Killington closing day 5/11/04

and as tony can probably more accurately report, i believe K was down anywhere from 60 to 80 inches of natural for the year from their average.
 
and another thing, re: tony's c post from 5-13, i have a feeling that one of the reason why tony's old knees aren't bothered much by spring moguls is that i have a feeling the guy actually knows how to ski moguls the correct way.. just a guess
 
i still find it funny that joegm thinks that resorts have "man made" moguls <BR> <BR>yes, for competitions such as the bear mountain mogul challenge, moguls are seeded, they don't build the entire mogul by any means, rather then make small snowpiles then have people ski the trail who know how to ski, forming the larger moguls in the correct pattern. <BR> <BR>but during the season, every mogul you see on a mountain is mad by normal skier traffic, some are better than others, only because the skiers that ski on the trails are better, turning quicker, making moguls tighter and in better arranged lines. <BR> <BR>Your idea that resorts actually use groomers to make moguls instead of grooming slopes is kind of funny. <BR> <BR>BTW, the reason killington is grooming more is because the #1 complaint about killington from their customer surveys for the past few years was this: <BR> <BR>"too many bumps, need more groomed runs"
 
Here is the pic : <BR> <BR>This is 7 days after the closing day. <BR> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/3957.jpg" ALT="Killington 18 may 2004">
 
Not sure I'd put money on this thread reaching 140 posts, but it does go to show how strongly skiers feel about the outside edges of the season...and remember, we're just a small sampling of the skiing public! One of the best things about that thread last spring was all the folks that posted their pics of early/late skiing. Bring em on, and thanks for the pic from '00 Lftgly, looks great except for the two mooks in the foreground ! I'm gonna throw some accumulated thoughts out on points raised of late: <BR> <BR> I definitely do *not* think Kmart should close midweek in the spring. The main reason is that it would be unfair to midweek skiers, be they passholders or day ticket buyers (tho admittedly there are more of the former and, in the interest of full disclosure, I am one). Obviously such a move would require making midweek passes valid on weekends, but the fact remains that many ski midweek simply because that's when they are most able to do so. And please, enough of the old "there's no revenue since it's only passholders that are skiing then anyway". I have said it a million times and will continue to say it whenever this comes up (so pardon the virtual shouting): PASSHOLDERS *ARE* PAYING CUSTOMERS !!! We just pay up front, as early as August when I'm sure our cash comes in very handy. That's the deal- we don't show up on the daily ledger during the season BUT they have our $ to spend long before there even IS a season w/ a daily ledger! More on money matters large and small in a sec. <BR> <BR> As for other reasons suggested for midweek closing: I don't see midweek skiing as causing any significant "degradation" of the snowpack as a) midweek traffic isn't all that heavy, b) it can be argued that a little traffic actually helps maintain the surface (note: this principle does *not* extend to justify bulldozer "grooming"!) and, most importantly, c) here again the whole line of reasoning assumes that the weekend is the only valid focus. As a practical matter I'm not sure that closing midweek would save them a whole lot of dough since they would still need to keep the already minimal facilities, employees, etc on line. Also, remember that in a given week there could very easily be more people there for a sunny Thursday than a rainy Saturday. As for closing due to weather, yes there are certainly days when the radar shows there will be unambiguously heavy rain all day and it makes little sense to open, and in fact they made that very call for Mt Snow on at least one day this spring, but making a daily call on account of weather could be a slippery slope (so to speak) as it might become tempting for them to push the panic button at the slightest provocation. I've skied many great days that started out rainy and cleared, or ones that had sun mixed w/ spot showers (which could be quite refreshing actually!). If one adds in questions like whether they should open if, say, unseasonably low temps promise a day of rock hard bumps, then suddenly there are hairs to be split all over the place. Shortening the midweek daily hours of operation could be an option, maybe opening at 11am or noon as the conditions often aren't optimal until later in the day anyway, but again the savings would be relatively small and I'm sure there are many locals that like to get their turns in the morning. <BR> <BR> I'll also reluctantly say that, if I had to choose, I would trade the super-early openings for a much later closing (I'm speaking in the abstract of course, since at this point we've been robbed of both). It probably costs them more to gear up early (and risk a temporary shutdown) than to simply continue an existing operation and IMO the quality of skiing and weather is 10x better in the spring....though I know that, in one of those cruel twists, they get a lot more people there for the opening weeks than the closing. It IS kind of amusing to me that they partly justified waiting to open the last couple of years by bad mouthing the old opening-days conditions (remember last Nov's classic K brag of "No skimpish patch of almost-snow"?), when they'd (rightly!) raved about their opening snowmaking efforts for all those years ! <BR> <BR> As regards this supposed public call for more grooming, I question it in general (again we're a sampling of skiers and I don't see *any* outcry here) but one thing for sure is that there's absolutely no way there was a huge stink made over Superstar in May. Sure, give people a variety of ways down (flats AND bumps) throughout the season, but come the end **leave Superstar the $%^& alone**! Anything else at that point could *only* have the intent of a hastened melt. <BR> <BR> The points about prices were well taken IMO. It's true that the pass price, esp for the midweek, went down significantly in recent years and in hindsight it may have been because they knew they were going to be trimming the season. Some of us passholders do ski enough days to bring our per-day cost very low, though I know there are also some that don't use the pass nearly as much as they thought they would and thus pay closer to list price, maybe even more, per day. Still, I for one would also be glad to pay a bit more for my pass (2X seems a bit much, but maybe somewhere in the middle) IF the early/late season parameters go back to what they were. I also agree that the day rate does not need to significantly drop in the spring, as the loss of terrain is balanced by the uniqueness of the spring experience. I'm not saying that late spring tix should stay at full mid-season rate but it could probably be a little higher than it has been. <BR> <BR> Having said all that, in the end IMO all these detailed economics of early/late season are a bit of a red herring. One thing that has seemed pretty obvious all along, but was driven home by that previously referenced news article, is that ASC's money problems are *far* greater than could ever be simply blamed on an extra week or three of skiing on either end of the season!! It has little to do with spinning a single lift and everything to do with real estate speculation, grand summit hotels, golden parachutes, etc. It may be coincidence that it was only a few days after the season got shut down that we read of the big land-for-debt swap, but I'll bet they've been trying to show their corporate overlords just how frugal they can be. I know skier visits are down in general but it's sure a helluva lot easier to blame the daily ledgers in May than the more complicated business decisions that caused the problems in the first place. The problem is that by slashing the skiing for the most dedicated core they're dissipating what made them unique...and (uncharacteristic optimism) could again. There are some losses/gains that just don't show up on the daily books.
 
Geez, I only halfway down this message (been to busy to keep tract to the annual (sight) classic Killington discussion. <BR> <BR>My two cents from what I was able to read now. <BR> <BR>Midweek: <BR>Yes, they should concentrate on weekends and close midweeks. However, this is not the best considering staff and passholders. But anything is better than closing to early. <BR> <BR>Knees and back hurt in moguls and grooming: <BR>To answer to joegm, When I was stating that my back and knees hurt if I ski all day in moguls in the Winter (hard pack), I was talking about me. I never complained about the Spring variety you would find on Superstar in May and June (when possible). <BR> <BR>I agreed 100% that Superstar should NOT be groomed late in the season. The average tourist will not be attracted to K in May regardless of conditions. <BR> <BR>As for my knees and back, you are taking to someone who has skiied for close to 35 years (started skiing at 4), it might be technique, but mind you, my knees (and back sometimes) when I ski gates for fun and ... yes, sometimes groomed runs. For me, knees and back are more related to past injuries than simply skiing. <BR> <BR>Where did they go wrong? <BR> <BR>Laught as you may, but I believe that putting 100% energy into Superstar was I mistake (I said it at the time) in my mind. The potential, energy and cost involved in making it happened on Superstar are very important. Early and Late Season skiing at K was better serve when it happened on Cascade/Downdraft with the old K peak Double with the mid-station loading. The energy and cost was not as great. They didn't need to blow 40ft of snow glacier to make into June.
 
Killington season snowfall was 215 vs. average of 250. 96 of the 215 was in December. <BR> <BR>Taos closes first weekend in April on a fixed schedule. This may be due to agreement with Forest Service, and/or more likely it's like nearly every other destination resort with no local population base: there's no business in April. Telluride was extemely empty on Monday March 29 with scheduled closing April 4. <BR> <BR>With regard to conditions, Taos is extremely skewed to favor late season due to steep north facing terrain at high altitude. The low water content snow and rocky terrain make the early season tough for them, and the "rotating expert runs" strategy is an intelligent way for them to offer some expert skiing without trashing the terrain when it's vulnerable. <BR> <BR>I do not consider myself a particularly proficient bump skier. I will always seek out the "smooth and steep" with the best snow if I can find it. Bump skiing works for me if the combination of steepness, spacing and soft snow surface is right. I definitely had some paranoia going into the March 2003 Vermont trip, but Stowe and MRG had "my spring conditions" and I was very comfortable, as I was with Superstar in late April 1990. That said, I wasn't even close to keeping up with Eric Friedman (MRG marketing director) or the average MRG midweek skier (many of them on teles!) in the moguls. And in the cooler temps at Jay I did exactly one bump run and skied it like crap. Perhaps my knees are not bothered by moguls because I don't ski that many of them. <BR> <BR>I should have said, and I think it should be automatic, that when an area starts closing midweek the midweek passes should be good on the weekends from then on. <BR> <BR>I agree completely, as stated last year, that the late closings are much more important than the early openings. <BR> <BR>Patrick's post implies that it would be more efficient to use the Glades and Canyon Chair terrain for late season and not have to maintain snow to the bottom. As I also mentioned before, this would not be difficult using the K1 Gondola as a transport lift, with a cheap and simple connection at the top. <BR> <BR>With regard to economics, I always thought business units were supposed to be evaluated on their own. Trimming Killington's season (and damaging its cachet and brand name reputation) in order to meet debt service on other areas' real estate and infrastructure is NOT a sound business practice.
 
Actually, if it implies more than one lift, it wouldn't really work (ie. K experiences with the truck for early season is a prime example). <BR> <BR>What I was saying was that the removal of the Killington Peak double (with it's convenient midstation was ideal)(more or less where the K1 Gondola is now). Only one lift which could download from the top, sure it wasn't top-to-bottom late in the season, but they were able to make it into June without making tons of snow (ie. Superstar). <BR> <BR>I have to go (still at work), but check out the pics from the late May/June trip I posted in the discussion from last spring. Some from the skiing on K Peak in May 1984-85 pics (the date is in the title), don't think I posted some from 1986 or 1987. There also some from June 1992 and 1997 on Superstar.
 
Extending the Glades triple (with perhaps an unloading station at its current top location) to a point where one could ski (or walk a short distance on flat ground) to the top of K1 is the logical answer. There's a restaurant at the top of K1 already. <BR> <BR>This is not rocket science. It's standard operating procedure in Europe and de facto operating procedure for many skiers at Whistler and some other western areas. <BR> <BR>Glades gives Killington its safest early season terrain. Canyon gives it the north facing sheltered steep runs for late season.
 
OK I have been quiet long enough. Yes it would cost a lot of money to extend the glades triple and run the K1 gondola in the early and late season. BUT here is the real question why not. <BR> <BR>Sure they might lose some money in the early and late season, but they would be the only ones in the east (America) with very very late season skiable terrain. I'm sure if they made snow off of the glades triple like they used to off of superstar and they continued through April and may when temps dropped below 30 degrees. They could keep those trails open until late June and possible even the 4th of July. They could also open them most years by late September off and on, and then continuously by mid October. This would leave only one month of no skiing in the east. <BR> <BR>This means that Killington could advertise them selves as an 11 month skiable resort. I am sure they could get some New England race teams and whatnot to train there or college teams or whoever. But there would definitely be a market for that type of experience. <BR> <BR>Today as wee speak it is going to get below freezing on the summit of Killington tonight. That means they could lay fresh snow for at least 3 or 4 hours in mid may. Imagine if they made snow at every opportunity they had. It would not be hard. <BR> <BR>Killington was an ideal place to do this. But it seems like they will no longer conform to the standards of the advanced skiing public. <BR> <BR>My real question is who while? When will some other ski area (hopefully privately owned so we don’t have all that marketing hubbub) step up to the plate and create a high elevation spring and fall summer skiing experience. I am positive that it can be done. <BR> <BR>Any answers thoughts? <BR> <BR>Porter
 
anonymous, i think most people on this site have enough common sense to realize what i mean when i say, man made moguls... perhaps i was just dreaming when my buddy and i rode with the groomer at loon on feb 1st and " seeded ", the moguls on lower rumrunner... what is your point?. and where do you get your information that the number one complaint about K was "too many bumps" and " need more groomed runs ".. cite the source, with a name and a date, otherwise you are a fraud... what do you just make this stuff up as you go?. and as usual you don't address, in any way at all, the issues at hand... on a different topic, maybe you can try and answer these 2 questions... 1)would it be ok to only groom out a trail that will used as a race course only on the day of the actual race and all other times just leave it so that ruts and bumps and all other terrain variations form on it? 2) why do you hate bumps so much? <BR> porter, it won't happen man.. look at the fiasco with tenny... i think the only chance for new england would be some sort of indoor snow dome and that's a stretch too... there are just not enough dedicated skiers in this part of the country... and the ones that have that extra ability to be pro or an olympian end up going west. there certainly should be enough of a market though, for k to justify making enough snow to ski SS/ or rime/ or whatever trail is deemed the most viable, till the end of may, in all but the worst weather years
 
You people are overlooking a big factor in using the K1 Gondola for late season skiing. <BR> <BR>1) The gondola is much more complex than the Superstar lift, is longer, and costs more to operate & maintain (machinery costs) <BR> <BR>2) The gondola requires 2-3 employees at the base and 2-3 employees at the top to operate. Add the employees to run the canyon quad (2) or glades triple (2) (i don't know which one you want), and you are at a minimum of 6 employees every day, versus 2 with superstar (1 top, 1 bottom) <BR> <BR>joe, i don't hate moguls, i just can't see the validity of your argument that groomers need to groom less and make more mogul runs, when the majority of the present ski population want nothing but groomed runs. <BR> <BR>My "source" is valid, and it is not only from customers, but higher level managment at killington, they finally figured out why they were losing so much market share to okemo (well, one of the reasons), and that was the concensus among managers.
 
OK next idea. <BR> <BR>How about a ski hill that could keep snow 11 months out of the year but was car serviced. You would let the person drive their car to the top and then charge them per run. Yes they would have to hike but they would be able to ski man made snow 11 months of the year. Say 2 dollars a run. All you would have to do is make snow on it whenever possible. Say 400 feet of vertical. <BR> <BR>Take burke mtn for example. Fairly far north. Not to much snowmaking. But they have a road to the top. Here is a link for an ariel picture in the beginning of may. Yes they had an above average april, but a below average year. They dont have a lot of snowmaking right now, but imagine if they did. You could drive to the top, ski down for a couple of bucks a run and get your fix even in may or june and sept. <BR><A HREF="http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=11&x=675&y=12348&z=19&w=1" TARGET="_top">http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=11&x=675&y=12348&z=19&w=1</A> <BR> <BR>any thoughts on this one
 
I guess I'm a little late in this post, but here are photos of Killington on May 11, 2002. <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.pbase.com/michaeltokyo/killington_may_11_2002" TARGET="_top">http://www.pbase.com/michaeltokyo/killington_may_11_2002</A>
 
anonymous, you don't read my posts very carefully... i consistently advocate 1 black run and 1 blue run of man made/ seeded/ maintained bumps that are easily accessed off of a lift. why is that too much to ask for... everyone else gets taken care of. why do bumpers get thrown under the bus so easily by people like you... especially at K with it's " 200 plus runs "...and again, you choose not to answer the questions posed, so i don't expect you will answer this one... name the names of your sources... and losing customers to okemo? what the hell are you talking about.. okemo started seeding their bumps this year like they never did before.. i posted about this 2 months ago and named names ( evan dybvig !!!???? ) you need to name names or you have no credibilty on the issue, although i agree with you on the issue of the k1 being used for early and late season access
 
salida, i give you an a for effort w/ the car idea . while innovative, i don't know if i would be able to support it because of green reasons.. believe me i'm as conservative/republican as they get .. but i'd rather limit the amount of fumes in the north country if you know what i mean... i think a cheap j bar or t bar lift accessing terrrain would be better... just like the poma a burke... these lifts are under rated anyways the way i see it...but then again, i really don't have a problem with the current set up at k... i like having the SS to plop my ass down on for 5 minutes of rest... if they just made more snow and stopped the foolish policy of grooming it after april 20th, marketed things a lot better and charged more money for the midweek passes and didn't cut the daily ticket rate so much , i think they could ski through may with decent coverage and justify their outlays
 
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