Some pics from today (Mt Bachelor)

[schubwa]

Fun turns on the Cinder Cone today...

This is the base area (6300 foot elevation) with the Pine Martin chair front and center. It's amazing how we get such dependable snow at this elevation. You'd have to be at nearly 9000 feet or more in the Rockies to have comparable conditions today.

Here is Dutchman Flat looking at the mountain. I went classic skiing today as I was short on time and the snow isn't at the solid one foot plus depth to avoid hitting hidden "aa lava" rocks. That's my rule, I figure at 57 I have had many fine pow days and don't want to drydock on Day 2.

Here is 90 degrees of a 360 degree volcanic cone. All my favorite stuff is not in this picture. And I'm not telling you where that is unless you come out here and try this place.

Well, back to work. Today was a good day. I'm going to a Mt Bachelor Master Plan meeting tomorrow night. Should be interesting.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Here is 90 degrees of a 360 degree volcanic cone. All my favorite stuff is not in this picture.

Most underrated mountain in North America IMHO. At the top of the list for BOTH early and late season reliability. Too bad management doesn't share Mammoth's attitude about taking advantage of that.

 

[schubwa]

Most underrated mountain in North America IMHO.

Sometimes it's OK to be the underdog. Less folks=more for us. It's not like I haven't tried to get the word out...

At the top of the list for BOTH early and late season reliability.

Plus I think most people think we have wet snow, all the time. My mantra is: "Everyday is a powder day at Mt Bachelor". So far I'm 2/2 this season! (Non-scientific study)

Too bad management doesn't share Mammoth's attitude about taking advantage of that.

Touche! It was a crying shame to see the best (lift accessed) corn in recorded history (2007-2008) go unridden (at least officially and on Mt Bachelor). I think we opened a few times with this much snow, and it was pretty good. But that was after the official open date, like last season. Some seasons we have feet at this time in October and are still weeks away from opening. But there is always the good (for you), old fashioned way to enjoy the snow, hike it.

Ps: At least you get it Tony.

 

[rfarren]

Gorgeous, just gorgeous shots.

 

[DJAK]

Great shots. Needless to say I was sad that I had to be in Corvallis today instead of office/cone. See ya at the meeting. Should be interesting.

Season length - you are right there is a modest disagreement between those who run the mountain and a core group of skiers who ski/live it. We are proud to have one of the longest seasons and latest closing dates in the country. Of course that core group would prefer it to be THE longest, period. We get that, and will continue to look into ways (like additional race training) to make it not simply a resource burner to go well past Mid-May. Sure it was fun in the past in June (on the days wx cooperated), but was it smart - that's debatable. IE - why the majority of areas close with feet of base in April (skiing public overall dissapears). Looking forward to years of that chat. 8-[

Marc - sorry it took me 6 years of reading your forum to actually grab my handle (I guess it's because it's so well run). And again, great pics, and I have appreciated reading the Schwub and TC comments over time. Hope ya'll have enjoyed some of the year 1 communications style changes at Mt B.

AK

 

[Admin]

Fantastic to see you here, DJAK! Some posts have been quite critical of Bachelor in prior seasons, and I'm grateful that you took the effort to step up here.

Marc - sorry it took me 6 years of reading your forum to actually grab my handle (I guess it's because it's so well run).

Flattery will get you everywhere.

 

[DJAK]

Fantastic to see you here, DJAK! Some posts have been quite critical of Bachelor in prior seasons, and I'm grateful that you took the effort to step up here.

Marc - sorry it took me 6 years of reading your forum to actually grab my handle (I guess it's because it's so well run).

Flattery will get you everywhere.

Oh trust me, if anyone slogs through the ills of "prior seasons" in their daily and nightly life, it's me. Thankfully not much slogging going on in regards to last season/coming season (all I can really control). Pass sales are up too - so we did something right. Years to go tho..

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Gorgeous pix.

I've never been within 500 miles of Bachelor... why does it have a "Flat-chelor" reputation? Maybe that's a TGR thing. Looks nice to me.

 

[schubwa]

why does it have a "Flat-chelor" reputation?

There is some truth to this, but I think the reputation started back in the days before the Summit Chair, and stuck. After the NWX Chair was added, most people stopped grousing about the lack of steeps. If it were a perfect world, I'd love to have more really scary steeps here, but it was not meant to be. I will add that on hard pack groomer days on skis, it can seem pretty tame. But on soft days, which are very common here, the natural terrain and open trees make for some happy people! There are very few ski areas in North America that have the kind of open, alpine bowls and ridges we have above timberline.

Of course that core group would prefer it to be THE longest, period. We get that, and will continue to look into ways (like additional race training) to make it not simply a resource burner to go well past Mid-May.

Unknown to most folks, Mt Bachelor HAS been open before and after the official dates. But you had to be a Nordic skier. Last season they allowed access so the local nordic tribe could groom Century Drive adjacent to the ski area. There was only inches, but it skied great and we had camps running, Masters sweating and teams training while the alpine side sat waiting for more snow. The past two seasons, the ski area actually used their cats to groom on the regular Nordic terrain for the use of the US Ski Team Nordic squad. This was in June, and there was still ten feet or more on the ground at that time. There are rumors of the US Alpine Team coming, which would be after mid-May on lift served terrain, of course. DJAK, is this possible?

Hope ya'll have enjoyed some of the year 1 communications style changes at Mt B.

Thanks for the noticable and positive changes, and it's not all communication, you've listened and made some real progress.

 

[Tony Crocker]

why does it have a "Flat-chelor" reputation?

Good question. I think it's due to being a very large area with a limited amount of super steep terrain. The proportion of terrain by ability level is similar to Vail, as estimated by the resort guides I wrote for Inside Tracks in the late 1990's.
Area Yellow Black Red Blue Green
Vail 2% 22% 33% 29% 14%
Bachelor 3% 18% 44% 26% 9%
The addition of Blue Sky Basin since then probably makes the proportions even closer.

The key IMHO to defining an area as "flat" is the proportion above and below the red/blue (upper vs. lower intermediate) split. Below it terrain is likely to have enough flat spots to be of marginal use in powder, and also more likely to be sticky in spring conditions. This is not an issue at all at Bachelor. The entire Summit cone is red, as is the majority of terrain on the western side of the lower mountain. The eastern side from Skyliner to Sunrise is mostly blue.

Compare to places like Keystone and Northstar (not to mention quite a few in the East that I hear about) and Mt. Bachelor is definitely not flat.

 

[Mike Bernstein]

Season length - you are right there is a modest disagreement between those who run the mountain and a core group of skiers who ski/live it. We are proud to have one of the longest seasons and latest closing dates in the country. Of course that core group would prefer it to be THE longest, period. We get that, and will continue to look into ways (like additional race training) to make it not simply a resource burner to go well past Mid-May. Sure it was fun in the past in June (on the days wx cooperated), but was it smart - that's debatable. IE - why the majority of areas close with feet of base in April (skiing public overall dissapears). Looking forward to years of that chat. 8-[

As your peers at Killington are continuing to discover, there is tremendous marketing value in building a brand focused on first to open/last to close. Aside from being a good thing to do for your passholders, it gets all sorts of free press and makes Bachelor seem like "the place to be" in the PNW during the early (before X-Mas) and late (after St. Patty's Day) season. Why is Bachelor so underrated as Tony says? In the eyes of many, it's just another ski area on the PNW. One very easy way to get the word out is to use its advantages in terms of snowfall and preservation to your benefit. Looking at these matters strictly on a daily P&L basis is the height of myopia, IMO, and shows a complete lack of marketing vision.

 

[icelanticskier]

killington no more. sunday river is walking the walk now and has been for some time.

rog

 

[schubwa]

Looking at these matters strictly on a daily P&L basis is the height of myopia, IMO, and shows a complete lack of marketing vision.

Go Mike!

Can you make the Mt Bachelor Master Plan meeting tonight at the Boys & Girls Club? \/

 

[Mike Bernstein]

killington no more. sunday river is walking the walk now and has been for some time.

rog

That's what I mean. The proof is in Killington's ever-declining skier visit figures and market share.

 

[Mike Bernstein]

Looking at these matters strictly on a daily P&L basis is the height of myopia, IMO, and shows a complete lack of marketing vision.

Go Mike!

Can you make the Mt Bachelor Master Plan meeting tonight at the Boys & Girls Club? \/

Wish I lived close enough to even consider it.

 

[DJAK]

Gents - for some context, I worked and skied at K when it was first to open and last to close (late 90's - early 00's), I also orchestrated the marketing around a few SR first to opens. None of this is new. I've seen both sides as a skier and as management. It's not a foregone conclusion that staying open until July for chest thump is worth it.

The idea that Bachelor is somehow unknown (which I would disagree on - but separate topic) is due to a May (early to you - late to everyone else) closing date is very debateable. As compared to other "destination" spots, we are a lone ski area (not a hot spot with 10), with no lodging on mtn, no from airport transporatation, without flights from major skiless hubs. That has far more to do with our "place" on the national pole, than a closing date that is one of the latest in the country, rather than the latest in the country.

I agree that it would be cool - and maybe with the right training mix - it can occur, but the "do it for the PR" argument doesn't float it alone - and I'm in PR.

Last year we had a feature story in SKI, feature articles in USA Today and SF Chronicle, Fortune Mag column, and just now Nat Geo explorer called our pricing the most revolutionary offer of the year. Being open a few weeks longer in the spring for a trickle of guests on nice days is not the only way to put a mtn "on the map." Would it help? Sure. Is it the end-all that some profess. IMHO - Nope.

*Edited to add postscript
Mike - I just read the "complete lack of marketing vision" statement. Ouch. I guess we know that we are a #fail without your pet issue resolved in your favor - regardless of the info presented to you. Not a very collaborative way to acheive results. We are looking at ways to make it make sense in reality, not just for chest thump, as I have said. We disagree on the "complete lack of marketing vision" statement. But that's ok.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Give credit to DJAK for coming on here. If he's been reading my comments for 6 years, he's knows that I've been scathing at times. The reason I :dead horse: is because I think Mt. Bachelor is an incredible skiing resource and it pained me to see it decline. After my 1990, 1993 and 2000 visits I often described Bachelor to others as "the Vail of the Northwest," with one of the best high speed lift systems and grooming anywhere and similar mix/expanse of terrain.

"Complete lack of marketing vision" is if anything an understatement of what went on at Bachelor from 2003 to 2007. "Complete train wreck" in terms of management and community relations would be more like it. Powdr Corp sold off a lot of the grooming equipment and we started to hear about lift reliability issues. Bachelor's 2006-07 skier visits declined when the PNW overall had record skier visits. That and the lift maintenance issues finally attracted Powdr Corp's attention and from Schubwa's comments much progress has been made in turning things around the past year or so. Hopefully DJAK is contributing to that.

Despite Bachelor's attributes, I believe Powdr Corp has decided that Mt. Bachelor will never be more than a regional resort due primarily to not having on the mountain lodging. Mammoth also struggles with the airport/access issue for national visitors, though the Redmond airport connections are much better than Mammoth's.

With regard to the late season, I'm sure DJAK already knows that the race teams can be the solution there. Mt. Bachelor has way more usable vertical and terrain than TImberline and a more consistent late season than Mammoth. So, yes I see that as a marketing issue because Mt. Bachelor does have the best product for the race teams. My other beef about late season is cutting the closing hours back to 1:30PM on April 20. That's a total deal-breaker for me if I'm considering flying up from SoCal. And it's ridiculous when it's often still snowing in late April. Mammoth has the same reduced lift operations at that time frame , but the hours are scaled based upon snow conditions. Usually 3PM close until at least mid-May and often Memorial Day, 2PM late May early June is typical. And if they get new snow they run a longer day.

Mammoth runs its mountain based upon what's on the ground, not the calendar. That also applied to the October openings this year and 5 years ago.

 

[Mike Bernstein]

Give credit to DJAK for coming on here. If he's been reading my comments for 6 years, he's knows that I've been scathing at times. The reason I :dead horse: is because I think Mt. Bachelor is an incredible skiing resource and it pained me to see it decline. After my 1990, 1993 and 2000 visits I often described Bachelor to others as "the Vail of the Northwest," with one of the best high speed lift systems and grooming anywhere and similar mix/expanse of terrain.

"Complete lack of marketing vision" is if anything an understatement of what went on at Bachelor from 2003 to 2007. "Complete train wreck" in terms of management and community relations would be more like it. Powdr Corp sold off a lot of the grooming equipment and we started to hear about lift reliability issues. Bachelor's 2006-07 skier visits declined when the PNW overall had record skier visits. That and the lift maintenance issues finally attracted Powdr Corp's attention and from Schubwa's comments much progress has been made in turning things around the past year or so. Hopefully DJAK is contributing to that.

Despite Bachelor's attributes, I believe Powdr Corp has decided that Mt. Bachelor will never be more than a regional resort due primarily to not having on the mountain lodging. Mammoth also struggles with the airport/access issue for national visitors, though the Redmond airport connections are much better than Mammoth's.

With regard to the late season, I'm sure DJAK already knows that the race teams can be the solution there. Mt. Bachelor has way more usable vertical and terrain than TImberline and a more consistent late season than Mammoth. So, yes I see that as a marketing issue because Mt. Bachelor does have the best product for the race teams. My other beef about late season is cutting the closing hours back to 1:30PM on April 20. That's a total deal-breaker for me if I'm considering flying up from SoCal. And it's ridiculous when it's often still snowing in late April. Mammoth has the same reduced lift operations at that time frame , but the hours are scaled based upon snow conditions. Usually 3PM close until at least mid-May and often Memorial Day, 2PM late May early June is typical. And if they get new snow they run a longer day.

Mammoth runs its mountain based upon what's on the ground, not the calendar. That also applied to the October openings this year and 5 years ago.

Quoted for truth. That said, I certainly applaud DJAK's presence here and am more than willing to engage in a constructive dialogue. Let's just say that Bachelor in particular, and POWDR in general, start from a bit behind the 8 ball with me personally b/c of all the comedic missteps over the last 6-7 years. To the extent that you are turning that around, bravo. In a similar sense, it seems that Mr. Nyberg at Killington is also getting a clue and returning to what made that mountain so great and so successful prior to the ASC malaise years (even if he claims it was just poor communication - ha!). Surely there are differences between those mountains as you rightly pointed out, but I will stand by the notion that looking at late/early season ops from a pure P&L perspective does belie a lack of marketing vision. The bills have to be paid - I'm a businessman and I get that - but the business of destination skiing is as much (if not more) about exciting our soul as it is about selling a product.

Having lived on the EC my entire life until this year, the early season places I always heard about were Loveland and A-Basin. As a result, they were much higher on my radar and in my consciousness when making a destination skiing decision, despite the fact that those two areas combined don't hold a candle to Bachelor. Now of course they benefit from the halo effect from being a few miles down the road from monsters like Keystone, Breck and Copper, but they also get a LOT of free pub nationwide for what they do. Another example - Mammoth opening for all of three days last week after the storm. Given that they offered free skiing on one of those three days, I doubt they made much money. But I tell you what - they earned a hell of a lot of respect from me as a new skier to the SoCal area. It's clear that by "going for it", even with a short window, they care about the skiers. Lots of credit in the bank from this customer, and I haven't even been up there yet. Measure that.

 

[ChrisC]

these matters strictly on a daily P&L basis is the height of myopia, IMO, and shows a complete lack of marketing vision.

I agree. I've written about this.

My first reaction when getting off the Summit lift on my first time visit - April powder day in 2000 -- 'This is 360 skiable. They do not market the entire backside. Expletive!"

I do not think people understand the place until they have been there.

 

[Admin]

So, what was the outcome of the master plan meeting?