Northern Vermont Snow Advantage vs. Rest of the Northeast

[Harvey]

If searchability is the reason threads are broken out...somewhere around here:

....The Greens have the hot setup...a north to south running spine. Still I never understood how the Greens can pull more snow out of it after it's passed over the Adks. Lake Champlain? Seems unlikely...but something's happening. Would love to hear opinions or facts on this one.

this thread should be broken out and called whatever Tony thinks. (I think Tony's really good at coming up with new thread titles.) The posts in here...especially Scott's and Jspin's input....I can see wanting to find again. =D> I may post it on my blog to make it easier on me. :-D

 

[Tony Crocker]

this thread should be broken out and called whatever Tony thinks.

At your service. Perhaps Harvey should get a special award. The relocate topic was already a split from a previous Gore expansion topic.

I find it hard to believe that the St. Lawrence would provide much in the way of "lake effect" either.

There is an exception to this generalization. At Le Massif the St. Lawrence River has already opened to the Gulf, maybe 40 miles wide. And if wind somehow comes with an easterly slant, much more fetch than that. Le Massif at 250 inches is not up to the best of northern Vermont, but the "Gulf effect" does give it a snowfall bump over the other Quebec ski areas.

The world capital of "lake effect" must be Niseko/Hokkaido in Japan. Also the northern part of Honshu where that larger island has turned from an east-west to north-south orientation. Lake effect is strongest when the temperature difference between the cold air flowing above the warmer water is maximized. When the air is from mid-winter Siberia and crosses 200 miles of ocean, it probably can't get any better than that.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

A while back, Harvey observed that his thread topics quickly sank to to the bottom... he seems to have rectified that.

 

[Admin]

Air has to be cold (relative to the water temp) and dry. Any easterly hitting Le Massif, rare though that would be, would miserably fail both criteria. However, moisture could flow in from the east on from the wraparound of a coastal low, but lake effect would have nothing at all to do with that.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

 

[jasoncapecod]

The St. Lawrence tends to have quite a bit of ice. That limits any lake effect.

 

[Anthony]

Lots of ice on the St. Lawrence as my full time residence is close to the river west of Montreal . One thing the St. Lawrence does is act as a divider . More chance of rain to the south of the river than to the north. My take on north eastern vt is lots of snow but also lots of rain . You need good timing and flexibility.

 

[icelanticskier]

if we are talking averages here, southern areas hardly got skunked this year as scott stated. it may have not snowed in no vt in march, but south of 89 i skied 2 storms averaging a foot each in march. the past 2 winters have been very snowy in southern areas giving the seacoast of nh a solid ground covering snowpack for 4 or so months each winter.

for tony, canaan valley wv gets a fair bit more snow than snowshoe. it gets more lake effect and averages in the 180-200 inch range from what i've heard. nice area to ski pow actually. quite enchanting.

rog

 

[Patrick]

The St. Lawrence tends to have quite a bit of ice. That limits any lake effect.

I find it hard to believe that the St. Lawrence would provide much in the way of "lake effect" either.

There is an exception to this generalization. At Le Massif the St. Lawrence River has already opened to the Gulf, maybe 40 miles wide. And if wind somehow comes with an easterly slant, much more fetch than that. Le Massif at 250 inches is not up to the best of northern Vermont, but the "Gulf effect" does give it a snowfall bump over the other Quebec ski areas.

Careful Jason, Tony is partially correct, however the Gulf is nowhere near Le Massif. The river doesn't freeze passed Quebec City and once passed l'île d'Orléans (eastern tip is just before Ste-Anne) is widens greatly. The size of the St.Lawrence also varies a few times between Lake Ontario and Trois-Rivières (halfway between MTL and QC City). Admin mentioned Lac St-Pierre close to Tr-Riv, but there is also the 1000 islands region just between Kingston and Cornwall. Cornwall gets hit by several important snow squalls during the winter.

Air has to be cold (relative to the water temp) and dry. Any easterly hitting Le Massif, rare though that would be, would miserably fail both criteria. However, moisture could flow in from the east on from the wraparound of a coastal low, but lake effect would have nothing at all to do with that.

One type of storm system generally follows a NE pattern and moves along the St-Lawrence Valley. Le Massif would definitely get the orographic lift at the start of the Charlevoix region. The Mountain literally fall into the wide St.Lawrence.

Lots of ice on the St. Lawrence as my full time residence is close to the river west of Montreal . One thing the St. Lawrence does is act as a divider . More chance of rain to the south of the river than to the north. My take on north eastern vt is lots of snow but also lots of rain . You need good timing and flexibility.

People that lived in Montreal and skied for many season have observed this firsthand. I remember saying the exact thing to Tony last year (Best place to live topic?) That it's why Montreal is a great place to live (skiing or not), you have the advantage of different systems and conditions within a daytrip ski day from the city (Laurentians or Eastern Townships/Vermont - you can also make it to Whiteface or longer daydrive to NH, ME or Quebec City).

 

[Admin]

Air has to be cold (relative to the water temp) and dry. Any easterly hitting Le Massif, rare though that would be, would miserably fail both criteria. However, moisture could flow in from the east on from the wraparound of a coastal low, but lake effect would have nothing at all to do with that.

One type of storm system generally follows a NE pattern and moves along the St-Lawrence Valley. Le Massif would definitely get the orographic lift at the start of the Charlevoix region. The Mountain literally fall into the wide St.Lawrence.

I don't dispute that for a second, especially on an flow ranging from southeast through east. However, Tony was referring to lake effect, not orographic lift. Given the compass directions involved with the topography I see lake effect at Le Massif as inconceivable.

 

[Patrick]

I don't dispute that for a second, especially on an flow ranging from southeast through east. However, Tony was referring to lake effect, not orographic lift. Given the compass directions involved with the topography I see lake effect at Le Massif as inconceivable.

Again, not a weather guru, but wouldn't it gather along the river following the path of the system and dominate winds with follows the river (SW towards NE)? However you are correct, storm wouldn't move from the order direction where the river is largest and coming from the distant Gulf.

 

[Admin]

Again, not a weather guru, but wouldn't it gather along the river following the path of the system and dominate winds with follows the river (SW towards NE)?

Perhaps that could create what Powderfreak has referred to as lake-enhanced, but that wouldn't be a true lake effect phenomenon. There has to be a significant temperature and humidity delta in order for lake effect to kick in. That's why places like Buffalo and Syracuse get pummeled with lake effect snow on a dramatically cold, dry northwesterly wind, especially early in the winter when the lake is warmer. A southerly, southwesterly or southeasterly wind is, by definition, warm and humid.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The Le Massif analysis was courtesy of Leslie Anthony, dating from my original Powder collaboration back in 1995. Probably some confusion of the "lake effect" with orographics, as in Vermont.

More chance of rain to the south of the river than to the north. My take on north eastern vt is lots of snow but also lots of rain .

In that thread where Patrick and I had one of our usual :sabre fight: he supplied some data from the Laurentians that indicated similar rain incidence to the Mansfield Stake. Presumably Mt. Mansfield altitude offsets Laurentian latitude.

 

[Bluebird Day]

During my College Days I skied in Western NY (Holiday Valley) and although it was often icy, we would ocassionally get dumped on when it got wicked cold with the prevailing west wind. I assume that was lake effect coming off of Ontario [probably Lake Erie, TC]. I was not a big powder fan back then. It may have been my love for running gates and that fact that I skied on Kastle National Teams (SL & GS) that were about 60mm under foot, at best? No float there!!

 

[Tony Crocker]

a dramatically cold, dry northwesterly wind, especially early in the winter when the lake is warmer. A southerly, southwesterly or southeasterly wind is, by definition, warm and humid.

Presumably this explains the lesser effect at Snowshoe; the NW wind is not as dry or cold there as in Vermont. But Siberia/Hokkaido must be the gold standard for cold and dry wind source.

 

[Mike Bernstein]

a dramatically cold, dry northwesterly wind, especially early in the winter when the lake is warmer. A southerly, southwesterly or southeasterly wind is, by definition, warm and humid.

Presumably this explains the lesser effect at Snowshoe; the NW wind is not as dry or cold there as in Vermont. But Siberia/Hokkaido must be the gold standard for cold and dry wind source.

There's also the 500 or so miles of latitude that you lose at Snowshoe. The 4800' summit elevation of Cheat Mountain, while impressive, just isn't enough to make up for that loss of latitude. Perhaps if it were an additional 1000' higher, that would change things, but if frogs had wings....

Also, one additional addendum on J. Spin and Scott's excellent primers herein. It seems that the Clipper systems which are so kind to the Green Mtn. spine are really the product of a "goldilocks" set up geographically and orographically. Most of these systems come in from the the W and NW. As they approach from over the Lake Huron area, their counter-clockwise flow brings an ESE wind over Lakes Erie and Ontario. This pools moisture up into the St. Lawrence Valley just in time for the the cold front associated with the Clipper to bulldoze it into the 4000' wall of the Green Mtn spine.

Between those Clippers, the occasional wrap-around from systems stalled out in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and the coastals, it's no surprise that the Northern Greens represent a sweet spot in terms of snowfall. Even the central and southern Greens are relatively blessed as compared to their neighbors of similar latitude to the East and West, though I think this has more to do with being just close enough to the coast to get in on coastals, but not so far away as to miss the heaviest precip therein.

Lastly, I always wondered whether a sub-range of the Dacks like the Snowy Mtn area west of Indian Lake, or a tall peak in the NE quadrant like Lyon Mtn, would get VT like snows due to good proximity for lake effect (for the former) or good location ala the Green Mtn spine (for the latter). I wouldn't be surprised if either of those locations averaged in the 250" range.

 

[Harvey]

Lastly, I always wondered whether a sub-range of the Dacks like the Snowy Mtn area west of Indian Lake ... I wouldn't be surprised if either of those locations averaged in the 250" range.

Like I said when started this drift, I've watched a lot of winter radar with my eyes glued to this northwestern corner of Warren County ... with the focus on points west in Lake Effect events. No question that there have been times that Snowy and Squaw (and even Bullhead) have pulled the last little bit out of a lake effect plume before it got to Gore. One of my backcountry partners a few years back actually coined the "Bullhead Effect"....a cloud that hung over the mountain during the northwest flow at the end of an event when the rest of the Siamese was in the sun.

At times Gore actually gets some true lake effect, maybe once or twice a season, and lake enhancement is also a factor. To the south, and even to the north the Lake effect will travel farther. I remember one night last year Geoff got a foot or so at Kmart from a LE band that was narrow but unwavering. It passed by just south of here.

 

[skimore]

Lastly, I always wondered whether a sub-range of the Dacks like the Snowy Mtn area west of Indian Lake, or a tall peak in the NE quadrant like Lyon Mtn, would get VT like snows due to good proximity for lake effect (for the former) or good location ala the Green Mtn spine (for the latter). I wouldn't be surprised if either of those locations averaged in the 250" range.

I'd say that 250 number is a fair assessment. Traveling Rte 8 north toward Speculator you can see a noticable difference in snow that starts to tail off the further east you go. Everytime we head to Gore and drive through someone always states how much more snow is on the ground in that area than when we arrive at Gore

A couple pics from Snowy last yr mid Jan

 

[Bushwacker1951]

Being a simple minded fella I think it's all about elevation and how far north the ski hill is. IMHO I think there is some lake effect snow from Lake Champlain but not like the Tug Hill Plateau or other northwestern NY locations. If the LC snow effect was significant than Cochran Ski hill would not have to have battled to have their few slopes covered in the white stuff every year, ultimately forcing them to invest big bucks in snowmaking recently.

Start at Mt Snow, following the spine of the Greens you get more snow the further north you go. It doesn't have be so complicated.

 

[Patrick]

Start at Mt Snow, following the spine of the Greens you get more snow the further north you go. It doesn't have be so complicated.

Which bring the following question, where does the spine end?

 

[Mike Bernstein]

Being a simple minded fella I think it's all about elevation and how far north the ski hill is. IMHO I think there is some lake effect snow from Lake Champlain but not like the Tug Hill Plateau or other northwestern NY locations. If the LC snow effect was significant than Cochran Ski hill would not have to have battled to have their few slopes covered in the white stuff every year, ultimately forcing them to invest big bucks in snowmaking recently.

Start at Mt Snow, following the spine of the Greens you get more snow the further north you go. It doesn't have be so complicated.

No - it's not that simple. If it's not that complicated, why does Okemo, which is both lower in elevation and further south than Whiteface, get 20% more snow? Why does Mt. Snow, at the bottom of VT and topping out at 3600', get more snow than Cannon, near the top of NH and with a peak of 4000'? It's actually MUCH more complicated than you seem to appreciate.

As for Cochrans, a thorough reading of J. Spin and Powderfreak's posts explain why they don't get nearly as much as their big brethren along the spine.