Northeast Local(?) Ski Options
- Thread starter Harvey
- Start date
EMSC
Well-known member
$47M operating loss is beyond outrageous. $81M in NYS money (including capital) to run 3 ski areas and 3, by comparison, tiny operations in Lake Placid is beyond nuts. I would think without state $$ the Bobsled, Jumping and ice rink might never again operate, but the 3 ski centers? There is a significant and competitive market for that.... For Harvey, imagine what Laslo could accomplish if he got even a tiny fraction of what Gore is getting in hand-out $$ from the state.
ORDA seems to often obscure their visit numbers by blending the skiing and other sites. In general something along the lines of an $80 subsidy per visitor is likely last year. Though probably much higher than that amount for the ski areas which receive unbelievable capital subsidies for lifts that sometimes aren't actually even needed (eg the Notch at Whiteface). So if you have a pass or buy a ticket you are paying a much smaller fraction of the actual costs than at other ski areas you visit.
ORDA seems to often obscure their visit numbers by blending the skiing and other sites. In general something along the lines of an $80 subsidy per visitor is likely last year. Though probably much higher than that amount for the ski areas which receive unbelievable capital subsidies for lifts that sometimes aren't actually even needed (eg the Notch at Whiteface). So if you have a pass or buy a ticket you are paying a much smaller fraction of the actual costs than at other ski areas you visit.
You're teasing me now right?
I don't have to imagine. Laz and I have this discussion 5 or 6 times each season. I've ghost penned letters to the editor for him on the topic.
From my 2010 FTO interview where I state EMSC's point verbatim. I bolded below what would have to happen to make that possible.
Q: Some feel that states shouldn’t be in the ski business and that Belleayre should be leased out to a private operator.
Joe Kelly: The state is in the ski business because the people of New York approved a specific amendment to the constitution in the late 1940s. And they underscored that decision by voting to expand Belleayre in 1987. In short, Belleayre exists because of the people’s will.
We went through the “lease Belleayre to a private contractor” discussion 10 or 15 years ago, and it keeps popping back up. I think that it would be extremely unlikely because a constitutional amendment would have to be passed not once, but twice by the legislature. The people who keep bringing it up as an option – and they often point to Sunapee in New Hampshire as a blueprint – don’t understand how specific Article 14 is. New York State has very strict laws concerning the forest preserve, which is great for maintaining the natural beauty in this region, but not so great for people trying to live and raise families here.
Q: Some feel that states shouldn’t be in the ski business and that Belleayre should be leased out to a private operator.
Joe Kelly: The state is in the ski business because the people of New York approved a specific amendment to the constitution in the late 1940s. And they underscored that decision by voting to expand Belleayre in 1987. In short, Belleayre exists because of the people’s will.
We went through the “lease Belleayre to a private contractor” discussion 10 or 15 years ago, and it keeps popping back up. I think that it would be extremely unlikely because a constitutional amendment would have to be passed not once, but twice by the legislature. The people who keep bringing it up as an option – and they often point to Sunapee in New Hampshire as a blueprint – don’t understand how specific Article 14 is. New York State has very strict laws concerning the forest preserve, which is great for maintaining the natural beauty in this region, but not so great for people trying to live and raise families here.
Patrick
Well-known member
Not saying that it's good or bad, but look at the Mont Ste-Anne experience. Public land, ski area was at one point taken over by the Province until it was sold to RCR. Since then MSA has been decline and finally having some backlash after the gondola failure fiasco.
I had no idea that MSA was run by the province for a period of time -- from when until when? That's an interesting example of how having a private operator take over a ski area doesn't always work.
If I still lived in NYC (moved to NC in the early 1970s), I doubt I'd get a season pass to Plattekill. But would keep an eye on the weather for a potential Friday or two after a storm system went through. Happened to catch a day like that at the end of a northeast ski safari.
The Indy Pass makes the Berkshires a decent deal for Berkshire East and Catamount. Especially now that the new lift construction is all done at Catamount. Berkshire East's location means it doesn't really get that crowded even on a holiday weekend. I had a good time with friends there on the Sunday of Pres. Day weekend several years ago.
I like Jiminy Peak, but it's on the pricey side unless live close enough to get a Twilight pass. Night skiing starts at 3pm and goes until 9 or 10. For midweek skiing, the fact that there is a high-speed detachable that cover 80% of the terrain is a plus. JP has a completely different vibe from Plattekill. JP feels like a "ski resort" not an independent ski area. I stay at the timeshare resort that is slopeside. There is another timeshare complex across the road. Plus JP has quite a big of slopeside lodging from hotel rooms at the lodge to cabins good for families.
Plattekill, February 22, 2022
ChrisC
Well-known member
I always thought Hunter Mountain was a necessary evil pre-Christmas if you wanted any terrain diversity.
Most Catskill, Berkshire, and Pocono mountains could only open up to 2-5 WRODs during the early season. Hunter had the management philosophy and snowmaking capacity to get nearly 2-4x the amount of terrain.
The late season was a different story since artificial snow lasts longer, and the amount of terrain open during March was more equivalent.
Most Catskill, Berkshire, and Pocono mountains could only open up to 2-5 WRODs during the early season. Hunter had the management philosophy and snowmaking capacity to get nearly 2-4x the amount of terrain.
The late season was a different story since artificial snow lasts longer, and the amount of terrain open during March was more equivalent.
When I used Google Maps to compare distances from East Orange, NJ I used Plattekill, which has the same drive time as Jiminy. The other Catskill areas Hunter, Wndham and Belleayre (only checked that just now) are nearly half an hour closer, matched only by Catamount iunb the Berkshires.
So this explains not only why the Catskills are more popular among NYC day skiers, but also why Plattekill is the least crowded being farthest distance.
I get this mentality due to SoCal analogies. I will nearly always take the shorter drive to Mt. High vs. Big Bear if equivalent terrain is open. But this is often not true due to disparity in snowmaking power.
Does that mean 24/7 below freezing temperatures for 9 days? I've always wondered how Hunter's snowmaking power compares to Big Bear. I do not recall Big Bear going from 0-100% in 9 days with no natural snow, but I think that's climatology. I have no recollection of that scenario in Big Bear ever. Consecutive days of 24/7 snowmaking is almost never more than 3-4 and that pattern typically ensues following a natural snow event. The common mid to late December pattern is something like 25-80% with say 6 inches natural snow following by 2-3 days of 24/7 below freezing. Overall season long operation at Big Bear is at least as good as Hunter due to low humidity and much less frequent rain.
Thus strikes me as bizarre. Isn't Mont Ste. Anne a top tier mountain by Quebec standards, plus being extremely close to a metro area? What sensible management would neglect such a place? RCR's overall reputation in western Canada is mediocre I think.
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Patrick
Well-known member
Yes. Yes. and yes.
Patrick
Well-known member
There is a history section on the MSA website, but Wikipedia might picture a less glossy version of history (en français). English isn't as complete. There is some pressure on RCR to sell.
Mont Sainte-Anne — Wikipédia
I realized that I have extensive data, 20 years for Hunter and over 40 for Snow Summit. Percents of terrain open by date:
| Big Bear | 1-Dec | 15-Dec | 1-Jan | 15-Jan | 1-Feb | 15-Feb | 1-Mar | 15-Mar | 1-Apr | 10-Apr |
Average | 22% | 43% | 72% | 85% | 90% | 90% | 89% | 86% | 71% | 38% |
Median | 17% | 38% | 78% | 91% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 90% | 80% | 50% |
75th percentile | 30% | 57% | 97% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 70% |
25th percentile | 9% | 26% | 55% | 75% | 90% | 84% | 86% | 80% | 53% | 0% |
Hunter | 1-Dec | 15-Dec | 1-Jan | 15-Jan | 1-Feb | 15-Feb | 1-Mar | 15-Mar | 1-Apr | 10-Apr |
Average | 16% | 49% | 66% | 72% | 80% | 81% | 78% | 77% | 59% | 26% |
Median | 17% | 58% | 67% | 76% | 79% | 80% | 77% | 78% | 67% | 17% |
75th percentile | 21% | 65% | 82% | 79% | 85% | 87% | 83% | 84% | 71% | 52% |
25th percentile | 7% | 29% | 53% | 65% | 75% | 75% | 70% | 72% | 55% | 0% |
December 15 is the only time frame where Hunter is better, and that by a small margin.
An exaggeration. Hunter is in fact rarely even 90% open, even in peak season. I ascribe this to that bane of Northeast skiing, rain, likely more frequent in the Catskills and CT/MA than farther north.
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jasoncapecod
Well-known member
Hunter is never 100% open. extremely rare
Harv is correct by saying they can get close to all meaningful terrain open on around ten days
Harv is correct by saying they can get close to all meaningful terrain open on around ten days
I assume you're referring to the steeper Hunter West terrain. As you mention, they can get the main face open quickly if so inclined.
jasoncapecod
Well-known member
Yes
trail 44( west way) and Annapurna are fairly opened due the massive amount of snowmaking it takes to get them opened
Google Earth dimensions (length and vertical) are quite similar to Superstar at Killington. I presume this is a statement of a significantly more challenging climate, as nobody ever said Hunter lacks for water. The west exposure can't be good either.
I checked similar vertical Geronimo at Bear Mt. Geronimo is 50% longer because its steeper pitches are just the upper and lower quarter. The middle half is quite mellow. But that's more evidence that Big Bear's climate is overall more favorable for skiing than Hunter's.
Sorry, I consider what's rated black at urban daytrip ski areas meaningful, and in fact I won't make the 2 hour schlep to Big Bear until some of it is open. However, I have skied Superstar several times, and the Google Earth examination confirms Liz' view that Hunter West is a notch above any cut trails at Big Bear in challenge. But that's less relevant if Hunter West is only skiable about as often as Baldy's chair 1.
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I never really though about this. Dolan's Lake is not very big, but I guess it's easily refilled by the Schoharie.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Hunter has two sectors that hold it under 100%:
Hunter West is almost no different from Jiminy Peak: Both have big, Wide, Steep, and Open slopes built for snowmaking. (At one point Jericho was a steep natural snow glade).
Jiminy always opens these trails by mid-January. They have HS Quads and fixed Quads serving them. Those areas are core to its operation. See red highlights.
Hunter West is more of a recent Vail choice. Clair's Way often opens in mid-December. I did see Hunter skip re-opening Westway at times after rain, but Annapurna is mostly a catwalk to a headwall and not overly wide or difficult to open (especially vs. KT22).
Hunter One
Hunter One is a part of Hunter that has seen no love in 40-50 years. It should be re-imagined. Instead, it's a decaying relic.
If OpenSnow calculates % Open via trail counts, Hunter will always come up short since a lot of terrain is not a priority to ever open. It's a bit weird/short-sighted by Hunter Mt, but it's been going on forever any marketeer would just get rid of trails/lifts that never open
- Hunter One—Most of the closed terrain is in this sector. It was a great concept in its day (1970s) - do not develop any beginner terrain in the main Hunter complex, and keep them separated There are lots of trails and lifts that have not been improved since the 1970s/80s.
- Hunter West - Westway and Annapurna. These would typically open by MLK weekend. But Vail seems to not allocate the resources.
Hunter West is almost no different from Jiminy Peak: Both have big, Wide, Steep, and Open slopes built for snowmaking. (At one point Jericho was a steep natural snow glade).
Jiminy always opens these trails by mid-January. They have HS Quads and fixed Quads serving them. Those areas are core to its operation. See red highlights.
Hunter West is more of a recent Vail choice. Clair's Way often opens in mid-December. I did see Hunter skip re-opening Westway at times after rain, but Annapurna is mostly a catwalk to a headwall and not overly wide or difficult to open (especially vs. KT22).
Hunter One
Hunter One is a part of Hunter that has seen no love in 40-50 years. It should be re-imagined. Instead, it's a decaying relic.
- The more newly installed Highland surface lift is a total disaster: - a total state of disrepair. Link I doubt they ever make snow up there, nor should they.
- There are still bad rope tows around there vs. magic carpets.
- Only 2-4 trails see any snowmaking. The rest just sit there - most days there are more closed slopes than open at Hunter one. Highlighted in Red.
- Its lodge is barely open. Might be gone now.
If OpenSnow calculates % Open via trail counts, Hunter will always come up short since a lot of terrain is not a priority to ever open. It's a bit weird/short-sighted by Hunter Mt, but it's been going on forever any marketeer would just get rid of trails/lifts that never open