Skiing from Boulder (p.1, then Random Topics)

[EMSC]

Fun topic.

Denver probably averages one inversion a winter, usually in the 2-3 day range when it happens. Sometimes you might get a 2nd or 3rd inversion in a winter, but certainly not often. The brown cloud, when it happens, is much more prevalent in winter, and only when there is little weather occurring (aka no air movement). That said, try hanging out in just about any large city in China if you want to see a real brown cloud of the type that used to be typical in the US too.

Wind blowing strong here today so definitely no cloud today.

As for ski conditions, definitely behind average, but not a blow out for mid-Dec. I'll go out on the limb and say it would only take one decent storm to get most places up to around 50% open. And by one decent storm I mean 4-6" for say three days in a row, which is typically how most of Colo gets it's snow from storms anyway. A fair amount of terrain is close to opening, but just that bit too shallow on what we have right now. Of course if I'm paying the big bucks to fly in from the east for the holidays, 50% open isn't going to be all that great...

So, my family was lucky to have chosen last year for our big Steamboat get together. It was ~98% open by then. Which is higher than Tony's 75th percentile for Steamboat (Isn't that TCS data Tony?).

 

[rsmith]

Contrary to rsmith's assertion, SLC averages precisely 5 days of 100-deg temps each summer, not "weeks."

Also contrary to rsmith's suggestion of multiple 3-week inversions, in 9 years here I've experienced precisely one inversion that lasted longer than 5 days. Nor do we have the implied "many" inversions in a single winter.

OK. I stand (somewhat) corrected, at least on the "weeks" of 100-deg days. 23 days of 95 degree or hotter days, though, makes for a pretty darn hot summer. And, no, low humidity doesn't make things magically comfortable when it's 95 degrees.

On the inversions, though, I will stand my ground. I have too many memories of miserably long winters, red-burn days, breathing in brown/green air, and praying for even the smallest of storms to blow the crap out. SLC is in one as we speak - http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14018542, and it's only December. For the winter months as soon as the last storm exits the next inversion usually begins. Unless it's an unusually stormy winter you're basically guaranteed a succession of many inversions (of varying nastiness) over the course of the season. Inversions of multiple weeks are indeed rare, but it does happen. And when it does, you don't forget it. I would imagine the geography of SLC with a totally enclosed valley lends itself to more (and longer duration) inversions than Denver - I think the number of days the Wasatch Front has the worst air in the nation each winter confirms that.

I'm not knocking SLC at all. I love the place. But if you're going to live there you should know what you're getting into.

 

[Marc_C]

And, no, low humidity doesn't make things magically comfortable when it's 95 degrees.

Um, yes, it does. Google up a heat index calculator and play around. For example:

95F @ 6%RH = 90F effective temp
85F @ 70%RH = 93F
85F @ 90%RH = 102F

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Um, yes, it does. Google up a heat index calculator and play around.

Of course, adding humidity to heat makes it far more miserable, but his basic point is correct, and my four summers in Albuquerque are my anecdotal evidence. Once it hits 95, the "it's a dry heat" bollox doesn't make a difference.

 

[Admin]

Once it hits 95, the "it's a dry heat" bollox doesn't make a difference.

I respectfully disagree. I was far more miserable in upstate NY at 90 than I've ever been here at 100. I don't ever want to go back to that crap. I won't ever go back to that crap. And unlike the East Coast, if it's too hot for me here I have only to drive 5 miles to gain 4,000 feet of elevation and lose 20 degrees.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I was far more miserable in upstate NY at 90 than I've ever been here at 100. I don't ever want to go back to that crap. I won't ever go back to that crap. And unlike the East Coast, if it's too hot for me here I have only to drive 5 miles to gain 4,000 feet of elevation and lose 20 degrees.

No one's trying to convince you to leave Utah or make you think less of where you presently live. We could be talking about Phoenix or San Bernardino. Try, just try, not to turn everything into an East/West food fight.

 

[Tony Crocker]

So, my family was lucky to have chosen last year for our big Steamboat get together.

Not really. 25th percentile for Steamboat is 95% open. Only one year (1998-99 at 65%) out of 20 under 80%.

Of course if I'm paying the big bucks to fly in from the east for the holidays, 50% open isn't going to be all that great...

Especially if you're an advanced skier, because we all know what most of that 50% will be. Christmas week medians are in the 75% range in Summit County and 90+% at the most reliable places.

It's an unusual pattern this year as the southern and western Colorado areas are all average or better in snowfall and probably open terrain. Snowmass is 50% open and Ajax/Highlands 75%. That's high for them this early.

... my four summers in Albuquerque are my anecdotal evidence. Once it hits 95, the "it's a dry heat" bollox doesn't make a difference.

Yes but that's just the middle of the day. At 4,000 feet and low humidity I'll bet the mornings and evenings are quite pleasant. Humid climates can suck 24/7.

Phoenix or San Bernardino.

also have the

gain 4,000 feet of elevation and lose 20 degrees

within an hour's drive.

 

[Admin]

Try, just try, not to turn everything into an East/West food fight.

Oh, I'm not. It's just that IMHO your statement about a dry 95 degrees is . And you know me well enough that I call when I hear any.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Oh, I'm not.

Uh huh. Someone's doth protesting too much... sounds like a conversation you're carrying over from the kitchen. :-D

 

[Admin]

Oh, I'm not.

Uh huh. Someone's doth protesting too much... sounds like a conversation you're carrying over from the kitchen. :-D

Uh huh. Sounds like someone has such an East Coast inferiority complex that they think everything has to be an East/West food fight. :lol:

 

[TRam]

Living in South Florida I can attest to high humidity, heat index is a pretty good rep of what it feels like. And 90deg puts you right around 100 and maybe higher.

I don't disagree, either. But mostly I wanted to hear TRam's explanations, in particular the "lots more to do" comment.

MarcC- YOu really thought my statement was that outlandish? Anyway, my folks live over on the 3900 blk in holiday and my siter lives in Wash Park area of Denver, I have lived out there, and visit both places reguarly. I am planning on spending 4weeks in July working around Deer Valley this summer and will get to experience more of New slc in the summer ( havnt been to SLC in summer since 97).
Denver is far superier in layout/neighboorhoods , public trans, art and culture, far better pro sports, far better nightlife, far better dining. WEather seems slightly better warmer winter and cooler summer. Parks and rec in both towns is very good from what I hear. Schools are good in both areas. I dunno, whatever
Anyway the topic was about skiing, and Tony ranks, where based on skiing out off these metro areas. I know members of this board are die hard skiers and care mostly about that, but reality is 95% of your time is in the city if you live and work there.

 

[rfarren]

And unlike the East Coast, if it's too hot for me here I have only to drive 5 miles to gain 4,000 feet of elevation and lose 20 degrees.

It's a fair and valid point albeit not entirely true. Drive 5 miles from lake placid and you are on the top of whiteface, thats about 3,300 feet of elevation and some 20 degrees. However, it's not too functional if you don't live in a place near the mountains, i.e. NY.

I think the more important point is: at night on even the hottest days it cools down by some 30 degrees. That doesn't happen anywhere east of the mississippi. Furthermore, the lack of humidity at night means it really is cool air and not too sticky, so you can forego the ac, and just stick with a fan.

 

[Admin]

I actually don't even have a/c. I've got a swamp cooler that works on the hottest of days, and I turn it off by dinner time when the canyon winds kick in.

And while you're technically correct, let's not kid ourselves...your ability to do stuff atop Whiteface is very, very limited. I'm talking about lots and lots of square miles at elevation. Even at 6,900 feet the broad expanse of the Park City/Kamas area is 10-15 degrees cooler and 15 minutes from home.

We had no a/c in college in the Albany area, and I remember more than one night when my then-girlfriend and I couldn't sleep in the heat and actually checked into the nearby Super 8 Motel to get a good night's sleep.

 

[Marc_C]

MarcC- YOu really thought my statement was that outlandish?

No, just wanted some grounding and context around it. And I disagree about Denver having better dining - it may have more simply because of the size difference, but better? No. Remember how many world class chefs from San Francisco, Chicago, NY, Boston, LA, Seattle, and New Orleans come here because of the proximity to the skiing and climbing.

 

[Tony Crocker]

thats about 3,300 feet of elevation and some 20 degrees.

Not with high humidity it isn't. The temperature drop with elevation is greater when humidity is lower. Very evident during the Santa Ana wind episodes here.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Sounds like someone has such an East Coast inferiority complex that they think everything has to be an East/West food fight. :lol:

Good grief... that's your comeback?

I've got a swamp cooler that works on the hottest of days.

Swamp coolers rule. What a great, incredibly simple invention... too bad we can't used them back here. I always get angry when I see people in desert climates wasting electricity with big, energy-hogging AC units because they feel obligated to turn their house into a meat locker.

 

[TRam]

Marc-Next time I am out I need to go out to eat with you guys. To my dad the barbuque place down by Costco is fine dining.

James- Believe it or not we use swamp coolers down here in Fl in some garages and warehouses I have been in. While they dont work as effectivly they do feel nice but make the air even more damp, in NY I might imagine they work even better.

Well off to work, its 76 and raining cold front headed our way tommarrow, look for temps in the low 40's with 30's around the lake high around 68 ,brrrr.

 

[Marc_C]

Marc-Next time I am out I need to go out to eat with you guys. To my dad the barbuque place down by Costco is fine dining.

While not fine dining, Q4U and Famous Dave's are both excellent BBQ!
Let us know when you're in town.

 

[rsmith]

http://www.airnow.gov/ is a good reference for air quality. You can see that the Wasatch Front is in an inversion that will likely get worse and worse until next week's storm (if it materializes). Those vaunted mountain views are already in a murky haze... Interesting that the Tahoe region also seems to be socked in. Denver/Boulder looks clear.

I would definitely agree that SLC is impossible to beat as the best metro area in terms of maximizing powder days. However, in return you've got to live in that soup of foul air. Not only that, but you get to look forward to temps barely above freezing while you're gasping for breath. There's few places worse in the U.S. to be in during an SLC inversion... And my experience of living there for 25 years is that inversions happen many times per winter (this is already at least the second this winter, and I guarantee there will be more). Note that the inversion itself isn't too bad (just cold with low visibility) - it's the pollution that can't escape that really sucks. Unfortunately Utah, due to it's conservative-leaning government and reliance on heavy manufacturing, will likely be one of the last places in the country to put into place any sort of regulations that would potentially help out.

My conclusion is that the best base location for skiing is actually somewhere like Laguna Beach, CA. Stick with me here. Perfect weather, no smog, beautiful surroundings, access to a huge metro area with every amenity you could ever want . All you need to do is make a hell of a lot of money so a) you can live there, and b) you can jump on a plane out of LAX as soon as a storm hits and be at Alta (or Whistler, Jackson, the Selkirks, etc.) a few hours later. It's all so simple... O

 

[rfarren]

My conclusion is that the best base location for skiing is actually somewhere like Laguna Beach, CA. Stick with me here. Perfect weather, no smog, beautiful surroundings, access to a huge metro area with every amenity you could ever want . All you need to do is make a hell of a lot of money so a) you can live there, and b) you can jump on a plane out of LAX as soon as a storm hits and be at Alta (or Whistler, Jackson, the Selkirks, etc.) a few hours later. It's all so simple... O

Why not Lyon France? It's 1 hour from the Alps. No superficial culture (i.e. that show laguna beach :lol: :shock: ), close to the alps, and it's the capital of France's culinary scene. The weather is pretty good, and if it's too cold drive 1 1/2 hours to nice. Oh yeah, and health care is free.