Killington closing day 5/11/04

the potential revenues still don't outweight the costs, even if you filled every chair with 4 people on superstar for a month the revenues wouldn't justify the costs. <BR> <BR>You all don't understand how much snowmaking costs. $40-50K per NIGHT. Do the math, it just don't work.
 
The real fact is that ASC is going down like the Titanic, and cutting the season back a few weeks is putting a finger into a huge hole. As stated before the former owners of Killington, SKI corp had solid profits(no loss) for the 20+ years that information is available. Also you cannot look at just the skiing alone for income, but also the lodging, use of foodservice facilites, and golf and ski packages as sources for additional income. Whenever I used to go up in May, we stayed for a weekend at a Killington property, and took advanatage of the golf/ski packages. Also there used to be alot more than 9 people on Superstar in the 90's, more like 200-300 people per day. The pr impact of actually staying open over the span of 8 months, pays for itself in the end. So can we expect better conditions and improvements to ASC infrastructure now that they saved money on a shorter season?? I'm not holding my breath on that one.
 
Ah, just think if the marketing dept ever got word out of the North Country that Spring conditions are good! Ski in a t-shirt, leave your long johns and dace mask at home, don't forget the sun screen! Oh yeah, right, why would anybody want to do snow sports when it's warm; they're just for mid-winter when you can't do anything else, right, anonymous? <BR> <BR>The marketing genius of Killington was to extend the ski season so it began immediately after foliage season, and overlapped golf & bike & hike season in the Spring; eliminating the two "mud seasons" that kill tourism for months in most Northern New England Ski Towns every year. <BR> <BR>As soon as the foliage drops, all the B&Bs and restaurants around here shorten their hours & days of operation, layoff the kitchen & waitstaff, and wait for "the holidays" to begin at (or after) Thanksgiving. Then about Easter, they all shut down again, until at least Mothers Day, and most wait until Memorial Day to re-open. Because every Flatlander thinks there's nothing to do in the North Country in late Fall or Spring. The hiking & bike trails are too muddy, the greens haven't dried out, might as well stay down South. <BR> <BR>Do the stupid math, and No, there is not enough direct ticket revenue to offset the direct labor & utilities expense of early Ski season opening & late Ski season closing. <BR> <BR>But Killington figured out that it fills hotel rooms, fills dining rooms, generates retail sales in an otherwise flat time of year. And it fosters the image of a "4 season destination resort", which generates real estate sales, and increased season ski ticket sales, day skier visits, and during the three months of bad skiing, increases greens fees, bike trail fees, etc. <BR> <BR>Don't tell me, I know, that was the old SKI Killington marketing model. These days, it's a different corporation, and ASC has probably given up filling those rooms at off-season rates in the Grand Summit Hotels, and probably cut back the restaurant hours, etc. The real estate ASC hoped to capitalize on has been sold to pay off their debt. No point anymore in luring second home buyers to a 4-season destination resort with the longest ski season in the East, if some Texas holding company is going to reap the profits. Might as well throw money in the river. <BR> <BR>Bretton Woods is now taking the old SKI marketing approach. I'm sure they are "throwing money in the river" as far as the balance sheet on early- and late-season ski operations. I doubt the two Cog Railway trains each weekend in late Fall and Spring are generating enough ticket revenue to pay for the coal the engines burn. Nor will the Cog Railway Ski Train to Waumbek Tank turn an operating profit. But they are filling hotel rooms at the Mount Washington, Bretton Arms, and their motel. They're filling the dining rooms at their hotels, and Fabyans. They're generating sales at their gift shops, and greens fees on their golf course. <BR> <BR>Hey, BW certainly doesn't have the terrain of Killington Peak, or even of the NH 4000 footers (Cannon, Wildcat, Waterville), but they are generating year-round tourism without a cataclismic shutdown twice a year "between seasons". So far, it's working for them. And it works for me, because it means a ski area is spinning a lift early in November and late in May. <BR> <BR>CD said it, "Kmart is just another ski area now", and I don't think I'll miss it. If they aren't going to open earlier, and stay open later, than any other ski area, then I'm probably not going to be skiing at Killington much, if ever. I'll either be hiking for the best turns on Mt Washington, or resting up for the next hike by riding the BW quad.
 
anonymous seemingly never fails to come up with 1) contradicting claims in his posts that make no sense, 2) statements in his post that he makes out to be factual and having basis of facts , when in fact they have none... lets go to the written record: <BR> post date: wed , may 12, 11:29 am- anonymous states - " nobody skis bumps anymore, grooming brought out the more mainstream skier enabling them to make some money on their last few days " <BR>actually they had their slowest spring for ticket sales ever... <BR>and then we get <BR>post date- sat , may 22-12:29pm " there is no way it is profitable, not even close <BR>and then even more <BR>post date- sat may 22 3:02pm- " the potential revenues still don't outweigh the costs...do the math, it just don't work " <BR>and then this little pearl from the A man: <BR> " summer is summer.. although skiing is great, most people use the summer months for summer activities " , <BR>i guess all those summer ice hockey leagues and camps here in the north east are really just some jedi mind trick being played on everyone... and those nhl playoffs that are on tv through june... a figment of the imagination <BR>and finally the whipped cream and cherry on top <BR>" you all speak like they owe you something " <BR>uh no, not really... that has nothing to do with it... before killington became saddled with carrying debt for other bad investments by leslie b otten, they looked at the margins differently... the A man looks at the margins in a way, that in theory, could justify operating from dec 23rd to march 15th, and it clearly was not looked at that simply in the past. it's one view of the accounting. one can argue it's the proper view based on their current situation, but they were not put into the current situation because they were making 25 feet on snow on ss and spinning through may... they were put into it by bad management and bad speculating and skyrocketing insurance rates caused by lawsuit bringing skiers. yet somehow , the a man puts the blame on the spring skiers... A man,how, specifically, by not spending money on stockpiling snowmaking, will this allow for better operation of the mountian? perhaps they can take the money and buy even more grooming machines and cats to lay down some nice carpet for you to ski on during your 12 week season... or maybe they could take that money and plow it into the golf course for the " summer " activity period? sounds like a plan, man . i think the A man is actually les rotten incognito, trying to justify his treachery from a few years ago. this guy is unbelieveable
 
kevin, i have not been to timberline... i have heard about it and it sounds pretty good, but it sounds a little more geared to racing than freestyle... blackcomb has some racing but i would say about 60% of it is freestyle... between all the camps there are about 20 mogul lanes available, a couple of absorption tanks, 5 or 6 medium tables, 3 monster money booters, couple of hips and spines and many rails and smaller hits and 2 pipes... and of course, some flat lanes... the extra vert would be nice, but the t bars at horstman are so fast, my buddy's and i are usually cooked by the time the glaicer starts to empty out around 3pm... plus the village of whistler is on a level i have not really seen anywhere in terms of asthetics... and to be honest with you, the amount of very attractive females running around the place is an incentive in and of itself...there's nothing finer than a good lokking, bump skiing babe.
 
I have a few things to add to this great conversation. <BR> <BR>Anonymous makes some valid points. Snowmaking cost a fortune (you're not the only one that knows the cost of snowmaking). Stockpilling 40ft of snow might not make any economic and environmental sense and the cost of running K1-Gondola and a second lift for early/late season is also not cheap. HOWEVER the way Killington has operated the area in the last decade is not really feasible either. I don't want to repeat this again, but Killington was able to extend it seasons from October to June without stockpilling a mountain of snow on Killington Peak in the 80s. I am pretty sure that running the double (without counting the snowmaking comparison) onto Cascade was much more economically than having the Superstar Quad. <BR> <BR>Anonymous said "You speak as if they owe you something". Personally, they don't owe me anything HOWEVER they do owe something to the people that puts money into buying condos in the area, season passes, etc. if they do not live up to there own hype. Most of the stuff that comes out of the marketing dept boast of the longest season, bla bla <BR>bla, Skiing from October to Memorial Day (sometimes into June)!!! Some People who have skiied K for years and invested in the region expect the same commitment to skiing than the past, it not happening. K-mart should give the straight goods or SHUT UP!!!! <BR> <BR>I agree with Kevin, CD and Lftgly that K is just another area now. Personally (i checked), I haven't set skis at K since Spring 2000. I didn't stop going to Killington because I was pissed off, but simply because it was worth it any more for closing just one or two weeks later than my last ski day and paying a huge price for a lift ticket, walking required and driving 3.5 hours from Montreal (the exchange rate din't help either). I have skied Killington every Spring (and most Fall) since May20-23 1984 to May 2000, 16 out of 17 years for a total of 44 days. Killington is my third most visited ski area since I started keeping stats in 1981-82. Most of this skiing was done in May and June when everything else was closed. By shaving off the marging of the season, they have lost this skier. I have been living in Ottawa since 1995 (400 miles from Killington) and Montreal before that (187 miles). How many skier have Killington lost this way, they lost part of their 'soul' also. <BR> <BR>I am not sure if I agree with the statement about them waiting to beat Mont St.Sauveur for the longest season by 1 day, if that is the case...K-mart are really depressing!!! The mighty K has fallen, will they be a new king??? <BR> <BR>Good night from Patrick <BR>June 1st skier every year from 1992 to 1997 and participant in the June 1st Fun Slalom 1993 (rain and cold) to 1997 (hot, foggy and rain?)
 
Ahh the June 1st 1997 slalom, what a bucketfull of rain that race was run in, I could not see @#$% <BR>with the heavy rain and fog, but, no walking!! <BR>I am glad that I skied at least one June 1st slalom, and to be honest, I will miss the experience and the chance to introduce my son to such a long season. My brother is out to ski this whole year continuosly, and skied Mt Batchelor yesterday, and will be at Timberline today(lucky guy) He said that the weather was not great at Batchelor yesterday with snow and fog, but the skiing was decent. <BR> <BR>Joegm: <BR> <BR>I have not skied at Timberline since 1999, but they do maintain a mogul lane on skiers left. They did have some terrain features, plus the public can ski the whole morning in one lane, not just after 12:00pm. Perhaps you should check it out if you can visit from Blackomb.
 
Lftgly, you make it sound as if destination skiers are coming to killington in the fall and the spring to ski "filling hotel rooms, restaurants, and shops". The majority of early and late season skiers are passholders, and 95% drive to the mountain (are local). So no, early and late season skiing fills no restaurants, hotels, or shops. And 200-300 people per day, as kevin says, isn't really making a dent in anything at a place with over 45,000 bed units. <BR> <BR>Joegm -"i guess all those summer ice hockey leagues and camps here in the north east are really just some jedi mind trick being played on everyone... and those nhl playoffs that are on tv through june... a figment of the imagination <BR>and finally the whipped cream and cherry on top <BR>" you all speak like they owe you something " <BR> <BR>ummm, joe, buddy, those are all indoor sports, that have nothing to do with the weather or season, but nice try <BR> <BR>Joegm "A man,how, specifically, by not spending money on stockpiling snowmaking, will this allow for better operation of the mountian?" <BR>Well, it will allow them to use the money for: lift maintenance they have been deferring for so long (did ya notice how many times the superstar lift was down this spring...coincidence?) infrastructure improvements at the lodges, and ability to open more lifts during peak season so the place isn't such a disaster of lift lines, and more snowmaking in important areas of the mountain, during the season. And yes, groomers to lay down carpet would be a good addition, as it is proven that the majority of destination skiers consider snow quality and grooming as the reasons for choosing a resort, and right now killington needs to do whatever thay can to attract these skiers. <BR> <BR>Patrick, thanks, finally it seems like there is someone with their head screwed on straight. <BR>But I disagree with Killington owing condo owners anything, a condo is an investment, like a stock, you don't buy a condo unless you are sure that what it is tied to (the resort) is going to be around with the same value-addition well into the future. Its capitalism, just as killingtons struggles are part of capitalism. I compare it to the situation at lake powell, which, barring 10 years of intense rainfall, will be bone dry in the next decade or so. This is because of drought in the west. Do you think people that own waterfront property are telling the government that they are owed the water back because they own waterfront property, no, they knew that lake powell was a water supply for the west when they bought the property, and that there was always the possibility of the lake drying up.
 
The attraction of Killington for me, was the ability to ski an 8 month season, if that is no longer offered at K-mart they lost my business for good. If I want groomed powder puff conditions, I'll go to Okemo over Killington any day. As far as saving money on snowmaking to spend it elsewere goes, ASC definatly needs to spend money on lift maintenance. There is talk at Sugarloaf that the Snubber chair will not be running next season because ASC cannot afford to maintain such an old lift. This is a lift that sevices 1,100' vertical and a majority of the beginner terrain at the loaf. ASC is PATHETIC, hopefully someone who really knows anything about running a ski corporation(not a bank) will buy the company, or at least a portion of it. Their stock is nearly worthless, from an IPO of $18.00 per share down to $0.11 cents on friday, what a joke.
 
I should correct myself with the chair that is out of service at Sugarloaf, it's not the Snubber chair(that's also a piece of garbage) but the Bucksaw chair. Perhaps the chair will be removed in order to make room for more $700,000 + condo's.
 
Anonymous said: <BR>"The majority of early and late season skiers are passholders, and 95% drive to the mountain (are local)." <BR> <BR>"But I disagree with Killington owing condo owners anything, a condo is an investment, like a stock, you don't buy a condo unless you are sure that what it is tied to (the resort) is going to be around with the same value-addition well into the future. Its capitalism, just as killingtons struggles are part of capitalism." <BR> <BR>______________________________________________ <BR> <BR>1) I don't necessary agree with that 95% of the late season skier are locals (maybe midweek). I remember that something I would do a quick count of origin of cars based on license plates. If I am pretty sure that Vermont plates never represented more than 2/3 of the plates (probably less) in the parking lot (we are talking here when K was the only show in town, ie. starting late May). I think there was as many Massachusetts plates as Vermont ones, this is without counting a high number of New York and New Hampshire, followed by New Jersey, Maine, Quebec and the odd Penn and Ontario plates. <BR> <BR>Hey, I am a Geographer and skier redistribution interests me, what else can I say!! <BR> <BR>If you look at June 1st 1997 Fun Slalom, 5-6 of us were there after leaving Montreal at 3:30am + Kevin (as mentioned above, don't know if he was alone) so that makes 6-7 non-locals right there out of 200 participants (3%). <BR> <BR>Kevin, I wasn't sure that was the year of rain, fog and rain. June 1st 1992 and 1993 were more or less the same, however conditions were really pathetic in 1993 (last day). There was more walking than skiing involve on SUperstar that day (mid part all done). In 1992 and 97, I went back for my birthday on the 11th (or close on the 15th). <BR> <BR>2) On your second statement, I was not only talking about the condo owners, but the whole bunch of people being "hype" into the Skiing from October to Memorial Day thing. Should the Passholders sue for false advertising, all joking aside, it has been warm this Spring, but not much more than previous years. <BR> <BR>Killington should stop the "hype" if they cannot live up to it. This "Skiing from October to Memorial Day (and sometimes to June)" statement has become a real sick joke.
 
hey, everywhere throws out the hype (except maybe MRG), but it takes a certain type of people to listen to it, and those who do, are exactly who it is for <BR> <BR>BTW, saying that 2/3 of the license plates are from VT is proving my point.
 
I said, "I am pretty sure that Vermont plates never represented more than 2/3 of the plates (probably less)" <BR> <BR>At any given time during my late season visits. Most of the time, I believe that this statement is more accurate. <BR> <BR>"I think there was as many Massachusetts plates as Vermont ones ..." <BR> <BR>I counted the plates, but never kept records of it. If their were as many MAss plates than Vt, then it would be less than 50%, probably around 35% if you take into account the other states and provinces. <BR> <BR>About the Hype, yes there is hype everywhere, but not many areas revolves around the lenght of their season, "longest season...OCtober to Memorial Day (sometimes into June)". <BR> <BR>Even Mont St-Sauveur doesn't give it so much play to it even if they have been constantly had the longest season in Quebec and MSS doesn't have much too brang about skiing wise.
 
Ouch, I shouldn't have left the internet for the weekend, I missed a great debate ! <BR> <BR>Thanks Woodi, you explained properly what I meant to Mister Anonymous.... who actually doesn't seem to understand that just to open the trail I was talking about, they must make so much snow that it's skiable up to june or laaate may in the warm springs like this year (I skied it saturday 22th) <BR> <BR>The 40-50K$ by night doesn't consider something. It's true for Killington, but absolutely not applicable for my example, cause the Superstar is 2-3x wider and probably 4-5x longer. So with all the snowguns and capacity of Killington, (we talk theoritically here) 1 single night of additionnal snowmaking at La Réserve (than what is anyway required to open the trail all winter long) would be enough to ski the whole year in the canyon. <BR> <BR>40K$... After that, there is not so much expenses to open all year long. Charging fares like Tenney last year or even cheaper (and it's CAN$), I think they could really get a 40K$ of net margin. <BR> <BR>But anyway, this is just a theory, as I don't think that the ski area actually considers to build a summer glacier. <BR> <BR>Anyway, saturday, I found that there is a trail in the East, with a chairlift, that could remain open 10x longer than Superstar. Here is the trail "Rigodon" on the north side of Mont Tremblant. <BR> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/3962.jpg" ALT="Rigodon, may 22, 2004"> <BR> <BR>This is saturday may 22. Last week, the trail was skiable top to bottom, full width and it was almost possible to ski all the vertical of this side at Tremblant. <BR> <BR>This trail has already closed in june (1997) and with a north east orientation and a dedicated triple chairlift (Lowell Thomas), it could remain open quite long. But Intrawest didn't want to end that late and closed all the mountain on april 18 even though the north side was all white-covered ! Now that ASC is not in the market anymore, may be Intrawest will see an opportunity..... (I remind you that Tremblant is within 1h30 for over 3 millions persons.)
 
Frank, that's $40k-50K per NIGHT, not for the whole trail. Considering they can blow about 5-6 inches of packed snow on superstar each night, you are looking at 40 nights of snowmaking to give it a 20 ft base depth (assuming natural snow was canceled out over the course of the year by rain/warm weather). <BR> <BR>Then you are looking at 40*40K = $1.6 Million to put a 20 ft base depth onto superstar (at the minimum, $2.0 million @ 50K per night). So you have to make $1.6 million before you even come close to making a profit. <BR> <BR>If you have 300 skiers, EVERY DAY, for 90 days (assuming 90 in the spring), and EVERY skier paid $40, gross revenues would equal $1,080,000, well below the $1.6 million to blow snow to stay open for those 90 days. This doesn't factor in <BR>1)the 10 skiers that show up mon-fri <BR>2) Chairlift operation costs <BR>3) The fact that 75% of the skiers are season passholders.
 
I am 100% sure for the rain and fog on June 1st 1997. I only have three ski days in June at Killington: <BR> <BR>June 1st 1994-Sunny Weather, morning frost kept the snow firm, I came for the day and arrived too late to run the slalom. <BR> <BR>June 5th 1996- Hot and sunny <BR> <BR>June 1st 1997- Heavy rain and fog, I could hardly see the gates on mid-Superstar. I also remember that there was no walking and alot of snow. I think this was the year they stayed open until June 23? <BR> <BR>Since I had to go through my ticket collection for Killington, here are my ski days by month: <BR> <BR>October: 12 days <BR>November: 8 days <BR>December: 6 days <BR>January: 6 days <BR>February: 3 days <BR>March: 4 days <BR>April: 5 days <BR>May: 15 days <BR>June: 3 days <BR> <BR>These are the tickets that I kept, I have about 10-20 days from the 80's that I did not save. 99% of my trips in October/May were weekend trips that included lodging/meals/lift tickets/ and golf during my days in May.
 
Yeah anonymous, I agree with you on your calcul and all. I was just doing a comparison. If we take the snowmaking capacity of Killington and put it in the Loup-Garou which is 10 times less big to cover, we talk of 50-60 inches by nights with this capacity... Ok, we're still far from 20' high, but it's still quite easier than a HUGE place like the Superstar. If I come back in the US and Killington, the Cascade looked quite less wide and was less long too (and I guess better oriented) so it was really easier to make it last late in the season. The Superstar is just too wide and too long. Take a less big (but still interesting) and less wide trail and it would be 4-5x less expensive to ski late. Then it could become profitable. <BR> <BR>It's tough for me to believe in a potential profitability for a trail like Superstar.
 
yes frank i agree, superstar is a terrible run to try to keep snow on, wide and not shaded at all, a narrower run with ample shade would be a much better place to try to push spring skiing
 
I heard $14K per night to make snow at Snow Summit a few years back. <BR> <BR>Nonetheless, some effort to blow extra snow on the Glades/Canyon terrain at Killington could be worthwhile. <BR> <BR>1.) The same runs are being used at both ends of the season, instead of just one end with Superstar. <BR> <BR>2.) If these areas were going to late May in the pre-Superstar era, they won't have to do as much to get the same results they were getting with Superstar. <BR> <BR>3.) Patrick's comments about the Mass. plates at Killington corroborate my observations about L.A. skiers at Mammoth and Vancouver skiers at Whistler. There is significant day ticket revenue plus other spending in the area. <BR> <BR>4.) 99% of us skiers still have to allocate time and $, and the major commitments will be made in February/March for expected optimum conditions. That said, we'll also go for the early and late if it's weekend (no vacation time taken) and day-commute or cheap weekend (drive not fly) distance. <BR> <BR>Therefore Killington is the optimal resort to capture this market in the East because its weekend commute population base is 30 million vs. the 3 million for Tremblant. The extra elevation offsets at least some of Tremblant's latitude advantage. And Killington is also the southern limit of the Northeast's highest natural snowfall zone.
 
Tony, Killington is QUITE farther than Tremblant from the big cities and people wouldn't drive 3-4 or 10 hours to reach 1 trail of ski. <BR> <BR>1h from Montreal is correct though, for this kind of conditions. <BR> <BR>I live at 3h30 from Killington and I never drove up there. I was ending my ski season because the drive was just too long for the worth of 1 trail.
 
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