblog.com

 

[ChrisC]

The reflexive article from SFGate - similar to articles on Homewood, CA.

Historic California ski spot to become a haven for the rich
'More Powder. Less People,' states the ski resort's website.

Link

 

[Tony Crocker]

Dumb headline by SFGate.

One problem Mt. Waterman does not have is overcrowding. When you never open in 9 of the last 18 years and average maybe 10 days open in the other 9 seasons, you establish yourself firmly as "under the radar."

In the current situation you will get a powder day once in a blue moon because Caltrans can't get the road open on a timely basis. The bigger the storm and the higher the snow quality (colder temps = snow covered roads to lower elevations), the longer it will take to get that road open. So letting "the rich" get that powder doesn't offend me because the alternative as demonstrated the past two seasons of well above average snowfall is that nobody gets it.

More Powder. Less People

is a marketing slogan to entice the 100 people to pony up.

 

[snowtrekker]

I'm with Tony on this one. Having something up there is better than nothing. The road situation since the drought of 11-15 has been truly terrible, and I suspect it's something of a chicken-and-egg problem. Caltrans is in no rush to clear the roads when there's "nothing" up there, which keeps it even more under the radar. I've often wondered whether having full-time (live-in) staff or a caretakers helped with this situation. In the early years of the previous owners (2007 or so) this was the case, but there hasn't been anyone up there full-time since at least 2020 and probably earlier.

I've had great days at Mt. Waterman, but recently it's only been on corn. My last time skiing lift-served powder there was probably in 2011.

That said, this sales pitch gives off more than a few "Fyre Fest" vibes when you know the reality up there.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I've often wondered whether having full-time (live-in) staff or a caretakers helped with this situation.

I definitely think that is part of the problem. Liz and I ran into caretaker Todd Brugger in the summer of 2014, and he said he was moving to Idaho before the next ski season. At that time Waterman had been closed for 3 consecutive seasons. In 2020, 2022 and 2024 Mt. Waterman's openings after the first adequate snowfall were delayed by equipment issues and also in 2024 by fixing the phone line. I'd guess those delays would have been shorter if Todd had still been there.

I've had great days at Mt. Waterman, but recently it's only been on corn. My last time skiing lift-served powder there was probably in 2011.

I have 3 ski days at Mt. Waterman since 1995:
Feb. 14, 2009 is why we want Mt. Waterman alive, low competition powder on Saturday of President's Weekend.
March 26, 2011 was a huge miscalculation on my part. Wet fog plus an overnight freeze turned the expected powder into heinous breakable crust.
April 21, 2020 was one corn run of earned turns during the pandemic. Ironically, Baldy reopened its lifts the next day.

Baldy is the better mountain for corn snow due to its larger scale and that corn snow is not quite as dependent upon extreme low skier density as powder is. I had one standout corn day at Mt. Waterman Apr. 23, 1983, notably the 5 slackcountry runs down to the highway below the ski area.