Level 1 avalanche course

Killclimbz":2phcfrqi said:
No good reason to not have an avalung is you can afford it. Just by wearing one doesn't mean you are going to take more risks. I certainly don't. As mentioned above, if you are not using one because you are going to avoid avalanches, then you don't need to carry a beacon, shovel, and probe either. So don't bother with those items either.

The thing is, even the best avalanche guru's in the business get caught with their pants down from time to time. Guys who are conservative. The problem is if "it's steep enough to ride, it's steep enough to slide". You can reduce chances that you'll get caught in an avalanche, but you just can't eliminate it. So if you can afford an avalung, why not have one? It's not a necessary item, but I and several of my partners rock one. Better to have a gun and not need it...
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1st off, what marc c and admin said.

second, i carry a beacon/probe/shovel, and most importantly, a brain, not only for the safty of my group, but even more importantly the safety and backup for other groups that may be more inclined to tickle the dragon. i've personally seen folks get burried and die on more than one occasion (all east coast) and it was never part of my group, but at least i was there to dig and probe. "steep enough to ride, steep enough to slide?" $hit, i spent a whole winter in the wasatch skiing wonderful untracked slopes that don't and have never slid (at or under 30 degrees and fun). just gotta know the terrain. you most certainly can reduce yer chances to zero if you chose yer sliding terrain wisely.

i come from a school of "false sense of security". talking with a doc from a very prominent vermont ski area, he said that most head trauma deaths come from those that wear helmets. not because they wear helmets, but because they tend to ski a bit faster and agro wearing one. avalung? sure it saves lives, but i've seen folks traversing suspect slopes with the damn things in their mouth incase the thing rips out. doubt they woulda done it without the avalung. "oh i can breathe. but i died from trauma".

personally, if i get buried, the last thing i want is another 20-30 minutes to think about my potential doom. all set with that.

be smart, be conservative, stay alive.

rog
 
icelantic":3339gyhv said:
avalung? ..in case the thing rips out.
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From what I recall (maybe some stats at ISSW) a significant percentage (less than half, but not a lot less) of avalung burials do not have them in their mouths when found.

If you want a technology solution, the airbag (SnowPulse, etc.) backpacks are far more effective as they prevent burials (97% by preliminary data from Europe). Only 7 recorded cases in North America, 6 successful; in the fatality the bag got punctured so the victim got buried after that. Depending upon design and the specific case there can be some trauma protection also.

A veteran patroller was killed doing control work at Jackson Hole last year. After conducting a thorough investigation the resort has decided to equip all patrollers with airbag backpacks. The Jackson accident was observed by 3 other patrollers, but even with their expertise they were not able to save their colleague in time as he was under 7 feet of snow. This info also from an ISSW presentation.

Nonetheless I agree that the correct advice for us amateurs has been provided by admin, MarcC and icelantic. The airbag packs are not cheap at ~$500-$700. They were provided to clients at Eagle Pass Heli in 2009. Shoulder straps had some extra volume, but in terms of weight and comfort it was fine.

While on the subject of avalanche safety, maybe some of you already know this tidbit I learned at ISSW. Beacons generally have one antenna for transmitting and 1, 2 or 3 for receiving. The 3 antenna models have been introduced quite recently; I first saw them at Mustang and Island Lake last year. They showed us at Mustang how to use them for multiple burials. When you find the first victim you can hit a button that turns off that signal so you can search for another one. What I learned at ISSW is that the orientation of the buried transceiver has a significant effect upon the range of its transmission. If it is buried in vertical orientation the range in which it can be detected by a 1 or 2 antenna receiver is less than half the distance compared to a horizontal orientation. The new 3 antenna receivers bring that detection distance up to 90%. Another solution is to have 2 transmitting antennae with an inclinometer that automatically chooses which one to use. At any rate, if you're doing transceiver drills, try burying one vertically sometime to learn how much more difficult it might be to find.
 
Tony Crocker":10dq7lls said:
What I learned at ISSW is that the orientation of the buried transceiver has a significant effect upon the range of its transmission. If it is buried in vertical orientation the range in which it can be detected by a 1 or 2 antenna receiver is less than half the distance compared to a horizontal orientation. The new 3 antenna receivers bring that detection distance up to 90%.
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IOW, *your* beacon can be the cheapest but good model you can get whereas you want all your partners to have the best, easiest to use, 3 antenna models. :wink:
 
I read about the airbag the other day...amazing but expensive..would be great if it came down in price..But if everything they say is true, its the only thing that can save you. It would seem that once you are buried, again depending how far down, you only have a few minutes...maybe its worth the price..about the cost of boots or skis.
 
icelanticskier":mxupegnp said:
1st off, what marc c and admin said.

second, i carry a beacon/probe/shovel, and most importantly, a brain, not only for the safty of my group, but even more importantly the safety and backup for other groups that may be more inclined to tickle the dragon. i've personally seen folks get burried and die on more than one occasion (all east coast) and it was never part of my group, but at least i was there to dig and probe. "steep enough to ride, steep enough to slide?" $hit, i spent a whole winter in the wasatch skiing wonderful untracked slopes that don't and have never slid (at or under 30 degrees and fun). just gotta know the terrain. you most certainly can reduce yer chances to zero if you chose yer sliding terrain wisely.

i come from a school of "false sense of security". talking with a doc from a very prominent vermont ski area, he said that most head trauma deaths come from those that wear helmets. not because they wear helmets, but because they tend to ski a bit faster and agro wearing one. avalung? sure it saves lives, but i've seen folks traversing suspect slopes with the damn things in their mouth incase the thing rips out. doubt they woulda done it without the avalung. "oh i can breathe. but i died from trauma".

personally, if i get buried, the last thing i want is another 20-30 minutes to think about my potential doom. all set with that.

be smart, be conservative, stay alive.

rog
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You should carry a beacon, shovel, and probe. But by your logic you take more chances by having them with you. There are always going to be people who are idiots because they have a certain piece of gear. A beacon is no exception.

As far as the avalung in their mouth thing. If you have it why not use it? Most people I know will drop that same slope you are talking about regardless of avalung or not if they feel it is safe. Fun terrain to ride is pretty much over 30 degrees, and the risk can be there. I have no problem with it.

Airbags are great and work well. Again though, if you get one of those, then you are going to take more chances because you have one. Xavier DeLarue practically walked away from a class 4 or 5 avalanche because he was able to deploy one. Of course if said avalanche went through trees it probably would have been different. No lack of rocks though. You can see it here. Starts at around 1:17. Pretty good testimonial about the effectiveness of these devices right there. No way you walk away from that one with a beacon and avalung.
 
Can you bring an airbag on a plane though..pressurized canister???
Transport of a Snowpulse airbag with an American (3000 PSI) cylinder under pressure is
regulated and is allowed only for transport linked to rescue missions (and that for any
country). Only in Canada the transportation of a Snowpulse «Life Bag» with the American
Cartridge is allowed for air transportation as the system is classify as UN2990 LIFE-SAVING
APPLIANCES, SELFINFLATING. This includes heli-skiing activities.
In all cases it is always possible to empty the cylinder by triggering the airbag.

So I guess you have to empty it and find a place to charge it... and it can only be charged by a licensed vendor...
 
If I recall correctly the BCA airbag uses some inert gas that's not too hard to find. And honestly...if you're traveling somewhere that's avi prone and not too far off the grid I can't imagine that it's too difficult to find a dealer to recharge a canister.
 
And if you're coming to Utah, there's more than enough hot air to recharge multiple canisters just at Admin's and his neighbor's house alone!
 
Marc_C":3te3sqnc said:
And if you're coming to Utah, there's more than enough hot air to recharge multiple canisters just at Admin's and his neighbor's house alone!
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Folks, he'll be here all week. Try the veal and tip your waitress well.
 
No you can't fly with the canisters full. If I remember correctly, for the BCA packs, you can get the canisters recharged and/or buy them at a scuba shop. I think some medical suppliers could probably do it too.

I can't remember if you can fly with the canisters empty or not. I got a hunch you probably can't.
 
admin":33xsjpzs said:
If I recall correctly the BCA airbag uses some inert gas that's not too hard to find. And honestly...if you're traveling somewhere that's avi prone and not too far off the grid I can't imagine that it's too difficult to find a dealer to recharge a canister.
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We had a presentation by BCA at ISSW. The cylinders must be demonstrated empty for air travel according to TSA. BCA's refill objective is less than 10 minutes for under $10. That's why they use compressed air rather than "some inert gas" that would be less convenient or more expensive. So the cylinders can be refilled at scuba or paintball shops or fire departments.

Killclimbz":33xsjpzs said:
Again though, if you get one of those, then you are going to take more chances because you have one.
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ISSW also had a few presentations on specific avalanches last season. One of these was Saddle Peak, which is slackcountry from the new Schlasman lift at Bridger Bowl. There was a weak layer from Dec. 17 that held up nearly 2 months despite a consistent avy rating of "considerable" and quite a bit of skier traffic. On Feb. 16 a snowboarder knocked off a cornice that triggered the entire slope below it. Fortunately only one snowmobiler was caught and rescued. With regard to taking chances on slopes like that, someone put together this amusing video for us at ISSW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eFEhQqm_Gg Short video of the avalanche powder cloud: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZovxGy8 ... re=related
 
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