Jay Peak, VT: 03/04/07

[riverc0il]

Also, about the Cannon comment: Cannon does usually have a solid base that allows glades and natural snow trails to be skiable between Christmas and early april. That last few seasons have just been nuts.

My experience differs greatly. Cannon's terrain and trails, while being excellent, needs good snow and deep base to open up the glades and the best terrain. Not too often are the glades opened and very rarely is Tramline or Kinsman open. As per my Saturday experience, even when a run like Tramline is actually open (Saturday it should have been roped), it still skis like a total dog due to poor base. After logging over 50 days at the mountain, I have come to the conclusion that it is one of the best mountains around when the snow supports its terrain. But it takes a lot of snow and Cannon is not blessed with high average snowfall.

 

[riverc0il]

Always helpful, but at some western areas not as necessary.

No doubt. I should have specified that I was speaking strictly from an Eastern perspective. Not a lot of acres to spread a lot of traffic, especially on a weekend. Knowledge is less a factor on the weekdays.

 

[awf170]

Also, about the Cannon comment: Cannon does usually have a solid base that allows glades and natural snow trails to be skiable between Christmas and early april. That last few seasons have just been nuts.

My experience differs greatly. Cannon's terrain and trails, while being excellent, needs good snow and deep base to open up the glades and the best terrain. Not too often are the glades opened and very rarely is Tramline or Kinsman open. As per my Saturday experience, even when a run like Tramline is actually open (Saturday it should have been roped), it still skis like a total dog due to poor base. After logging over 50 days at the mountain, I have come to the conclusion that it is one of the best mountains around when the snow supports its terrain. But it takes a lot of snow and Cannon is not blessed with high average snowfall.

Really? You obviously know a lot more about Cannon, but I figured with an average season most stuff should be pretty good the whole year. I'm not talking about kinsmans and tramline, I'm thinking more a long the lines of barren's, hardscrabbles, and easier glades on mittersil. They should be skiable almost the whole season is a decent snow year, right?

Also, I think Tramline is awesome with the coverage it has. I love the middle section with the little mandatory air to instant stop. I lost my ski on my stop on my first try, that was a little bit scary. :shock:

 

[Patrick]

With the immense advance hype of the Valentine's Day storm, a few diehards prepositioned themselves to get in on the action. But how many MA, CT or NY skiers sniffed out Sunday's goods?

The drive from Montreal to Jay is relatively easy, it might just a bit longer in a storm.

Terrain limitations and capricious weather raise the bar in the East in terms of powder opportunities. We have regulars here on FTO who show how it can be done. But they represent a very small minority of the overall eastern skier population.

I'll say something that might be blasphemy to some here :shock: , but skiing isn't all about "Powder". If you would ask the average and majority of skiers, I would be pretty sure that a good proportion of them would choose groomed over powder.... heck, just look at that past conversation on Cannon. :roll:

Personnally, I love powder, I love groomed, I love bumps, I love hardpack, I love corn... 8) Variety is good in life, in skiing also. :wink:

 

[riverc0il]

They should be skiable almost the whole season is a decent snow year, right?

i would expect maybe two months in a good season, three months max. certainly not christmas to april even in a good season.

but skiing isn't all about "Powder".

i agree with this. thus, my choice to ski cannon saturday even though i knew the spine of the greens would surely get more snow. enjoying the terrain is important. the average east coaster is not into powder, but appreciates fresh snow surfaces to soften things up. i think the powder dedication on the east coast is due to having so few good powder days.

 

[Patrick]

but skiing isn't all about "Powder".

i agree with this. thus, my choice to ski cannon saturday even though i knew the spine of the greens would surely get more snow. enjoying the terrain is important. the average east coaster is not into powder, but appreciates fresh snow surfaces to soften things up. i think the powder dedication on the east coast is due to having so few good powder days.

Terrain and challenge are the most important in my book, I've had an argument on Zoneski that I would rather ski steep on hard surfaces versus powder on non-challenging mountains. People were drinking 5-8 hours to find a powder mountains and natural snow, I told them that I would prefer driving less than 2 hours (if i'm in Montreal) to find some challenging mountain regardless of the snow conditions.

I love Whiteface, everyone knows that the area doesn't receive much snow compared to the Vermont areas.

 

[Nhski]

Only Riverc0il (in his current location) and powderfreak seem to get the powder with any consistency.

I live in southern NH and have consistently been at Jay for almost all of the pow days. Helps to rent a place up there.

 

[MikeM]

Why not just do what Mad River Glen does (the yard stick by which all Eastern Snow Reporting is measured) and link to an unofficial weather forecaster?

For the record, the MRG blogger had a bust the week before last -- but that happens with weather forecasting and I suspect even more so in prognosticating terrain-induced (fairly localized) snow. On the other hand, this past Thursday he said there could be 2-3' by today (sound familiar?) and by MRG's tallies he did nail the range -- the mountain reported 9" Friday, 6" during the day Sunday, 5-7" overnight Sunday (though at the board at the summit yesterday they wrote "Ski Patrol monitor: Up to 9 inches"), another 4" yesterday and a "wind-driven few inches" last night.

My own TR from MRG yesterday is upcoming ...

 

[Tony Crocker]

Just a few comments.

Riverc0il supports my opinion on Cannon's coverage issues, not surprising since his reports formed most of that opinion.

I'll say something that might be blasphemy to some here , but skiing isn't all about "Powder".

I agree with this. And that's one of the reasons for the big disparity between quality of eastern and western skiing. When the snow is fresh the Vermont skier has experiences similar to a western skier at his local mountain. But if it hasn't snowed in a week or two, most western areas still retain full coverage, decent surfaces and lots of variety to keep us interested. But usually in the East the conditions are crap by then, and terrain (typically the most interesting terrain) is often lost due to excessive rain or thaw. Like ski ability, snow conditions also have a bell curve. And it's the bottom half of the Northeast's bell curve that is the big problem.

With regard to reporting conditions, some of us have noticed that Mammoth was putting excessive positive spin on its website when conditions were not that great this season, and some would contend that the base depth numbers still look optimistic. Fortunately Mammoth's website also has links to independent and locally based weather forecaster Howard Scheckter, and also an active forum whose posters provide accurate eyewitness info.

 

[Patrick]

But if it hasn't snowed in a week or two, most western areas still retain full coverage, decent surfaces and lots of variety to keep us interested. But usually in the East the conditions are crap by then, and terrain (typically the most interesting terrain) is often lost due to excessive rain or thaw.

[-(
I'm in total dissagrement on this point. If it hasen't snowed in two weeks doesn't necessarily mean that the conditions are crap or that it has rained or thawed. There is also deep cold spells and blue bird days. You also forget that most areas in the East aren't so natural snow dependent.

If by crap, you mean no fresh tracks and not hearing your skis turn then you might have a point...my point is that skiing is more about turning and challenging yourself.

What is crap conditions anyway? As long as the coverage in decent and that I'm not damaging my skis, I wouldn't say that the conditions are crap.

Crap conditions? Stuff like we encoutered at the lead-in toward the Big Sky's Big Couloir and NSF or stuff I've seen at Snowbird. Other than that and as long as you can carve it without hitting anything, the conditions are good.

 

[Admin]

But if it hasn't snowed in a week or two, most western areas still retain full coverage, decent surfaces and lots of variety to keep us interested. But usually in the East the conditions are crap by then, and terrain (typically the most interesting terrain) is often lost due to excessive rain or thaw.

[-(
I'm in total dissagrement on this point.

As am I.

 

[riverc0il]

But if it hasn't snowed in a week or two, most western areas still retain full coverage, decent surfaces and lots of variety to keep us interested. But usually in the East the conditions are crap by then, and terrain (typically the most interesting terrain) is often lost due to excessive rain or thaw.

Eastern areas do not loose terrain due to rain and/or thaw. You will notice many Eastern areas close down operations 100% open after numerous weeks of above freezing temperatures and occasional rain. The biggest issue Eastern areas face is rain or high moisture activity followed by a hard freeze. This can certainly eliminate good terrain or make expert natural snow terrain painful to attempt. Snow quality certainly degrades every week there is not fresh snow, but terrain is generally only closed when excessive warmth over numerous days or a rain/freeze cycle occurs.

This season is a good case in point as we did not have snow storms every week, but terrain has consistently expanded and not suffered any set backs except at the southern areas for more than two months now. Even a minor set back such as the record warm 60 degree days in January did not overly reduce terrain quality or trail count. I am sure many western areas handle down time between storms better than the East, but the rain/freeze or freezing rain issues are really the only dagger in the heart that wipe out good terrain instantly.

 

[Tony Crocker]

As of MLK this year trail counts were barely at 50% at the most reliable eastern areas and below that elsewhere. End of January about 3/4 of trails open. No question the last 3 weeks have been excellent by anyone's standards.

I analyzed the late season decline in trail count in some detail in the thread about Gpaul's April trip: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=2358 . The Mansfield stake at 3,900 feet averages 2 days and one inch of rain in March. Given the lower elevation of eastern skiing most areas do not see trail counts near 100% at the end of March. I have recorded several Northeast March warm rain meltdowns in my progress reports over the past decade.

As river notes, it is not only loss of cover but hard freezes that can close trails. And there is not much question that the most interesting terrain is last to open and first to close.

I don't know whether GPaul is still coming East in April, but the last month has raised his odds of success from dismal to average.

 

[Patrick]

As of MLK this year trail counts were barely at 50% at the most reliable eastern areas and below that elsewhere. End of January about 3/4 of trails open. No question the last 3 weeks have been excellent by anyone's standards.

You might recall that we were having the worst start to a ski season weather in the East that I can remember (your numbers don't tell the whole story). The National Capital Commission in Ottawa was woking on it's "plan C" for Winterlude. Since then, it got cold, cold enough to freeze the Rideau Canal (World's longest skating). The canal needed two weeks of highs colder than -14c for 10-14 days to even come close to open. Guess what? It happened and the part of the canal open just in time (Late weekend of January - one prior to Winterlude). It was the biggest Winterlude ever (close to 30 years?) in attendance (400,000 during the two weeks). The Canal is still open and we haven't had a thaw or rain since. Some might be forecast for Saturday. :? That's two months!!!

The skiing on the local hills and Tremblant have be great for almost two months.

Given the lower elevation of eastern skiing most areas do not see trail counts near 100% at the end of March.

As for the numbers dropping in the East, many areas including Tremblant shuts down lifts that access trails once the season is widding down. Those numbers aren't uniquely based on snow conditions, but on closing operations.

And there is not much question that the most interesting terrain is last to open and first to close.

Again, it depends of you're defintion of best terrain? If I take the example of Expo at Tremblant (not necessarily my favorite Tremblant run), it rarely close prior to the last weekend of the year.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

your numbers don't tell the whole story.

=D>

 

[Tony Crocker]

I always tell people to believe what their eyes and skis tell them more than the numbers. When the numbers are properly used they often tell the same story. And I get most of the "eyes and skis" info about the East from reading reports here.

I should apologize for using a subjective expression like "conditions are crap," which obviously means different things to different people. Most eastern skiers have a much more lenient definition than I do, and I would add that many if not the majority of western skiers (I've already seen admin trending in this direction) have stricter definitions than mine.

Marginal conditions can be put in 2 major categories IMHO: So bad it's not worth skiing (heresy to those of the Frankontour mentality), and those where it's better than not skiing, so I'll do it every few weeks but not every week. I exercise this judgment all the time with respect to SoCal local skiing.

In my "not worth skiing" category I define the following:
1)Very limited terrain open, and none particularly challenging. If I'm going to be restricted to groomers, I don't want to deal with the excessive skier density that is a byproduct of limited runs open. From what I read, this is where eastern skiing was this season to mid-January. Also applied to Mammoth before this Christmas, and in general to Big Bear in most seasons until close to Christmas.
2)Adverse weather that puts the off-piste off limits and also leaves the groomed in unpleasant condition. This is primarily the hard freeze/coral reef Riverc0il mentions. Due to rain incidence this is much more common East than West, and what I experienced at Jay in 2003 after the previous 2 warm days at Stowe and MRG. I avoided Baldy in January 2005 for the 3 weeks following an ill-timed deluge of rain. We've heard reports of a "coral reef" spell in Utah in January 2003, and evidently there were a few similar days after I came home from my annual Iron Blosam trip 2 years ago. Late spring cooloffs at Mammoth aren't pleasant either, but normally in both Utah and Mammoth the agent that drives down the temps is the approach of a new storm that will turn the situation around in a couple of days.

My "worth skiing occasionally" conditions are generally:
1) The areas dependent upon snowmaking and grooming for a decent surface, thus minimal off-piste terrain. Snow Summit is the classic example in my neighborhood, and Stoneham in 2003 was a direct analogy in nearly every way. So I was at Big Bear in December and January, but will not go out there during the 1-2 week intervals between my March destination trips. If the more interesting skiing at Baldy were open now, I would be skiing there.
2) The late season/limited hours skiing at Mammoth. From May onwards I go up there once a month until it closes. These trips are generally better than what I read on FTO from the east in April because the limited terrain at Mammoth includes the interesting and challenging top of the mountain and because of the other available Sierra activities like Yosemite.

I am aware that many of you would define these categories differently. To each his own.