Killington 5/19&20/03

Frankontour · May 23, 2003

Hmm, I think it would be tough to be economically possible to run 2 quad chairlifts with just few skiers at the end of the seasons. It's why the the doubles on Spillway/Boardwalk looked to be a more interesting possibility, as anyway, the diehard skiers don't mind to just climb with double chairlifts and not new high speed quads... I understand what you mean for Woodbury that have beaten Killington in october. It was the same thing here, as it was the first years in decades that it wasn't St-Sauveur that was opening first, but La Reserve on oct 26, with a trail not really higher than the one open at Woodbury on oct 24. For skiing the same trail year after year, I understand the point, as the West 70 becomes to be a little bit boring, here too (despite this year, we got Nordic until the end !). Nevertheless, it's better than nothing... and nothing is coming soon, as ****KILLINGTON OFFICIALLY CLOSE IN 3 DAYS**** So in the 17 last years, there is just 3 years they closed before may 26 (1988-89 ; 1997-98 ; 1998-99) I wonder which snowpatch will be skiable the most long : Loup-Garou against Superstar

lol

cd · May 23, 2003

As a follow up to my thread-starting post above (great thread, too!), Kmart's website today now confirms, as I suspected, that Monday 5/26 will be their last day. I'm sure the cover is getting thinner by the hour. June 1st or beyond would've been no prob with the serious snowmaking of years past but moot point now. I join others in the hope that a non-ASC area will grow some balls and once again make it a real competition for opening/closing date bragging rights. The industry needs a few giants like ASC and I've had many great days at their areas and will continue to be a loyal customer, but I just miss that old feeling that ski decisions such as opening/closings were being made by hard core chompin-at-the-bit skiers, i.e. the parkas as opposed to the suits. Sign o' the times and certainly not something unique to the ski industry, but still...

Frankontour accountant · May 23, 2003

Yep, I think we all miss the old feeling of openings/closings decisions made by real skiers. All that count now is money, cash flows and net income. Many ski areas are in real financial difficulties and we can't blame many of them. But for some others that do millions of income, it's too much sad that they don't share their money with us... with snow and lifts opened ! Example : Mont Saint-Sauveur international made 1 037 669$ of net income for the 2001-02 season, even with one of the worst ski season in the last decades. Ok, it's some canadian money, but don't you think they can do more for us. Bof... anyway, it's not the ski area to attack, as it's the 2nd best in the East for latest closures after Killington, but if they just did for 50 000$ more of snowmaking into West 70..... certainly in june and not may 5 (last year), as we got a very cool spring. They would have still had 987K$ of net income after this. Ok, it's sure they have 7-8 ski areas with that (Jay Peak into them) + 1-2 Waterparks where to invest their profits, but... Like I said, this is not the best example as they already close laaate, but for other profitable ski areas, it's somehow a little shame.

Frankontour · May 23, 2003

58 480 000$ US of NET income for Intrawest. Hmm, I think I won't say my opinion on this, as I could audit their financial statements within few months... oops (I don't think it's the Montreal office that audit them, though)

Kevin · May 23, 2003

The trail to watch for late season snow might also be belt parkway at Hunter Mountain. this trail is also partialy shaded and alot of snow is made there. Hunter's website has not had a picture of the mountain since May 1st, but at that time it still looked skiable (at least the bottom anyway). A better option for Killington would be to use the rime trail for Both early and late season skiing. The bottom terminal of the glades triple is 3,350 in elevation with a summit elevation of 4,080. The easterly exposure and high elevation would probably extend the season a bit more. Access for this trail in the early and late season is difficult as anyone who has had been tossed around in the killington shuttle (read truck) knows all to well. I think that the only way to really extend the ski season is to go with short high elevation trails such as the rime trail at Killington, spillway at Sugarloaf or Rim Run and Upper elbow at Sugarbush. There is alot of talk about building an indoor snow dome in the Meadowlands outside of New York, if this comes true there will be no more worrying about at least some off season skiing. I for one am keeping my fingers crossed that this actually happens.

Kevin · May 23, 2003

I just wanted to add the fact that the late season skiing at Killington seems to end earlier since thay added the @#$%# water park at the bottom of the superstar trail. What genious decided to put a water park in at 2,540 ft in elevation. This elevation + water= cold customers. I golfed at Killington in late August of 1999 and I recall going to the base lodge to take a look at the water slide and hearing people complain about how cold the water was (in August!!!!) Maybe the management decided that lingering snow on the trail might discourage customers from freezing to death. Put the water park in at Pico and leave the skiing to Killington.

Frankontour · May 23, 2003

For Rime, I don't really know if it would be an interesting place to end a season. After 5 months of waiting, many skiers consider it like interesting skiing, but after 6 months of skiing, don't you think you would find it boring a little bit ? Also, the sun use to hit heavier the less steep trails, especially if it's east/south/west oriented. There is of course the problem to reach the Glades zone. It's a little bit the same thing for Sugarbush North, like you said, but Upper FIS could extend season a long time too, as it was still skiable last week I think. For the snowdome, I think I have some real good news for you ! From Mister ski reference himself, Patrick Thorne (parts of articles) Mills Get Go Ahead For New Jersey Snowdome The Mills Corporation have been selected by the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority to have exclusive rights to negotiate a developer's agreement, for the development of a $1.3 billion family entertainment and recreation complex, complete with office complex and hotel at the Continental Arena site in East Rutherford, New Jersey. The Xanadu team also includes the New York Giants. The Xanadu proposal will include what will probably be America's first snow dome, currently initially called simply 'Snow Dome'. There will be a wide range of other attractions. The entire complex will cover 4.76-million-square-foot complex and be divided in to three 'zones' -sports/recreation, kid's activities and fashion. It is intended to make Xanadu a destination in its own right. Also Buffalo... New Snowdome Planned For Buffalo, USA Abraham Reichmann, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Syata Group LLC, has signed a letter of intent to develop a unique US $100-million indoor, year-round entertainment, sports and themed-shopping destination in Buffalo, New York. The letter of intent, which has been signed in collaboration with the County of Erie, the State of New York, the City of Buffalo, the Buffalo Urbann Renewal Agency, and the Niagara Frontier Transportation Agency, a state agency, designates Syata as the developer of this project. Buffalo is a 20-minute drive from Niagara Falls, which attracts 12.5 million visits annually. The complex, which will be a minimum of 250,000 square feet, is a prototype that will be rolled out in other cities in North America and Europe. Preliminary attractions planned for the complex include a mini beach with indoor/outdoor waterpark, a year-round indoor snow palace with snowboard half pipe and festive-themed retail, restaurants and clubs. There would also be local historical and cultural exhibitions; a children's playworld; multi-purpose show/concert/performance venue, comedy club, dinner mystery theatre; music, movie, sports exhibits; an extreme sports venue'; other sports including golf and baseball; a cyber arcade; 3D/4D motion simulator rides; circus; mini TV/Radio Studio with live broadcast from the venue and an indoor racing centre. Back to Frankontour --> Honestly, this is well, but I don't think this could attain 5% of the fun we could find in a real ski area. (heh, where's da glades ??)

Kevin · May 24, 2003

Rime would get boring but no more so than skiing upper cascade in the pre gondola days both early and late in the season. Even though this has been said time and time again, Killington really hurt there early and late season skiing by not having a lift with a mid-station on upper cascade. A better choice would have been to have a detachable chairlift with a midstation such as is the case with the palmer chair on the palmer snowfield at Mt Hood Oregon. Still having an indoor snow dome would at least take the edge off waiting for winter again. If the new technology off using high pressure air to force crushed ice out of a snow gun really works out at Tenny Mt, any ski area with reasonable summer temps could try to at least offer a short ski run early and late in the year. Tenny plans to try to offer snow tubbing in June (at least so there web site claims)I for one would like to try snow tubbing in the summer even if it means driving for 4+ hours to do so.

Frankontour · May 24, 2003

For the mid-station uploading high speed quads, yes, it's a wonderful innovation. Le Massif here also have one, since last year. Actually, it doesn't serve to nothing in particular, but as it's just above the elevation where the snow melts faster, they could certainly run it into june, with at least the Charlevoix + Fenomene trails. The only problem would be to come back to the parking lot, as it's a little bit long to walk from there, but I'm sure with a little shuttle, this could be OK. Only problem : 3h30 from Montreal (without stop). (at least, it's just 1h off Quebec city which have not so far of 1M people in it large area. No problem of snow and we could see some investments in the 10 numbers (G$) over the next years. So, I don't like so much that ski area, but if they were running into june, I could change my mind... don't know why... <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

">

Kevin · May 24, 2003

Hats off to Killington for a long season. October 25th-may26th is very impressive. I cannot remember Killington having such a long continuous ski season without the typical early season opening and closing routine. I wonder if this is a record for the resort, certainly not the length of the season but a long season without one day of suspended operations. Ive heard that La Nina is returning and that this winter could be very dry. That is a similar forecast to last winter which at, least in southern New England was anything but dry. Lets all hope for more snow this winter.

Frankontour · May 24, 2003

I don't know for the continuous ski days, but this is the opening / closing dates in the last seasons for Killington !

The ski days are the real number of days where they ran chairlifts.

You can add to that Nov 6 to June 1 for 2001-02, if I don't mistake + oct 25 to may 26 for 2002-03. I also hope that next winter will be really snowy, as this year was not especially, here. We just got 60 inches of snow in Montreal (most of them in November and March). The best snow spots in Laurentians / Lanaudiere only got 150", which is already better than last year, though.

Patrick Corcoran · May 24, 2003

Hi all, what a discussion. In the last few weeks there have been alot of talk about early closing. It is sad to say, but the skiing is not the number one priority of the ski industry anymore - it's real estate and all the Disney-esque experiences on taking a holiday at the mountain. For us die-hard skiers, there wasn't a problem with skiing. I didn't need heated gondola, super-quads everywhere, manicure ski trails, etc. Intrawest, ASC, etc ... started to shift their efforts away from skiing (did someone just mentioned waterpark at K). The smaller ones do not want to be left behind. Luckly, there a Mad River out there to buck the system. Ski areas started messing around with things that were not broken. Many areas borrowed important amount of cash, and know we are paying the price, literally. Late season places & trails: Sugarloaf would be a great place for late season skiing (I also skied prior to closing in late April with 100% terrain opened). However, there are 4 factors why I believe they couldn't be a prime candidate for latest closing. 1) ASC is not going to push more than one area in the same market (ie. East) to closes the latest. 2) Keeping snow at the final flat at the bottom would require alot of energy and money. 3) Requires more than one lift open (the double?)(if no snow on bottom). 4) It is far from the market. Killington is at least, more or less in the middle of New England - half way between Boston and Montreal. Market and Lift logic, that's way I mentioned Ste.Anne and Tremblant. I also mentioned Cannon previously. Those three areas run they gondolas/Tram not only for ski season, so they just need to run one lift for skiing. Gondola/Tram is running anyway. Improving something that is not broken (see frankontour table and the one below): With all the improvement in snowmaking in the past years, you would think that K would close every year in June, Ok there might also be global warming (not this season). In trying to improve the spring skiing experience, K decided to create the new Superstar trail (nothing like the old one) with a fast Quad plus the latest snowmaking equipment - first spring 1989. It took 3 years and incredible amount of snowmaking to push Superstar into June. Prior to that, the skiing was on Upper Cascade serviced by a double with a midstation. I don't remember ever seeing the amount of articial snow on Cascade that Superstar had. Upper Cascade was maybe as good than Superstar trail wise, but I believe it required less money and efforts to close late. Plus, instead of having a truck to get to a lift in the Fall, (is there something more awkward than that for K), you could just ride the double and download at the end of the day. Waterpark at K: in those days, at the end of the ski day people would just jump in the reservoir at the bottom double (EEEEI!!!). Killington ski seasons. I couldn't find for 84/85 & 85/86 - I believe the closing was in early June both years. 1983/84 - Oct. 20 - June 21 - 246 1982/83 - Oct. 17 - June 16 - 240 1981/82 - Oct. 20 - June 15 - 225 1980/81 - Oct. 14 - May 27 - 226 1979/80 - Oct. 10 - May 23 - 221 1978/79 - Oct. 16 - May 22 - 219 1977/78 - Oct. 24 - May 23 - 195 1976/77 - Oct. 27 - May 15 - 201 1975/76 - Oct. 30 - May 5 - 173 1974/75 - Oct. 19 - May 12 - 190 1973/74 - Nov. 5 - Apr. 30 - 177 1972/73 - Oct. 20 - Apr. 15 - 184 1971/72 - Nov. 9 - May 18 - 192 1970/71 - Nov. 18 - May 21 - 184 Profits: Intrawest makes money because they know that it not worth pushing for late closure, unfortunately for us. What is the income versus the expenses in the late season (salaries, lifts, employees, facilities, cost to make extra snow earlier in the season). I have skiied Killington a few times in late May and June (ie. beautiful warm days - excellent condtions) with less than 15 cars in the parking lot - and I bet some of those had season passes. PS. Frank, when you mentioned net income - do you meant profit??? It is not necessarly the same thing. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprise for MSS and Intrawest. KILLINGTON CLOSING ON MONDAY --- DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THE SKIING IS GOING TO BE FREE?

Frankontour · May 24, 2003

Wow Patrick, this is a complete tour to response to a huge conversation <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> First : Net Income is the traduction of "Bénéfice Net" = Profits $$$$$$$ all in the pockets of the company and the shareholders eventually (although it's not necessary cash flows... too complicated to explain that here). Of course, it's before the dividends, but it's after income tax and abnormal things. So before income tax, it's 1,6M of profit for St-Sauveur and 68M $ of profit for Intrawest. (I like so much the income statement of St-Sauveur which shows the "part of shareholders without control" for a big 834$ compared to 44 135 899$ of revenues <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

">) lol (this is not really normal) Thanx a lot for the chart of opening / closing date of Killington in the 70s and early 80s. You're somehow right to say Intrawest do big profits cause they understood that it was not a good idea to operate their resorts laaaate in the season. In fact, for the big ski areas and organization, it's tough to operate daily and on the ground basis, cause they plan their activities 2 years before and they don't want to exceed 0,01$ of their budget. It's why it may be more some independant little organization ski areas that could finish late in the season now. You're also right for the diehard skiers. The best proof is effectively the popular single chairlift of Mad River Glen. You must really like skiing to take it... alone for 15 minutes, going for some of the best terrain in the East, on legendary trails like Chute / Fall Line / Cat Bowl, Lower Antelope and Paradise (more recent). Here, we Have Alta and Shefford for little Mad River. Alta have the old rusty double chairlift and the very best global extreme terrain in QC and Shefford have the old t-bars in which 75% of people don't reach the summit, to let us the best powder, every day of season, on the big summit part of the mountain. You don't have to wonder why Alta is my favorite ski area (equal with Orford now) even though I skied a good lot of 2000'+ high ski areas. This area just breath ski... diehard ski. Just looking to the owner, Oswald Lingat, you understand this is the ultimate diehard mountain. (honestly, this is the only CEO that ever sharpened my skis) LOL Of course, most of the best extreme skiers in Quebec are at La Réserve. I think near 50% of the local skiers have already jumped off the 12' high cliff at the end of the second pitch of la Chute Libre ! lol ! (I've even seen often a line up to jump off it) RE-LOL ! It's the only place where I've seen a skier jumping a cliff of more than 30' high (and he succeeded it... crazy). But in general, it's a semi-diehard mountain, as the lower mountain is boring except few trails and the new quad is extra-comfortable, so it looks to be a sweet diehard mountain <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> If Alta had snowmaking (like in the past they had), I think it would be able to beat Superstar without too much problem. It would be the perfect ski area to beat it. They have the "true ski" mind, super diehard mind, they just have 10-15 employees at all, they're in one of the most snowy place in the southern Quebec and the place holds the snow incredibly. Without snowmaking, they closed 1 week after many ski areas in New England and Colorado. La Principale could beat Superstar as it's near the chairlift, it's wide and one of the best mogul trails in southern QC (if not the best at all) and guess what... canyon stiled lower part <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

">. But forget that for now, anyway, to have the money to have snowmaking, they would have to change their mind of "WILD ski area" anyway and I don't expect that in the coming years (except if I win to the jackpot). So what a conversation here... just too much interesting !

Anonymous · May 24, 2003

This is the Link for Tenney Mountain's Tubing on Natural Snow: <A HREF="http://www.tenneymtn.com/events/" TARGET="_top">http://www.tenneymtn.com/events/</A> Tenney Mountain will be open for Tubing on their "Sno Magic" snow 06-14-03. They will be open all summer long for Tubing Daily from 5-9 P.M. with an outdoor grille. I was told that they were planning a Ski Camp in July. If things go well with the new Snowmaking system then I could see them seeing who would show up to ski on their "Sno Magic Snow". As far as who could have the best snow conditions between Easter and Thanksgiving, it looks like nobody will be able to touch what Tenney will be able to do, barring the snow making plant does NOT break down. Every other ski area needs to depend on the weather (Temperatures below 30 Degrees in the Fall Only). Tenney will NOT be Dependant on the weather since they will actually manufacture their snow indoors. Then blow the alreay made snow out onto the mountain when needed. I already have my Season Pass which was $255, which is supposed to be good from 10-01-03 through Closing Day. This past season was the first year that I skied Tenney, and surprisingly liked it very much. I was in the middle of building a house, so there was basically no money to spend on skiing this season. I usually ski at least a dozen different areas in NH, VT, MA, ME, and Tuck's. I bought a season Pass at Tenney for $199, and a Threedom Pass for $226 which is good for Loon, Waterville, and Cranmore in NH. I had Two Free Tickets at Bretton Woods in NH, and Two $29 Vouchers for the Big K in VT. Then I would make a few trips to Tuck's in the Spring. All of these passes gave me some nice variety, even though they were NOT Jay Peak, Widcat, or Sugarloaf. Tenney has about the same Vertical as Bretton Woods which is 1400 Feet I beleive. I skied there quite a bit this year except for the 25 below days in late January and early February. Whenever I was at another ski area I found myself always saying that I should have went to tenney because the conditions were always much better there. They seem to groom only when and where it is needed, so there was always lots of natural, ungrromed snow to be found days after the last storm had come through. There are spots that catch snow and the powder builds up quickly in these spots. I spoke to a friend that skied Wildcat in a Sunday storm. He had boot high powder which he thought was great. I told him I skied knee deep powder at Tenney. They have 5 or 6 nice glades, although some of them are very short. One Glade Trail that I beleive is called Englewood Glade is a long Glade with Tight Maples and nice boot high snow. You might see one or two other skiers but usually you are by yourself. They have one steep trail which is a nice steep drop off with bumps that you need to ski over a ridge to get to. The actual steep part is the real thing although it is not too long; probably 300 Feet. Sweet William has nice pitch and is where the snow builds up, and you can get about ten turns in Knee Deep Powder in a nice drop off on the left side. My favorite trail is Hornet which is a narrow, old fashioned New England trail that runs under the Hornet Chair rom top to bottom, usually with ungroomed snow, bumps, a legde or boulder to fly off, then a drop off with good sized bumps near the bottom. Instead of going on and rating each trail, Tenney is a nice place to get many runs in a day, good conditions, fair prices, friendly people, convenient (Only 50 Minutes from Manchester) 10 minutes from Exit 26 on 93 in Plymouth, NH. Even though the parking lot is full, I have never waited more than five minutes in line, and when on the mountain you may see 5 or 6 people, you might see 1 or 2 people, other times you might NOT see anyone else most of the way down depending on what Trail you are on. I never was bored at Tenney, which is surprising, since I like a lot of variety. You ski the same trails when you go there, but between the Glades, Hornet, the steep Snap Dragon or Forget Me Not, the snow conditions, and the feeling of this is your mountain (No Crowds, or people skiing into your family), it all makes for a nice day. I found that it has a country club kind of a feel. Just go ther, ski as fast as you like, you can fly off of rocks and ledges without anyone complaining. The ski are is run by ski industry people who did a great job this year. If everything works out as it did this winter then it should be a very nice and interesting summer at Tenney, even if it is only for Tubing and Dinner. But come October 1, I do NOT think there will be anyone that will have better conditions than Tenney. They can't since Tenney can make their snow at 60 Degrees, and everyone else simply can NOT.

Frankontour · May 24, 2003

Short answer : WOW !!!!!! It looks quite better than just with statistics ! thanks for this appreciation ! if you get news of the place this summer (or if you visit), it would be really cool if you were writing a little bit here to let us see how it's like !

joegm · May 25, 2003

kevin, i must disagree witht the "props' for k for this season.. frankly it seems quite unimpressive when one looks at the charts provided by frank and patrick... snow making technology has only progressed since the 70's. the trends on the charts show that they are opening later and closing sooner... the opening part is more out of their hands than the closing , in my opinion. they did in fact have a record opening this year.. it was the first time that they opened with top to bottom skiing, which is good.. until you look at it closer...i give em no credit at all for opening with top to bottom... that was becasue they were blessed by mother nature with cold temps and natural early on.... opening top to bottom , while i certainly find that appealing in the sense that i was not riding a pickup truck up the mountian, indicates to me that they could have opened earlier, but didn't. the charts clearly indicate their average opening has been , for the better part of 15 to 20 years, much sooner than it was this year...again not that it wasn't great skiing onto the gondy in oct, but lets not get to crazy with the compliments... especially when the charts don't suppport it... what the charts do support is what most are saying... they are clearly looking to shrink the shoulders of the season for what one can only assume is to boost the margins, which is their right .. i guess.. so i must vehemently disagree with your statement of saying this years dates of operation were "very impressive"... the asc has every right to cut down the season if they want to... i'm certainly not going to tell em i'm impressed if they choose to do so. i wish i could contribute more of an opinion about late season places that frankontour is able to hit, but i can't becasue it is literally another country away!!!!... sugarloaf, while a wonderful area, is in my opinion, out of the question for a late season area, since i am starting to shift just as much of the blame for the current state of affairs onto the public as much as the ski areas, which seem to be dealing with the relatively new burden of unbelievable insurance rates and premiums...( my buddy gil blames snowboarding and new school for this, i blame individuals like the 3 who sued loon a few years ago after one of em died on triple trouble becasue he was inept and over his head ) but that's another topic ) i am by no means letting k and asc and loon and booth creek ( which might even be worse than asc ) off the hook because i am disgusted with them , believe me... but the fact is the demand just does not appear to be there, or if it is, is is not being articulated loudly enough... i don't know what the hell is wrong with people...clamoring to slide around on hardpacked in november and throwing in the towel in the last week of march... obviously this is preaching to the converted on this site, but the readers of this site are not going to be enough to cause a change or a shift of direction or policy... i digress... sugarloaf is simply way to far away from a populace to support the idea.. it's just that simple.. maybe if they charged $100 a day to ski they could justify it , but anything short of that is a dream.. i think it's a miracle that that place operates at all, frankly... i can talk a lot but the truth is i really do not know what the answer is. tenney is not going to be sucessful if they are not supported financially... k apparently is not going to return to the glory days of the 80's and early 90's if they are either sold and hero owner runs the place or they have a major shift in their operating philosophy, which appears to be " shrink the season... boost the margin " . i still cannot get past the fact that cannon cannot make money with late season skiing through june , since they run the tram in the summer,have the relative elavation, have an ideal location , logistically, have the trail, and have a host of other things going for them....to anonymous from tenney.. great info... hopefully they will move and progress their idea of early opening to a late closing... right now though the oct 1st opening is kind of misleading... it's only on the weekends for the public as it stands right now, according to the gm... and as a loon passholder, i assume you were there at some point in april so you could see that they clearly could have been spinning well past their closing date... patrick and frank.. props for the charts... i swear to god i am going to copy em and put em on car windshields next year at k <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> ... "LOSS" ( Les Otten Still Sucks ) !!!!!

Patrick · May 25, 2003

I have called K tonight - what a long snow report... all the activities are mentioned (water slide, mtn bike, golf)... the actual info on the conditions last maybe 30% of the message. Alas, no mention on free skiing for Monday (like I believe for some previous closings). Lift ticket $39US... Times have changed, I was willing to drive anywhere within a 4hr radius from Montreal to go skiing, so I would always end my season, like many other at K. (it true that I am an extra 2 hr away now + I have children). I haven't skied once at K in the last 3 season, for me it is simply not worth it - 3hr from Montreal (5hr from Ottawa where I live). I skied each year on June1st when Superstar was open and ski in the Fun Slalom (92-97). There wasn't any race last year (it wasn't mentioned if there was) ... it's true, there wasn't any snow, however there was no snow in 93 either. The course was set at the bottom of the final pitch... there wasn't any snow elsewhere to set it, the lenght of the walking required was about the same as what was skiable, it was foggy and cold (I had my tuque on with my ski jacket). June 1st skiing was free back then, after that they changed $20 in 94(?). If you did the race, you add a free t-shirt + plus a voucher for the next season. The free t-shirt was dropped in 95. So you can see how K has cut back in something that are appreciated from the die-hard, who like me, don't have a ton of money to spend on lift tickets in the late season (which is rare not to find deals) or especially on the November madness when all the tourists show up on the slope(s) after 8 months hibernation. Wonder how long will it take before ASC eventually pulls the plug on the May1st free skiing at SundayRiver? Great places for spring and all season long. Sorry Frank, I have never skiied Alta(QC), but the minimum requirement for my favorite mountain is at least 1500-2000ft vert. When I left University, thus the skiteam, I just add enough of the many days spent in the Laurentians (ie. St-Sauveur, Avila, Olympia, Gabriel, Chanteclerc). I wanted some big vertical, so I was willing to drive anywhere for a deal, as long as it had big vertical, good challenge and within a 4hr drive from MTL. I didn't ski Tremblant much and It would probably not be in my top10 (2nd or 3rd fav. in Qc) in the East. Mind you I do like Gray Rocks and the retro Mt.Glen

Anonymous · May 25, 2003

My wife is in the insurance business and says that the reason that some ski areas must close by a certain date regardless of the snow amounts is because their insurance ends on a specific day. I skied at Waterville Valley on their last weekend skiing ungroomed boot high heavy spring snow on Gemma, Ciao, and True Grit. The conditions were excellent but it was their last weekend. I skied Loon on their last weekend and they had good coverage, but it was going to go fast with the warm weather that was coming up. I skied Bretton Woods the day after they had 8 or 9 inches of snow at the end of April. They stayed open until at least May 1 for the longest season for a resort in NH. At least I was able to take one last look at The Old Man of The Mountain that day for the last time, surrounded by snow and clear blue skies. Well, I am off to Tuck's. I am hoping that the rain will hold off until at least 5:00 P.M. If all goes well, I hope to take a run on Hillman's Highway this afternoon.

Kevin · May 25, 2003

I am the last person to want to pat killington on the back for a season well done, but I just thought that a 7 month long season of continuous skiing is impressive my ASC management standards for Killington. Late season skiing at Sugarloaf would be impractical but my point was just to give my opinion on an area that would be good for this purpose. I agree that having started to make snow on october 8th 2002 Killington should have opened sooner than they did, but compare there season to Loveland in Colorado October 17th-May5th and it is a long season!. I still champion upper cascade or downdraft with a midstaion chairlift on Killington peak as a better alternative to superstar, but this is a lost cause at this point. Having skied opening day on October 1st on upper cascade in 1992 I see the need for the return of practical one lift access for a high elevation ski trail to extend the season. Killingtons longest ski season was with the Double chair and the downdraft/cascade trails in 1983-84. This was my first season at Killington and having skied the area in late May the base depths on downdraft were tremendous. Killington did not make it to there closing day of July 4th because of unseasonable heavy rains late in june. I dont want to offend anyone by "praising Killington". I hate ASC management period!!!! My only other pick for a late season area would be Hunter Mtn with skiing on the F lift with access by the High speed quad but this would be an expensive proposition. Hunter has the population base and the snowmaking know how, but I think that they too are not interested in expanding there season.

Frankontour · May 25, 2003

Oct 25 - may 26. My first thought about this is : early closure. My second is : longer than last year with opening 12 days before. But for the opening, it's true that I was *surprised* to not see them open faster, after the first snowmaking on oct 8 (it was so fun to see the pics of skiers skiing on the grass + a tiny coverage of snow ! lol). <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2406.jpg" ALT="hmm...if it wasn't 4h from here... lol"> I don't know the elevation of Woodbury, but it's certainly not at 4000' high like the Glades. I understand it's not logistically easy to access this part of the mountain, but if it was correct for snowmaking at Woodbury on oct 23, it was probably correct for snowmaking at maximum near oct 15. But I admit the mid-station lift on Cascade was perfect for that and not the Glades. You must also consider that the US economy was in a very slow part in last october (and it's not necessary better actually) so it wasn't helping ASC at all... and it's somehow a "correct" season but with the new equipments, it's not impressive at all. For Canada, Joe, I'm sure if La Reserve or something like that was opening up to july 4, you would come here once, just to see that, after the K closure... just like I'll possibly drive 5h to Tenney this summer or in early october. Patrick, I admit I'm actually in the ages where you were willing to drive 4h just to ski... but almost nothing beats La Reserve anyway, in the East, so 1h15 is super ! And for the vertical drop, I know this is a real debate here. In New England, you don't have this debate as a little mountain, it's 1500' high. Here, a little is 500' high... little difference. We have 8 ski areas over 1500' in Quebec... so we have ±77 under it. I don't count, but there is about 35 ski areas over 1000' and most of the other ones are near 600-700' high. When I was young, I used to like more the big verticals, like Tremblant & all... but when they began to build many half mountain high speed quads, I've got used to ski about 1200' high for runs, unless 2100'. More and more, I was finding too long to ski down during over 2000' high and I began to appreciate more the 1000' high ski areas just like : Val St-Côme, La Reserve, Mt Garceau, Mt Glen, Mt Shefford, etc. In general, I don't really like the little ski areas, under 1000' but there is Alta... which is so much different of the other ski areas... and to be able to try all the interesting runs during a day, you must be able to do at least 40-45 runs. I can tell you there is 2x more interesting trails at Alta than at Tremblant and the off-piste skiing at the big T is really poor, compared to Alta. Anyway, this is my chart of favorite ski areas, updated at the end of the present season (not completely end) <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2407.jpg" ALT="Ranks of my ski areas"> About the insurances, it's true they cause us some big problems. I've even been asked this winter to not jump off a particular jump, cause it was only the ski school that had insurances for it... LOL I hope for you that the Hillman's will still be good (heh, bring a cam to send us pics please <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="

"> lol) About Loveland, I have some difficulties to understand them. It's almost always the first ski area to open in US (Except Timberline of course), but it closed this year with 80" of snowdepth and with snow up to july 4. Ok, there is A-basin just beside, but according to the crowds of A-basin actually, I think they could run at least 1-2 chairlifts few more weeks... And finally for Hunter, don't you think it's a little bit warm and not snowy in that place ? I know they're in the champions for Snowmaking, but with 15' less natural snow in a season than Killington, Imagine the amount of snow they must do, to equal the big K.

Killington 5/19&20/03

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