IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!

joegm · Oct 27, 2003

like mo vaughn once said to a boston sports radio personality... " it's not about the money , dale!!!!!"... yeah right!!!... the following is present strictly for entertainment purposes and should not be used to determine that our man "anonymous" is actually les otten incognito. 2003 oct/ opening day- who the hell knows? date mean high low 1 47 53 41 2 43 48 39 3 43 53 33 4 46 48 44 5 42 48 37 6 42 51 33 7 42 55 30 8 59 73 46 9 58 72 45 10 63 73 53 11 61 75 48 12 56 66 46 13 50 62 39 14 50 62 39 15 51 57 46 16 47 51 42 17 41 50 33 18 39 46 32 19 38 46 30 20 36 46 26 21 49 62 35 22 34 35 33 23 32 35 30 24 35 42 28 25 40 51 28 2002/opening day-oct 25 date mean high low 1 65 77 53 2 70 75 66 3 54 68 41 4 50 59 42 5 61 71 51 6 50 62 39 7 55 64 46 8 43 51 35 9 44 55 33 10 55 60 50 11 53 55 51 12 52 55 50 13 54 59 50 14 39 48 30 15 41 55 26 16 42 46 39 17 46 53 39 18 43 51 35 19 42 50 34 20 48 41 33 21 35 44 26 22 35 44 26 23 34 41 26 24 32 42 21 25 34 26 23 2001/opening day-nov 6th date mean high low Oct 15 53 62 44 16 51 64 39 17 50 55 46 18 43 51 35 19 46 62 30 20 50 59 41 21 53 69 37 22 Na Na Na 23 46 57 35 24 55 65 45 25 61 68 55 26 44 50 39 27 41 46 37 28 34 42 26 29 35 48 23 30 35 44 26 31 33 42 24 NOV 1 55 68 42 2 64 71 57 3 53 59 48 4 43 48 39 5 38 41 35 6 35 42 28 2000/ OPENING DAY-OCT 29 date mean high low 14 61 73 50 15 59 71 46 16 48 55 41 17 46 51 41 18 48 51 44 19 50 53 46 20 47 62 32 21 55 70 41 22 50 70 30 23 41 56 26 24 42 57 27 25 50 66 35 26 57 73 43 27 59 72 46 28 43 56 32 29 30 33 26 1999/ OPENING DAY-OCT 25TH date mean high low 10 57 70 44 11 55 62 46 12 44 55 33 13 55 68 42 14 52 70 35 15 41 55 26 16 53 70 37 17 61 72 51 18 49 60 40 19 38 51 24 20 45 51 39 21 41 51 30 22 44 54 35 23 42 46 39 24 44 48 41 25 41 48 33 1998/ OPENING DAY-OCT 22 date mean high low 7 44 53 35 8 56 60 51 9 50 55 45 10 54 61 48 11 52 56 50 12 50 53 48 13 51 55 48 14 51 55 48 15 47 48 46 16 47 51 42 17 46 59 43 18 59 75 44 19 62 72 52 20 51 57 46 21 43 48 39 22 41 44 37 Opening day/ 1997- oct 1 date mean high low Sept 15 61 71 51 16 61 66 57 17 57 72 42 18 66 74 59 19 61 73 50 20 60 70 50 21 48 53 42 22 48 61 35 23 51 57 46 24 43 53 33 25 50 61 39 26 52 55 50 27 48 61 35 28 50 63 39 29 56 61 51 30 58 63 53 Oct1 47 55 39 1996/ opening day-oct 4th date mean high low Sept 20 56 70 42 21 58 72 44 22 56 65 48 23 51 57 46 24 43 55 32 25 48 51 44 26 49 61 37 27 50 60 40 28 62 70 55 29 57 65 50 30 53 59 48 OCT1 57 72 42 2 60 70 50 3 51 64 39 4 35 42 26 in terms of anonymous' assertion that it's all about the temps and not the dough, i find the epic early opening years of 96 and 97 particularly interesting... especially the 5 days leading up to opening day(s) in those years... also his assertion of temps being in the 70's in oct of this year, obviously has no basis of fact at all... anonymous , most of us here , i have to assume , are pretty intelligent... i don't think any of us can look at the above and simply make definitive statements about the company. ( unlike, apparently , yourself ) clearly there are other factors when looking at snowmaking and or the lack of it... relative humidity, rain, cloud cover... but for you to come on and call the die hards here whiners and hypocrites is dubious at best...the above listed numbers pretty much shows you don't know what you are talking about... no one on this site expects the company to run a charity show up there... they can do what ever the hell they want... they can open in december like mad river glen if they want.. but when they constantly and consistently put themselves out the in the media with things like " ski into june" and " october turns " , people are gonna get aggravated without a legitimate explaination... communication from k has been non existant the last 3 weeks... frank just put up a press release from loveland.. they keep their hard cores informed and clearly the tone of the release is one in which one can tell they are really dying and trying to get open... the sense coming out of killington clearly, is that they could care less when they open. their philosophy is clearly to shrink the season and increase the margins in that shortened season. i paid k for my ( very underpriced ) season pass in good faith on july 31st.. do i want to named to the board of directors for that? no.. i just want to be making turns when ever it is reasonable to do so....what's reasonable? a reasonable person would conceed that many factors are involved.. historical data ( see above ) is ONE of the reasonable tools to use in that determination... you are just completely off base with your obvious water holding for killington.. and you look like a jackass calling us whiners and hypocrites

joegm · Oct 27, 2003

i did forget to give it up to frank for providing the opening dates for k and the temps are from the weatherunderground web site..

joegm · Oct 27, 2003

i also forgot to add that the above temps are from rutland, vt.. they did not have them for killington.. one would have to assume that at worst up higher in killington , the temps would be the same and at best, possibly a few degrees cooler on average.. while an inversion is not out of the question, it seems unlikely.

Lftgly · Oct 27, 2003

joegm, you certainly did your homework! That said, I'll grant Anon that the week before 10/25/03 was warmer in Rutland VT than same week last year. However, it compared favorably to the week before opening day in earlier years. In past years, I'm sure the ticket revenue never justified the opening days, and any loss was considered a marketing expense. Now that the books are being audited more closely, strict accounting procedures probably don't allow moving that operating loss into a marketing expense category.

riverc0il · Oct 27, 2003

of course it's about the money. it always was unless you go to a place like MRG that's skier owned (and even they have to make enough money so that the owners don't have to foot more of the bill). just this year, K has decided their early season resources don't justify the cost. given that it's warm and r%&*ing out this morning and going to get warmer as the week goes on... i'm inclined to think they've made a smart business move. all those pics of snow capped mountains were sure exciting, but back to reality. most of that snow will be long gone by the time this week is over <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/sad.gif" ALT="

"> just the fact that loveland and the other early CO openers haven't opened yet says a lot in defence of big K. lately, the west has been beating the east to open due to it's high elevation. looks like no one will be opening in october this year. wowzers. just think about how broad a problem across the US it is in this case.

Frankontour · Oct 27, 2003

Thanks for all the stats, Joegm. I certainly agree with you on the fact they could have opened the Rime/East glade this week without so much red ink in the books. (but of course, it would have been very "red ink" to open T2B, cause of the coming week, warmer) So I agree with River too ! Lftgly : be cautious... This "anonymous" is not "anon" (I really don't think so, at least) I agree with you on the strict accountancy. They don't have the choice to be more conservative for things like openings / closure, cause they have "200" creditors that will kill them, if they try to have a long season. As long as ASC will have many resorts, it will be the same. Finally : River : I don't think that Loveland will open in november. Check the cams... it's really comin' !!

Frankontour · Oct 27, 2003

Loveland update for my last point. Looking the weather forecast, the 3 next days will be too warm to do snowmaking, if they're not ready to open with what they did until now. But after wednesday, the maximums are below freezing, so it's sure they will be able to open in that moment if not before.

Anonymous · Oct 27, 2003

October snowmaking days(below 30 degrees at night, necessary in early season due to higher humidity) As well, as a side note, at 30 degrees snow can be made, but not alot, and at incredibly high cost per acre foot of snow. This is days up to october 25 2003: 2 2002: 5 2001: 0 (Opening day Nov 6, after five days between oct 25 and nov. 6 of below 30 degree weather) 2000: 4 (Before october 29th) After this, i question how valid your information is, because according to your data, it didn't get below 37 degrees for the five days before opening in 1997 or below 39 degrees in the five days before opening in 1998, leading one to believe that something is a little fishy with your numbers.

Frankontour · Oct 27, 2003

Curiously, for 2003, I count 11 days at 33 degrees or less in the datas of Joegm. Why 33 ? Cause on october 3, they did some snow in the Cascade even though the minimum temperature in the report was 33. So assuming the weather was well below 30 those nights, they had some real chances to blow snow at least 11 times in october. On october 20, the weather at low elevation got down to 26 and I can tell you that it was cold a good part of the night + morning. It's why St-Sauveur restarted their snowguns. What the hell was doing Killington, even not trying to make snow on that day, while it was certainly under 20 in the mountain ? Especially as 4 of the 5 next nights had some temperatures enough cold to make snow even on low elevations... Anyway, this conversation doesn't makes sense, cause Killington is just not the right ski area and all I want is that they stop to publish those stupid predictions to open on mid-october, while they perfectly know that they will open on mid-november. KILLINGTON'S SOUL IS DEAD we must just understand that. Anyway, what is Killington ? I think I never read a "good" comment on this mountain on all the boards I write+lurk (except for during the 80s + early 90s) It's not a big vertical, unless you like the long easy trails to reach the bottom of gondola and they even closed the Sunrise, few years ago. The trails seem to be mostly some traverses and is there really some super interesting trails in the mountain, on mid-winter ? doesn't look like that. This mountain seems to just mean "BIG" we're big and that's all... come visit us, we're big, but we don't have soul. All we want is your money, but our managers waste it so much that we turn in the red every years. May be I'm wrong and I'm sure that "anonymous" will say that I am, but I just don't see any interest to ski that mountain, except may be in Superstar in late may, if it's better than last year. Anyway, I prefer to ski alone in the Loup-Garou canyon that helping a so bad ski area and to be with 2000 other skiers in a single trail even though it looks to have nice bumps.

Anonymous · Oct 27, 2003

Honestly, i hate killington, i think it is poorly laid out...no top to bottom trails, lots of flats, doesn't have 200 "trails" has 200 "thirds of trails" since they have top, middle, lower, and sometimes "headwall" counted as 1 trail, there are much better, and realistically bigger, mountains elsewhere in new england. I was just getting sick of some people vehemently bashing killington for not opening in october, as if the mountain was morally obligated to spend $200,000 to blow snow so you could have a few turns in october. If you want to ski, hike somewhere, there was plenty of snow a few days ago. Frank, you did it, you aren't complaining. Frank is right, killington just isn't the mountain to do this anymore.

Frankontour · Oct 27, 2003

Anonymous, I think I'm the 1st one here to be almost 100% agreeing with one of your post <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> I agree that Killington has no moral obligation to open in october. As I said, what I don't agree with is the fact that they put on their website that they would open in mid-october this year. This is just not fair for us and I hope that nobody booked a trip to Killington in October, cause it was looking like sure to be open in the month, with this prediction. Yeah, the Upper, middle, lower, headwall really Sckus. There is few trails where it's OK, like the Juggernaut and its ±10 miles long, but C'mon ... Superstar is 1 trail, not 3. I really wonder what's the future of some huge resorts like that, lost in the low populated areas. Finally, for the "earn your turns", the sad thing is that we must be extremely lucky to have the opportunity to do that. I will continue to think that there is a market for october skiing, but not at Killington. I really hope that Tremblant decide to take this market, cause they would be able to open in middle october without losing the snow, with their elevation + north side + latitude. Sad thing : it's quite far from New England for you all, my friends !

salida · Oct 27, 2003

I agree sort of, I hate killington, the only times i ever ski there is when they have free ski days(hasn't happened in a few years). The only reason I dont totally agree is that they have blown snow in october in the past. They should say they are not going to open till mid november if that is what they are gonna do. If they say they are gonna open in mid october, then they should do that when they have the chance which they did. But you guys are right killington is not the place for early skiing any more. Its time to move on. Porter

joegm · Oct 27, 2003

anonymous, there you go again pullin figures like $200,000 out of thin air.... no one advocated them spending that kind of money...the only thing anyone advocated was that the reason they are not opening is driven, MAINLY, by money and a new philosophy of boosting margins because the company is bleeding badly, IN PART to due to prior mismanagement, not the weather, as you maintain... if you dispute the posted temps, which is your right, tell us about a site which, in-fact, disputes them... mine are from weatherunderground.com...i have no reason to think they would be incorrect, but i guess they could be... show me disputing figures, and i will be the first to agree with you. 2) i am going to have to go against the grain here with k not being the place for early and late.. i think it is the best place for the following reasons. this is only an opinion(s) 1) location... they are centrally located ( RELATIVELY ) to the large populaces of new england. for anyone to make it work you need people to go. the drive is not unreasonable for a day trip for 4 major cities- boston, burlington, new york, and portland maine... plus the whole state of CT. no one is going to drive to sugarloaf or wildcat from new york... people are generally hesitant to drive to jay from boston... no one is going to drive to white face from boston. central new hampshire just doesn't seem to get the snow like central v.t 2) infrastructure- is k my favorite place to ski ?, hardly---it is far from it...at least 5 mountains blow it away for all of the reasonS listed above by various posters. in fact the only time i ski k is before dec 1, and after april bear mountain mogul challenge week. but more than not liking k, is the fact that i do like to ski as much as possible. anyone reasonable is going to give up that early and late season skiing is not about top to bottom , or trees , or racking up 20,000 in vertical or any of that stuff k's is the place that allows me to do that for as long as possible ( well , maybe ). k is ( or was ) finacially solid enough to do this. their snowmaking and access to water is one of the best in new england. i conceed with no problem at all that super early and super late skiing will be made up of 1 or 2 trails. k's set up is ( relatively ) the best for this with rime in the early and the superstar for the late. are there better trails in all of new england for it.. sure.. but when you factor in the access, superstar h.s. quad gets you 1` mile of skiing in about 5 minutes, i don't see how you can beat it. 3) TOWN- k is a big enough town to have enough restaurants and stores to allow the mountain to basically be shut down with all of it's ammenites and still allow a day tripper to be able to access a store for food or a meal... i think when you factor all of that in, i just can't see a better location in the eastern united states... it takes me 3 hours to drive to k...do i like it, no. but it's just close enough/far away, to suck me in and make me do it early and late. i believe there is a market out there for it.. i may be wrong. k either believes that there is no longer a market out there for it, or they believe the market that is there , is not profitable ENOUGH for them to justifiy it when they are bleeding ( in part due to otten's ineptness )... i can't believe that there is another ski area in new england that could make it work if k can't.

Frankontour · Oct 27, 2003

Actually, you're probably right, Joe, with your last sentence (i can't believe that there is another ski area in new england that could make it work if k can't.) But for how much time ? Not really long, I think. There is a market for sure. For just 1 player probably, but there is a market, so one ski area will take this place. Tenney tried to take it this year, but didn't succeed. There will be another player soon, it's almost sure. Who ? I don't know, but I think that we will know it soon. Killington could be THE ski area to close late. Even with their financial problems, they still have the trail to close in june. But they don't have the trail anymore to open in october. There was probably a single trail in New England able to do that : Upper Cascade. Rime is not able... for this, you have to take 1 bus, a couple of chairlifts and this is interesting only for very few die-hard skiers. I would probably even not drive to Killington to ski that, knowing that St-Sauveur will open soon anyway. I would probably have done it, for a trail like Cascade with only one lift to take and easy upload/download, though <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> May be you're right for the cities (although 3+ hours begins to be quite far to drive, for 99,8% of persons), but without a trail to make early skiing possible, the crowd can't help at all...

Kevin · Oct 28, 2003

Frankontour: Are you or anyone else in the group here interested in Former SKII's operating expenses and ski and snowfall data from 1990-1996? Some of the facts inside the corporate reports are interesting. This company operated Mt Snow & Killington for most of its history, only expanding into more markets before selling to ASC. You can get an idea of operating revenue and net income for a ski corporation.

Frankontour · Oct 28, 2003

Yeah, Kevin, this would be interesting, but don't take too much time for this, neither ! I think that snowfall datas are easy to find, but I really wonder about their net income while they weren't under ASC management. Hey, Joe, for this company, don't you think we should change its name... changing the "C" for a "S" ?? It would be more representative. American Ski Society

Kevin · Oct 28, 2003

Frankontour: Just off the top of my head(I am at work) are the revenue and net income for there 1995 statement: Revenue: $114,000,000 (roughly) Net Income:$ 1,200,000 (roughly) The report to shareholders for this year states that New England experienced its 3rd warmest winter in the past 100 years and experienced severe warm temperatures in January 1995. It is stated that only 29 out of 71 ski areas in New England remained opened through this period, including all S.K.I resorts. As of late 1994 there resort list comprised these resorts: Killington-Vermont. Mt Snow-Vermont. Waterville Valley-New Hampshire. Sugarloaf-Maine(51% share) and Bear Valley-California. It is also stated that despite the above normal temperatures in New England for every month from October-March, Killington opened for the season on October 3rd and closed on June 4th. This was also the company's 36 CONSECUTIVE year of profitability!!!!!

Anonymous · Oct 28, 2003

Killington has always been profitable, even now that ASC is owns it, it is ASC on a whole that is not profitable. Killington makes ASC a ton of money (keeps them afloat) whilst they try to develop other resorts (sunday river, the canyons, amongst others) into true destination resorts. Resorts such as sugarloaf, attitash, and mt. snow lose a ton of money for ASC operating wise. This is part of the reason that they are shopping Sunday River and Sugarloaf around as a package, and are refusing to sell Sunday River without the person buying sugarloaf as well. Sugarloaf is a perennial money loser, and will not reap a huge sale price, but sunday river will, and getting rid of sugarloaf takes away one more burden on their bottom line.

Kevin · Oct 28, 2003

Actually Mt Snow is ASC's cash cow according to some people I know that work with the company. Sugarloaf is my favorite resort in the east and is an awesome mountain. Unfortunatly it is very remote and has a hard time attracting a large customer base. I have skied close to 50 days at the resort and I live 465 miles away. I do not know if the resort can survive without a buyer with deep pockets. ASC also did something that S.K.I did not do very much, and that is real-estate which contributed to there financial problems. S.K.I was more focused on just the ski area aspects, not cookie cutter hotels at every resort.

Frankontour · Oct 28, 2003

Sh** I lost the msg I was writing ! <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/sad.gif" ALT="

"> Thanks for the infos, Kevin. It would not surprise me if Killington is still profitable. They're close to 1 million ski-visits by season and at the price they have, they surely make some $$

But ASC is really a hole of money, especially the Canyons, where they put just too much $$ to count it. Sugarloaf is certainly a little hole too, actually, just like Sugarbush was, I imagine, and they surely didn't get a big price for it, looking to the ski-visits of that ski area. 1995 : what a bad snow year. I got a correct season, here, with 16 ski days, from december 11 to april 14, but it wasn't some good skiing, compared to the 2 following years, which have been incredible. The weird thing of 1995 is that in the Chic-Chocs, it was incredible how they got some snow. There was still some huge patches in july on Mt Albert when we went in the Gaspesian park. Finally : Sugarloaf : why do they operate 15 lifts ? I imagine they don't run them everyday, but when there is not big crowd, they could just operate the Whiffletree quad, the Superquad and the Timberline Quad to provide access to about 99% of the terrain (ok + 1 of the 2 lifts at bottom to access the slopes) Operating less lifts and grooming less trails would make them profitable, probably. Ok, there would more crowds, but they would remain correct and with less grooming, the people would pass more time in the slopes, so the effect wouldn't be that bad <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> (May be I should ski the resort before to say this... I know) PS : LOVELAND IS OPEN NOW !

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!

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