Live near Stowe or Sugarbush?

[kmartshopper]

I found some past discussions comparing the two, but a lot is vacation specific. I'm looking at permanently relocating to within 15miles of one of the two (and ~1hr from the other). $towe's price is a drag, but the mountain is more imporatant to me, and I'll just eat the cost difference for the pass if it's a better fit for me.

Probably 40day seasons, more weekends than weekdays. I am a boarder, btw, so MRG nearby the bush is unfortunately not a selling point. I am a snow snob, don't bother when it's too icy, but don't mind good manmade. Love bumps, trees, and narrow east coast trails. Don't do the park, hate the Killington Krowds, don't eat at or even enter the lodges frequently, and don't hit the bars much.

The only preconceived (not backed up by experience) thoughts I had were:
Sugarbush is significantly bigger, and I'd get bored quicker at Stowe.
Stowe gets noticeably more snow.
Stowe is more crowded weekends.
Stowes trails are more fun.

Much obliged for any thoughts, or for dispelling any of my myths...

 

[ccskier]

Look on the other side of Stowe. The prices in Hype Park, Elmore, etc... are more reasonable. From there you also have the options of the Smuggs and Jay. Prices in Waterbury and the Mad River Valley are pretty consistent with Stowe. The further from the highway the better.

 

[riverc0il]

Smuggs and Jay are closer to Stowe, that may be a consideration. You into backcountry? Stowe is king there too with options at Smuggs too. I think more important, it comes down to feel of the mountain, which area's vibe do you prefer. Stowe may be a rich place and cost a lot of money, but I like the vibe better at Stowe personally (though that could change once the Spruce development is done, it already looks awful). I think Bush has about the third most expensive season pass in New England, so when you get up into that type of money, who's counting? :lol: Stowe also has the advantage in terms of terrain of not having a run out and enjoying 2k of vertical except on Spruce but overall, Bush does have a slight edge in bounds trails but Stowe makes up for it on the out of bounds. Again, I think it comes down to feel and preference. Do some ride and stay packages at each place and get out and sample the towns when you go as that is going to be just as important. Don't just look at the mountain, look at the four season appeal of the location you choose to live.

 

[kmartshopper]

I'm actually limited to two options (jobs)... either the Cambridge area for Stowe, or the Bristol/Lincoln area for Sugarbush. I'll still be driving to work more often than driving to the mountains

I've been around Bristol, and I really like it. I hope to be up around Cambridge this week, and get some comparison. Unfortunately due to the job timing, I'll probably need to decide in the next month without really testing out the snowsports. I'm sure I'll be happy with either, but if all else turns out to be equal (jobs) the skiing might play a bigger part in the decision.

Smuggs is right across the street from Stowe right?
I haven't done much backcountry, but would expect to if I lived in the area. Realistically though, I'm probably more of a 'ski down to the road' type more than the heavy hiking type :roll:

 

[Patrick]

Smuggs is right across the street from Stowe right?

We'll when the road is open. I might be wrong, but I thick it's about 30 minutes drive to the other side of the Notch in the Winter time.

I would think that Waterbury next to I-89 would be my favorite location. See J.Spin response on the "Where to Live" Discussion.

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... te&p=17810

If we're purely concerned with skiing? I would pick J.Spin location in Waterbury. Ah yes, Waterbury isn't a metropolitan area. :wink:

I drove through Waterbury the other day and was thinking about how well placed it is -- a few minutes to Bolton, Mad River Valley and Stowe/Smuggs, 30-40 minutes to Kmart/Pico and Burke/Jay within an hour. Nice.

If I could pick a town to live in Vermont without consideration for current employment, it would most certainly be the Waterbury area. Though Kmart and Pico are MUCH further than 30-40 minutes. IIRC, It is almost an hour from Kmart to Mad River Glen alone. Burke would be slightly longer than an hour but close enough but I think Jay would be slightly longer than an hour as well. Probably both of those in the 1:15 range or so pending favorable traffic and weather. The key areas of Mad River, Stowe, and Bush are right there and just over an hour to Jay isn't much worse than my current setup though Route 100 instead of the 91 deal would be a royal pain. Though at that location, I would probably consider a pass to Mad River and take the $39 Vermonter ticket at Jay when it would be the better bet. Skinning options from that region are off the hook, practically backcountry options in your backyard. It would be two hours from Mount Washington instead of one hour for the draw back. But having Burlington right up the Interstate would be the key to seal the deal despite the drawbacks of travel to Jay/Burke/Cannon/Mount Washington etc. compared to my current locations. But then again, that would be relocation specific which just is not happening at this point.

I?ve been meaning to reply to this interesting thread (what a challenge you guys are discussing to develop that system on city ratings!) since I saw the above comments about living in Waterbury, but I haven?t had a chance to respond until now. Obviously if Burlington is barely on the verge of consideration in this thread (metro-style areas), then Waterbury is in a different universe, but since it came up as a potentially attractive area to live as a skier, and we moved here last fall (from Montana no less), I figured I?d add a couple of comments. I?ve always considered Waterbury the crossroads of Northern Vermont skiing, because it?s literally the intersection of three of the main routes of travel around Northern Vermont: Interstate 89, Route 2, and Route 100. With reference to the zone from Killington up to Jay Peak, you are truly surrounded by some of the ?best? (rather subjective) and snowiest (less subjective) ski areas in Vermont, and you can get to even the most distant areas in that region with a bit over an hour of driving. You live right among the mountains, and if you?re a backcountry skier, you can literally have skiing out your back door. Access to the Burlington area is very quick as well. It?s about 20 minutes to the Williston/Taft Corners area, or about 25-30 minutes to downtown Burlington. If it hadn?t been for my wife working in Morrisville, we probably would have just defaulted to living in the familiarity of the Champlain Valley, but we?ve always liked Waterbury, and it just worked out for us that it happened to be a nice halfway point between workplaces. Anyway, after one ski season of living here, I?m hooked. It?s getting harder to imagine living back in the Champlain Valley, especially since the trip into Burlington from Waterbury isn?t all that different from some of the more typical Chittenden County locations like Charlotte, Milton, Jericho, etc. Waterbury is also a nice community with a fun downtown area. The latest population numbers I?ve seen put Waterbury at around 5,000 people, which is similar to Hamilton, where we lived in Montana. Hamilton felt a little bigger than Waterbury because as the most substantial city in Ravalli County, it was the hub for the rest of the towns. But Waterbury isn?t as major a city in Washington County since there are places like Montpelier etc. Both Hamilton and Waterbury had relatively large cities (Missoula and Burlington respectively) close by, but it has been more convenient living in Waterbury with the shorter drive to Burlington (Hamilton to Missoula is about 45-60 minutes depending on the part of the city you are heading to). One nice addition to Waterbury that I guess had been lacking is a big supermarket. Previously there were just a couple (or maybe just one?) medium-sized supermarkets, the kind that don?t always have quite the selection of larger ones. That?s been nice to have; I guess we would have gone to Williston or Montpelier otherwise to get items that only the big supermarkets carry. I have to think Waterbury is growing if there was enough incentive for the new market. It definitely seems to be growing in popularity as a place to live for people who work in Burlington. I would highly recommend it if living in the mountains is your cup of tea. However, if you need a city bigger than Burlington for reasons such as job, etc., then it?s not really practical. We haven?t even lived here for an entire year yet of course, so there are probably some things I haven?t thought about, but I figured I?d throw out some initial impressions of the area for those that were interested.

J.Spin

 

[kmartshopper]

Smuggs is right across the street from Stowe right?

We'll when the road is open. I might be wrong, but I thick it's about 30 minutes drive to the other side of the Notch in the Winter time.

You bore me with such details :wink:

Aye caramba does that change the scene. Thanks for pointing this out. I thought I remembered that you could see smuggs from the parking lot at Stowe... but now that I think about it, that may have just been the other area at stowe.

I'll read up on that thread as well. I think waterbury is a bit far out for me, but it's a good thread in general.

 

[J.Spin]

The only preconceived (not backed up by experience) thoughts I had were:
Sugarbush is significantly bigger, and I'd get bored quicker at Stowe.
Stowe gets noticeably more snow.
Stowe is more crowded weekends.
Stowes trails are more fun.

Much obliged for any thoughts, or for dispelling any of my myths...

From my experience of skiing both areas pretty extensively, (although not very extensively over the past few seasons while I was in Montana) I'd say your impressions are generally on track. Here are my thoughts on the topics you mentioned:

1) Size - Sugarbush feels a bit more expansive, but as far as getting bored more quickly at Stowe, in my opinion you can totally remove that from your list of concerns. Both resorts are similar enough with regard to in-bounds terrain variety and feel that there's no big difference there. If you?re really into backcountry/sidecountry skiing, both have some nice options, but I?d say Stowe wins in that regard because of all the backcountry terrain above tree line and a more expansive backcountry trail network.

2) Snowfall - Stowe generally does get more overall snow, mostly because the upslope effect seems to be a bit stronger there. Generally, the upslope enhancement seems to fall off the more you head southward from the Vermont/Quebec border. While the main contributor to the difference in snowfall seems to be the upslope as described above, a minor contributor is also those times where some form of a rain/sleet/snow line lies between Sugarbush and Stowe. This is typically only a few storms a season, but I think it adds to the difference a bit.

3) Crowds ? Stowe is definitely more crowded than Sugarbush in my experience, and a lift queue at the Fourrunner Quad is just about a given during the middle of most weekend days. At Sugarbush on the other hand, unless things have changed drastically in the past few seasons, finding a substantial queue for one of the main base lifts at Lincoln Peak is the exception. Real lift queues at the main Sugarbush lifts might occur on a holiday weekend, or some other special event day, but they weren?t there on a typical weekend day. The Castlerock chair at Sugarbush would often have a queue on weekends however, being a low-volume lift. On-trail, Sugarbush also feels less crowded than Stowe, which may be a function of somewhat more on-piste terrain.

4) Terrain ? In line with my comment about size, I wouldn?t worry about too much about differences in on-piste terrain; I?d say the variety and type of trail offerings are very similar at the two resorts.

I guess my analysis doesn?t really suggest that one area is clearly superior with regard to the list of items you indicated, since I?d summarize the winner in the categories as follows:

Size: Similar
Snowfall: Stowe
Crowds: Sugarbush
Terrain: Similar

But, if one of the items is more important to you, it might make a difference. Also, if off-piste skiing is going to be very important to you, then you can give Stowe the edge in that category.

J.Spin

 

[J.Spin]

I'm actually limited to two options (jobs)... either the Cambridge area for Stowe, or the Bristol/Lincoln area for Sugarbush.

I?ll just add a couple of geographic notes on both those options, because each has a bit of a drawback with regard to Stowe and Sugarbush skiing.

As Patrick already alluded to, the most direct route from Cambridge to the Stowe Mountain Resort base area would be to go through the notch (route 108) but that isn?t open in the winter. Even in the summer, it?s not the fastest road in the world because although it?s paved, it is very narrow and a bit steep in spots so the going can be slow. Without route 108 open to get through the notch, I believe the next best way around from Cambridge would be a combination of routes 15, 100, and 108 (with maybe some shortcuts in there). I think that drive would be at least the 30 minutes he mentioned, possibly more. Cambridge is very close for skiing at Smuggler?s Notch ski area however; a friend that used to live in Cambridge would even go home for lunch on ski days at Smuggler?s and it didn?t seem like much of a hassle.

A point to remember about Bristol/Lincoln with regard to Sugarbush is that like Cambridge and Stowe, they are also separated by a mountain pass ? the Appalachian Gap (on route 17). I?m not sure of the drive time from Bristol to Sugarbush, but again it might be around 30 minutes because of the gap. The App Gap is paved, and it is generally well maintained, but it tops out at close to 2,400? and can be a challenging road to drive in the winter. Given the choice, I think most people take the easier route through the Mad River Valley on storm days, but that would be a lot longer route from Bristol. When I lived in the Burlington/Shelburne area we would sometimes take the gap because it was perhaps a little quicker for us to get to Mad River Glen (basically right ON the far side of the gap) or Sugarbush. But the difference in travel time was pretty marginal from our location so if there was even the question of difficult travel due to a storm, we?d go the easy way on I-89 and route 100. I?ll reiterate that the App Gap is for the most part maintained very well, but here?s a trip report from a fellow SkiVT-L subscriber on April 5th of this year that gives you an idea of what it can be like when you get there before the plows:

http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind07 ... 5&m=118846

Again, that is definitely the exception in terms of winter travel on the gap. That was the first time he was personally unable to make it over the gap as he mentioned, although I?m sure other people have their tales. At least it?s something to keep in mind if it is going to be your primary route of travel to your local ski area ? especially if you want to get very early starts.

I don?t want to deter you from your choices at all, as they can still both be great places to live for skiing; they?re just not necessarily the quickest options to the resorts you mentioned. I figured it never hurts to have as much information as possible when you make your decision. If possible, I would certainly test drive the routes between the areas you are thinking about so you can get a good idea of what they?re like.

Congratulations on your relocation plans, I?m sure there are many people who would love to be in your shoes.

J.Spin

 

[riverc0il]

Here is another point you may want to consider since you are a boarder: Sugarbush has some horrid run outs and flat spots whereas Stowe levels out slightly towards the bottom but never really looses pitch to the point that I would consider the trails "run outs." Bush drives me nuts with run outs and I am a skier with skating capability and poles. Just another thought, but I am obviously biased against Bush, so don't let that sway ya J.Spin articulated the places are comparable pretty well. Smuggs would be the deal maker for me if I was a boarder whereas a skier might lean the other way with closer access to MRG. 30 minutes isn't a hell of a lot of time to drive around a few mountains to access a second mountain with some damn fine terrain. Perhaps Hamdog will jump in and share some thoughts as a Smuggs boarder?

 

[Patrick]

Here is another point you may want to consider since you are a boarder: Sugarbush has some horrid run outs and flat spots whereas Stowe levels out slightly towards the bottom but never really looses pitch to the point that I would consider the trails "run outs." Bush drives me nuts with run outs and I am a skier with skating capability and poles. Just another thought, but I am obviously biased against Bush, so don't let that sway ya J.Spin articulated the places are comparable pretty well. Smuggs would be the deal maker for me if I was a boarder whereas a skier might lean the other way with closer access to MRG. 30 minutes isn't a hell of a lot of time to drive around a few mountains to access a second mountain with some damn fine terrain. Perhaps Hamdog will jump in and share some thoughts as a Smuggs boarder?

The fact that you were a boarder didn't stink in. If that is the case, Smuggs/Stowe combo is better than Sugarbush. I personally prefer Stowe and Smuggs over Sugarbush. River is right about the runouts at Bush,

 

[From_the_NEK]

My advise is to go with the Stowe/Smuggs combo based on the recommendations above.
If you are working in Cambridge then living in Johnson or Morrisville should be an easy commute to work and a short trip to the nearest resort (20 - 30 minutes either way to Stowe or Smuggs).

 

[kmartshopper]

Hey all, I really appreciate all the great feedback. I just got back from the northern areas and liked all that too. I think I was unclear earlier that I'll actually be working in either Milton or Vergennes.

Up north, I'd probably shift to Jefferson or even Johnson. I'm really kicking myself for never having tried Smuggs. It's smaller, but is so practical to take a 1/2 day from work and hit the tuesday morning fresh dump. Could drive a little farther to Stowe or Jay for full days and variety.

:?: Hypothetically, say you had passes for both smuggs and Stowe. Could you ski/ride between the two at will - parking at Smuggs? Google maps looks like it might be possible... but then again, I thought I could drive 108 to Stowe.

Still either Hinesburge or Bristol if to the south. The rt. 17 gap posts (and the gap itself) are intimidating, but I think it's my only option. Hinesburg would be better to go around on 89 in bad weather as a backup. I spent the past winter in SLC and drove the canyons every day, but they don't compare. Certainly not ideal, but still better than getting trampled weekly on I91 to Killington every friday night.

I'm a skating whiner too.. so that's good to know about the bush. I think I'll be tempted to try skiing some day if I end up down south.

 

[Admin]

:?: Hypothetically, say you had passes for both smuggs and Stowe. Could you ski/ride between the two at will - parking at Smuggs?

Yes. Spruce Peak at Stowe and Sterling Mountain at Smuggs are two sides of the same hill. It involves a bit of a schlep across a frozen Sterling Pond, somewhat easier on two planks than one, but yes, it can be done.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

say you had passes for both smuggs and Stowe.

Unless you're a college student, that'd be more than two bills, no?

 

[Admin]

Unless you're a college student, that'd be more than two bills, no?

Does the VSAA still offer it's Gold Pass? I just quickly browed the website but didn't see a reference. If so, for about five bills, you wouldn't need to worry. :wink:

 

[kmartshopper]

say you had passes for both smuggs and Stowe.

Unless you're a college student, that'd be more than two bills, no?

It wouldn't be cheap - but i was thinking full Smuggs, and midweek Stowe. That would put it in the $1300 range. Such a bargain.

So it sounds like it's not trivial to get back and forth though... especially for a boarder.

 

[J.Spin]

Hey all, I really appreciate all the great feedback. I just got back from the northern areas and liked all that too. I think I was unclear earlier that I'll actually be working in either Milton or Vergennes.

Up north, I'd probably shift to Jefferson or even Johnson. I'm really kicking myself for never having tried Smuggs. It's smaller, but is so practical to take a 1/2 day from work and hit the tuesday morning fresh dump. Could drive a little farther to Stowe or Jay for full days and variety.

Those are great locations for skiing Smugg?s; it would be like having the ski area in your back yard and the drives would be very short. Also, while I guess Smugg?s is a bit smaller than Sugarbush and Stowe, it doesn?t feel much smaller. Growing up, I always thought of Smugg?s as in the same league as the other relatively large areas in the region (Jay Peak, Mad River, Sugarbush, and Stowe).

:?: Hypothetically, say you had passes for both smuggs and Stowe. Could you ski/ride between the two at will - parking at Smuggs? Google maps looks like it might be possible... but then again, I thought I could drive 108 to Stowe.

In this case you?ll be happy to know that the connection is more than hypothetically possible, it?s an absolute reality. In fact, the two resorts have in the past promoted the connection for skiers/riders. Here?s a link to one article that talks about the connection (down toward the bottom):

http://www.scenesofvermont.com/reviews/ ... _notch.cfm

Interestingly, it seems that they are not ?promoting? the connection anymore, as one reviewer at the link below suggests that Stowe has ?closed? the connection out of ?snobbery?. You?ll have to scroll down toward the bottom of the page and look in the ?CONS? section of the final review:

http://www.goski.com/resorts/smuggler/r ... db#reviews

I?m not sure exactly how they would ?close? the connection, because the trail I?ve been on up there between the two resorts is the width of a road. I?m also not sure what ?closed? actually means, but there should be no reason a skier with a pass to both resorts (or any skier/boarder for that matter) shouldn?t be able to travel freely between them at this point. Both ski areas let you ski out of bounds, so what is there to close? There?s no lift servicing the area between the two resorts; the connection is a ski/walk, and there?s no lift to close. I guess there is one action they could take if they are not actively promoting the connection anymore. As I recall they used to groom the connection trail between the two resorts in the past, so maybe they are not doing that anymore and it is probably considered out of bounds. I doubt that would be a big deal for anyone that wants to get between the resorts unless it is not traveled much and there is no packed path. Crossing the mountain top in waist-deep snow without snowshoes or skins might be a challenge if there isn?t an established path. I?ve never done the whole connection from one resort to the other, so I?m not sure on the transit time, but I?ve done bits and pieces of it on various trips. I?m guessing the walk is probably less than 30 minutes, but I just don?t know. Starting from Smugg?s to ski Stowe would mean a shorter day at Stowe because you?d have to wait for the Madonna lift at Smugg?s to get going, then there?s the hike across to Spruce, and finally if you want to ski the main mountain (Mansfield) at Stowe, you?d have to cross over to there from Spruce (after skiing down Spruce). Fortunately, the new transfer gondola can get you between Spruce and Mansfield pretty quickly.

Still either Hinesburge or Bristol if to the south. The rt. 17 gap posts (and the gap itself) are intimidating, but I think it's my only option. Hinesburg would be better to go around on 89 in bad weather as a backup. I spent the past winter in SLC and drove the canyons every day, but they don't compare. Certainly not ideal, but still better than getting trampled weekly on I91 to Killington every friday night.

Ahh, now in terms of driving to skiing, I?d say Hinesburg is a better option than Bristol all around. In either place you?re looking at roughly the same drive time over the gap, but Hinesburg has some huge benefits. You are basically in the greater Burlington area when you are in Hinesburg, and you?ve got great access to the interstate. It can depend on what part of Hinesburg you?re in, but you?re hitting the point where the drive over the gap or the drive via I-89/route 100 is the same. At that point you don?t really have to worry about hitting the gap on stormy days if you don?t want to. I went to high school in Hinesburg, and on half days we would often head over the gap to ski at Mad River Glen or Sugarbush in the afternoon. But, the biggest benefit in time savings by going the gap route is if you are going to Mad River Glen. If you were heading to Sugarbush, I?m not sure if there is too much time saved. The other huge plus with Hinesburg is that you have basically the same drive time to Stowe, Sugarbush, Smugg?s, and Mad River Glen (~45 minutes or so to each) by the I-89/Route 100 method, or route 15 in the case of Smugg?s. You?re not all that close to any one ski area, but I don?t consider Bristol all that close to any one ski area either, and actually further from the others. In my opinion, the only ski areas for which Bristol would substantially beat Hinesburg in any sort of drive time would be Middlebury, Pico, and Killington (the areas to the south via Route 7).

Obviously you may have other factors on choosing which town to live in besides just skiing, and I won?t speak to those, but at least I can give you the lowdown on the skiing/driving location aspect having grown up and skied extensively in the area. Hopefully this has been helpful.

J.Spin

 

[Admin]

Starting from Smugg?s to ski Stowe would mean a shorter day at Stowe because you?d have to wait for the Madonna lift at Smugg?s to get going

Correction: Sterling. This will be a much faster trip, too, once Smuggs puts in the delayed six-pack replacement for the Sterling Double.

 

[sszycher]

quick thought

-if you're working/living in the Cambridge VT area, you won't be riding Stowe, you'll be riding Smuggs. It's at least 45 mins, if not an hour, from Cambridge to Mansfield/Spruce. The Notch road (Rt 108) being closed in the Winter makes a HUGE difference...you have to go all the way around.

Regardless, your qual of life will immediately go up if you move from CT to VT. Jump on the opportunity if possible.

 

[From_the_NEK]

JSpin Wrote:

Ahh, now in terms of driving to skiing, I?d say Hinesburg is a better option than Bristol all around. In either place you?re looking at roughly the same drive time over the gap, but Hinesburg has some huge benefits. You are basically in the greater Burlington area when you are in Hinesburg, and you?ve got great access to the interstate. It can depend on what part of Hinesburg you?re in, but you?re hitting the point where the drive over the gap or the drive via I-89/route 100 is the same. At that point you don?t really have to worry about hitting the gap on stormy days if you don?t want to. I went to high school in Hinesburg, and on half days we would often head over the gap to ski at Mad River Glen or Sugarbush in the afternoon. But, the biggest benefit in time savings by going the gap route is if you are going to Mad River Glen. If you were heading to Sugarbush, I?m not sure if there is too much time saved. The other huge plus with Hinesburg is that you have basically the same drive time to Stowe, Sugarbush, Smugg?s, and Mad River Glen (~45 minutes or so to each) by the I-89/Route 100 method, or route 15 in the case of Smugg?s. You?re not all that close to any one ski area, but I don?t consider Bristol all that close to any one ski area either, and actually further from the others. In my opinion, the only ski areas for which Bristol would substantially beat Hinesburg in any sort of drive time would be Middlebury, Pico, and Killington (the areas to the south via Route 7).

From Hinesburg you also have the quickest access to Bolton and night skiing after work. Bristol is a little further away (definitely the closest to MRG and Sugarbush.
FYI: Stowe also offers night skiing