Killington closing day 5/11/04

joe, sorry, i cannot name who my contacts are. Take it for what its worth, or don't. <BR> <BR>I agree, car would be a pollution nightmare. <BR> <BR>The only problem with t-bars and j-bars is what many of you have been arguing about all along, grooming, as the track would need to be groomed, which inevitably hastens the degradation of the snowpack. T-bar and j-bar tracks also tend to melt away quickly when in use above freezing.
 
I just want to add my two cents for what it's worth: <BR> <BR>I may not ski as often as some of you guys, but in the past (before married life) I did ski Killington from October 1st - June 5th, and really enjoyed both ends of the spectrum season. <BR>ASC is in deep financial doo doo as we all know, and the stockholders/investors would NOT look very kindly on snowmaking in September or May, because they would look at it as wastefull and supporting only a very narrow market of hard core skiers, that are not present in sufficient numbers to pay the bills so to speak. I agree that the decision to take out the old Killington double in 1998 was a big hit to their early/late season marketing ability, but thats done with already. Most of my skiing at Killington was done in October (20-25 days) so I will really miss the chance to ski with full foliage, and especially introduce that awesome experience with my son. I do not know how, but SKI managed to have very long seasons, and NEVER ran in the red for the 25+ year history of the Shelburne corp. What is ASC doing wrong? I really hope that indoor skiing will become a reality, my uncle visited in April from Germany and showed me the many indoor skiing complexes that exist in europe. This will never equal skiing on a real mountain, but it is better that cutting the grass in August!! I really worry about ASC going under, especially as far as the fate of Sugarloaf is concerned. I now that not many ski there, but what a mountain. By the way according to the underground chat, people were still skiing on Sluice last weekend with good cover, so some snow still remains in the east.
 
I find the idea of Salida quite interesting ! Cars running in summer to carry the skiers up ! Actually, as you heard me say 1000x, La Réserve don't do a lot of snowmaking... and the Loup-Garou have actually more snow than the Superstar. It's not a trail very accessible for a dedicated lift unfortunately, but it would be quite easy with a "bus" as there is a road just near it. The whole middle part of the Loup-Garou has about 350' feet high. Filling it with snow (let's say 40' on top and just 30' in the deep canyon part and it would be skiable almost all summer long, as the sun doesn't hit too much this place. + it wouldn't be visible that there is so much snow in the canyon so it wouldn't look ugly or weird. <BR> <BR>For some people (like anonymous), it looks silly to do that. I understand them quite easily, there is no demand for that actually. <BR> <BR>But there is a little thing..... at the beginning of the season, on zoneski, I was considerated like a sick guy because I was skiing in june, hiking for some turns. Last sunday, we were 12 zoneskiers on the slopes and everyone of them <B>really</B> enjoyed the feeling of skiing in summer like that. It was tough to convince people at first, but I got 1... and 2... and after, it went that many people on the website are now willing to hike for turns in late season and are attempting to ski as long as possible. <BR> <BR>If everyone of us were trying to convince other people about summer skiing fun, there would be certainly someone that would invest to satisfy us. Actually, if we're just a couple of people complaining about the early end of season at Killington, nobody will never listen us. But if there is some thousands of people hiking for turns in the mountain, after the season, be sure that an investor will see a real opportunity to make some $$ and will satisfy us !
 
anonymous' track issue could be eliminated with carpets as far as the j or t bars.... still won't answer the bump questions though, i see <BR>re: frank's assessment of summer/warm temp skiing... snow conditions and obvious elevation issues aside... i'll be going to whistler for the 4th year coming up... the summer ski scene out there is in a word, unreal...i too, like frank was, am considered by many peers to be some sort of alien dropped from another galaxy for skiing in warm weather...if people only knew, which they don't , what it is like and what it could be like, then i think there would probably be enough demand for a company to give it a shot in the east through june...i've actually gotten to the point where i look forward to the summer in backcomb as much as i do to the winter season. it's that much fun out there... it could never be replicated on the same scale here, obvoiusly, but i would like to think that something could be done if the demand was there
 
Joegm: <BR> <BR>Have you been to Timberline Lodge in the summer? I skied there in the summer for 5 years, and there is more vertical than at Blackcomb. I have not skied blackcomb in the summer, but the vertical is only about 700' on the glacier compared to about 1500' on the Palmer snowfield, plus the public can ski all day with high speed quad chairlifts. My brother is heading out to Whistler this weekend, can't wait to see the pictures.
 
The marginal cost of running the transport lift is not that big a deal if you have some paying customers. Magic Mile is a transport lift at Timberline. Blackcomb requires 3 transport lifts plus a bus to get to Horstman Glacier in summer. <BR> <BR>Mt. Baldy's lower chair is basically a transport lift for for 90% of its skier traffic, and it ran until June 7 in El Nino 1998 for upper mountain snow. And this is a shoestring operation that wouldn't be open with negative cash flow. There are other mom-and-pop areas that will open on short notice with unexpected natural snow if they will sell enough marginal tickets to cover the modest cost of employees and running lifts. <BR> <BR>The real cost issue with Killington is the upfront stockpile snowmaking. If they make the same amount of "extra" snow on Glades/Canyon terrain as they did on Superstar, how many more open weekends do they get on both ends of the season? That's what should drive the "which terrain do we use early and late" decision. But it's a moot point if the upfront snowmaking cost is so high that they won't make "extra" snow anywhere to extend the season.
 
Tony said: <BR> <BR>The real cost issue with Killington is the upfront stockpile snowmaking. If they make the same amount of "extra" snow on Glades/Canyon terrain as they did on Superstar, how many more open weekends do they get on both ends of the season? That's what should drive the "which terrain do we use early and late" decision. But it's a moot point if the upfront snowmaking cost is so high that they won't make "extra" snow anywhere to extend the season. <BR>___________________________________________ <BR> <BR> <BR>I agree 100% with the last point about the fact that they will not make the extra snow PLUS I would be very surprise if they would change there early-late opening strategy. This Fall was a prime example that they were not going open until the skier could get to the bottom without transportation (lift or truck). <BR> <BR>About how many weekends could be extended with the skiing would be at Glades/Canyon area? Probably more than Superstar when all things being equal (ie. snowmaking, etc.). I mentioned this last Spring neither in the K 140 messages discussion or when we were talking about where would be the best place/trail for late season skiing, Killington made into June a few times prior to late season skiing on Superstar. It took them a few years before be able to make to June again with Superstar, but for this they had to blow 30-40ft of snow on Superstar. Yes, Cascades/Downdraft had alot of snowmaking, but they never stockpiled that much plus the snowmaking equipment in the mid-80 could not be compared to what they have along Superstar. <BR> <BR>Less than 80 messages to go to reach 140... <BR>One footnote on this comment, I was on Parental Leave last year so I could find more time to contribute to FTO.
 
I think that the only way to extend the season at Killington is for ASC to have outside competition for the longest ski season in the east. Killington only stayed open until May 11th in order to beat out Mt St Saveur and Bretton Woods. <BR>According to my brother who skied at St Saveur on closing weekend, there was still top to bottom coverage with no walking, so they seem to be the most likely competition for Killington. This way it would be just like the old days of Killington vs Sunday River, even though most times the early season skiing was plain garbage. I think(I hope that I am wrong) that the days of lift serviced skinng in June at Killington are over.
 
It just isn't profitable. You all speak like they "owe" you something. Trust me, I severely doubt any of you would drop ten dollars a day into a river just to brag that you did it. Its the same thing with Killington, although now there is a need for cost control, hence eliminating money losing operations, such as the late season ski operation.
 
Is early season skiing profitable? At least the way Killington used to open up in early October. If management does not want to open up until they are certain that they can stay open, we will be looking at a much shorter ski season. I do not think that Killington or ASC owes me anything, except for focusing on what pays the bills, such as upkept infrastructure, good snow management and honest reporting of snow conditions, all of which are currently lacking at ASC, at least from what I can see at Sugarloaf. Frankly I will not ski at Killington anymore until, either new owners come along to the rescue, or god willing ASC comes out of its financial tailspin.
 
So a flat-out admission that you're "eliminating the late season ski operation"? Far cry from last weeks claims of grooming to attract more skiers to same (not that anyone was buying it). <BR> <BR> If K "owes" anything to anyone it's to themselves, not us. A corporation that defaulted on close to $100 million isn't gonna solve their problems by cutting a couple of weeks of bare-bones skiing, they're just gonna ruin their hard fought and well deserved reputation as a leader. There are money losing and gaining days throughout the season, it's the 'big picture' view that's missing. Classic corporate myopia. <BR> <BR>Kmart is just another ski area now.
 
Kevin, exactly. Not losing money and wasting it on inefficient snowmaking for spring skiing will allow better overall operation of the mountain.
 
Effectively, Killington had a season of 1 day longer than St-Sauveur this year and about 6-7 more than Bretton Woods if I don't mistake. <BR> <BR>I skied St-Sauveur 3 days after the closure and it was clear that they did only closed that late to beat Mont Sainte-Anne for the latest closure in Quebec, as they were not open on sunday may 2 cause of rain, while MSA was open near Quebec City. It was effectively top to bottom, but very narrow on the top of the mountain and the last pitch only had 4 groomers wide. Here is a pic of the trail 3 days after closure. (we see about 60% of the lenght of the trail) Of course there was no bare spots on the lower section on the closing day but it was certainly becoming thinner... <BR> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/3960.jpg" ALT="MSS may 12"> <BR> <BR>I must say the middle section still had a very big coverage, though. Something like 8 feet high. <BR> <BR>I wonder how much people were on the mountain on that day, while we were trying to find some decent snow everywhere near Quebec city. (we finally ended at Stoneham) <BR> <BR>Anyway, actually I guess it's not profitable, but I'm sure that it could become profitable if people would know that it was possible to ski on some very good conditions without bare spots in may... and june <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)">
 
frank, summer is summer for a reason, although skiing is great, most people use the summer months for summer activities, which cannot be done in the winter. <BR> <BR>Boating, camping, hiking, biking, outdoor sports, etc. <BR> <BR>Skiing is one of the few outdoor activities which can be done in the winter. I disagree that more people would ski if there were good june conditions.
 
Not all snowmaking for late season skiing is unprofitable. Sugarloaf for the most part is not at its prime until late in the season. If there was not enough snowmaking this year, skiing there would have been quite poor, not that it was great this year. By concentrating snowmaking on Sluice,Spillway,Hayburner,Kings Landing and Skidder, the late season skiing was much more enjoyable, than freezing my @## off in January with little base on most of the mountain. What first attracted me to Killington and kept my attention, was SKI's comitment to skiing and snowmaking WHENEVER possible. This was good not only for profits but good for PR as well. Look at Woodbury in CT opening up before Killington on November 9th, do you think that was profitable? <BR>Sometimes you have to satisfy your customer base even at the sake of profit. SKI opened first and closed last with Killington and the Shelburne Corp NEVER lost money annually for more than 25 years. Tradition runs strong and Killington lost that, management is only fooling themselves.
 
Not MOST people, but enough to make it profitable, anonymous. <BR> <BR>You know, if I was able to convince 9 normal skiers to hike for turns on 800' long last weekend, while most of them had never hiked for turns, I think that ski areas could be able, with a correct marketing, to attract enough skiers to make it profitable up to may. <BR> <BR>You know what, Killington's marketing is absolutely ridiculous, just like the St-Sauveur's one, about skiing in may. They didn't change their "pic of the day" on their website since april 27. To know how the conditions were, we had to check on http://www.basinski.com (great job, Rick ! Thanks). At St-Sauveur, it was even worst, we had to go there by ourselves, although at least the days of operations, there was some pics, but it was just counting for the sunday, as people were seeing the pics of saturday. No ads on radio, no ads on TV, with decent marketing, these mountains could have 10x more people on this time of the year, especially if normal people knew that the conditions are NICE at the end of the year.
 
Frank: <BR> <BR>I think what you are doing by hiking to ski a small area of snow is neat, not much different than people who play golf in January, or go boating in March. I really wanted to ski at Killington this May, but I had a business trip in Toronto on May 1-2nd, and after that there was already walking on Superstar in early May!! I wanted to go with my brother, but he did not want to drive so far to pay $30 and walk as well, when he could ski for $10 at St Saveur with no walking. <BR>Killington is not hurting its profit margin greatly by staying open into May/June, it's only hurting the mountains hard earned(not by ASC) prestige of having the longest season in the east. <BR> <BR>By the way I do not know if this information on Killington has been posted: <BR> <BR>1958 season (first year of operation) open/close: <BR> <BR>12/13/58 - 4/16/59 <BR> <BR>Revenue for December $1,278.00 <BR> January $2,860.15 <BR> February $10,000.00 <BR> <BR>Total gross receipts for 58/59 were $42,847.67 <BR> <BR>The first May 1st slalom was held on May 1st 1961, and was run on the Catwalk trail on Killington Peak!! <BR> <BR>1961-62 season open/close: <BR> <BR>12/02/61 - 4/30/62 <BR> <BR>This information comes from a book that I have about Killington.
 
Anonymous writes, "...summer is summer for a reason, although skiing is great, most people use the summer months for summer activities, which cannot be done in the winter...", and of course, he is right. <BR> <BR>If there were always snow on the ground, when would we find time for brushing glades and trails? Tuckerbrook, here I come! <BR> <BR>The next few months of summer activities should see numerous ski area improvements. What better time of year to replace those old chairlifts! <BR> <BR>And I <I>never</I> have time to re-glue my climbing skins during ski season...
 
frank, no offense, but 9 people paying $40 per day is $500, this is ballpark, but it costs between $1,000 and $3,000 per HOUR to run the snowmaking system on superstar, add it up, and there is no way it is profitable, not even close.
 
Anonymous i believe what frank is trying say is that if he can convince 9 of his friends to go ski on a rather small patch of dirty snow which they have to hike to get to, theres a good chance that a heck of a lot more people would be willing to go out and ski in the summer than you may think. If you had a trail with relatively good cover and a lift using franks example if one person goes and skis and convinces 9 people to come with them the numbers could simply multiply. I don't think his point was that only 9 people would ski but more that there is a market for summer skiing if people are simply aware of it.
 
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