STOWE prices: Fraud, Ripoff, or Are They Ever Worth It?
- Thread starter C1Speed40
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salida
New member
riverc0il":1ml8g7x1 said:
Steve, yes, to some extent, but I'm also speaking of regular ticket buyers as well.
One point to note, while Jay and MRG do offer "similar" terrain, good luck skiing at either of these places on the weekend and not waiting in a line to ski the prime terrain. At MRG on a weekend you'll be waiting upwards of a half hour to ski the terrain off of the single. At Jay on most occasions you'll be waiting a couple of tram cars to ski the face chutes. Stowe provides a consistent fall line (no staircasing), lift layout, and enough capacity to not wait in prohibitively large lines. And yes they charge a premium for it, however if you want to spend your day skiing the type of terrain we are talking about in northern vermont, instead of standing in line, then one can pay the $22 premium for Stowe.
This being said I think MRG and Jay are superb mountains, lots of fun, and have great snow. But they do not provide what Stowe can, more as a function of simple mountain geography and design, than pricing structure.
To address the marginal cost thoughts, I know as a price conscious skier myself, it is difficult to see a weekend tripling in cost. Come on. Anyways, if I were to pick one marginal cost to increase, it wouldn't be a fancier hotel, it wouldn't be going 80mph instead of 70mph to compromise gas mileage, and it wouldn't be eating a cheapo $10 burger in the lodge, I'd much rather spend my marginal cost bank on skiing itself.
Porter
Hey pahdner, I'm not banging on Stowe. They have good stuff and have every right to charge what they believe to be that stuff's worth. And as a price-conscious skier you have every right to weigh the cost:value equation in any fashion that makes sense to you, though I would suggest that Stowe has some pretty good food options that are probably worth every penny (reality notwithstanding) they're charging...
Steve, yes, to some extent, but I'm also speaking of regular ticket buyers as well.
One point to note, while Jay and MRG do offer "similar" terrain, good luck skiing at either of these places on the weekend and not waiting in a line to ski the prime terrain. At MRG on a weekend you'll be waiting upwards of a half hour to ski the terrain off of the single. At Jay on most occasions you'll be waiting a couple of tram cars to ski the face chutes. Stowe provides a consistent fall line (no staircasing), lift layout, and enough capacity to not wait in prohibitively large lines. And yes they charge a premium for it, however if you want to spend your day skiing the type of terrain we are talking about in northern vermont, instead of standing in line, then one can pay the $22 premium for Stowe.
This being said I think MRG and Jay are superb mountains, lots of fun, and have great snow. But they do not provide what Stowe can, more as a function of simple mountain geography and design, than pricing structure.
To address the marginal cost thoughts, I know as a price conscious skier myself, it is difficult to see a weekend tripling in cost. Come on. Anyways, if I were to pick one marginal cost to increase, it wouldn't be a fancier hotel, it wouldn't be going 80mph instead of 70mph to compromise gas mileage, and it wouldn't be eating a cheapo $10 burger in the lodge, I'd much rather spend my marginal cost bank on skiing itself.
Porter[/quote]
Steve, yes, to some extent, but I'm also speaking of regular ticket buyers as well.
One point to note, while Jay and MRG do offer "similar" terrain, good luck skiing at either of these places on the weekend and not waiting in a line to ski the prime terrain. At MRG on a weekend you'll be waiting upwards of a half hour to ski the terrain off of the single. At Jay on most occasions you'll be waiting a couple of tram cars to ski the face chutes. Stowe provides a consistent fall line (no staircasing), lift layout, and enough capacity to not wait in prohibitively large lines. And yes they charge a premium for it, however if you want to spend your day skiing the type of terrain we are talking about in northern vermont, instead of standing in line, then one can pay the $22 premium for Stowe.
This being said I think MRG and Jay are superb mountains, lots of fun, and have great snow. But they do not provide what Stowe can, more as a function of simple mountain geography and design, than pricing structure.
To address the marginal cost thoughts, I know as a price conscious skier myself, it is difficult to see a weekend tripling in cost. Come on. Anyways, if I were to pick one marginal cost to increase, it wouldn't be a fancier hotel, it wouldn't be going 80mph instead of 70mph to compromise gas mileage, and it wouldn't be eating a cheapo $10 burger in the lodge, I'd much rather spend my marginal cost bank on skiing itself.
Porter[/quote]
salida
New member
Steve@JPR, Thanks for the replies. It really is great to see industry reps on the boards actively weighing in on these topics.
Besides all of my nonsense about value versus terrain etc. I think Jay is a great mountain with a great product. Not to mention that one can ski it for a great price.
Not to change my tune, but the price conscious skier could also see: For the non-triple majors or non college students out there, and pass holders from other mountains, you can get a day ticket, and day of the week at Jay for 40 bucks. I would argue that this is one of the best deals out there, and certainly the best "value" for your money. There is absolutely no way Stowe is worth twice the price of Jay.
NOTE, also in my above posts, I was speaking to Steve (riverc0il), not Steve@JPR, but thanks for the response from Jay none-the-less!
Besides all of my nonsense about value versus terrain etc. I think Jay is a great mountain with a great product. Not to mention that one can ski it for a great price.
Not to change my tune, but the price conscious skier could also see: For the non-triple majors or non college students out there, and pass holders from other mountains, you can get a day ticket, and day of the week at Jay for 40 bucks. I would argue that this is one of the best deals out there, and certainly the best "value" for your money. There is absolutely no way Stowe is worth twice the price of Jay.
NOTE, also in my above posts, I was speaking to Steve (riverc0il), not Steve@JPR, but thanks for the response from Jay none-the-less!
I am in general in agreement with Porter. It is possible to mix and match costs, paying premium prices for a premium product some of the time (such as Chatter Creek or Extremely Canadian in my case) and skiing very economically other times (most of my Mammoth and Utah trips).
Riverc0il's examples are a bit different. In order to drive the ski costs lower, he's committing to multiple days at one area. For someone driving into Northern Vermont on the spur of the moment to chase a storm (Sharon, Patrick?) I think paying the premium for Stowe on a day basis makes sense given what appears to be a much lower chance of the powder being wind-hammered. Or the weekend crowd logistics that Porter cites.
In other situations the increment in quality over Jay, MRG is modest, maybe not worth the difference to the price sensitive. But I think people like Riverc0il are smart enough to cherry pick the days when the price difference will be worth it.
Since Steve@jpr is here, I'll remind him that Jay's daily snowfall tracker is still not updated past November :wink: .
Riverc0il's examples are a bit different. In order to drive the ski costs lower, he's committing to multiple days at one area. For someone driving into Northern Vermont on the spur of the moment to chase a storm (Sharon, Patrick?) I think paying the premium for Stowe on a day basis makes sense given what appears to be a much lower chance of the powder being wind-hammered. Or the weekend crowd logistics that Porter cites.
In other situations the increment in quality over Jay, MRG is modest, maybe not worth the difference to the price sensitive. But I think people like Riverc0il are smart enough to cherry pick the days when the price difference will be worth it.
Since Steve@jpr is here, I'll remind him that Jay's daily snowfall tracker is still not updated past November :wink: .
Sharon
New member
Tony said:
First, I'd like to say that this was a planned "early-season" trip. I like to take advantage of the early-season pricing and the lighter crowds before the holidays (and also late-season). Cost is an issue for me. Jay is quite affordable. The fact that there is the potential for a major storm \
/ is a HUGE bonus. (I've been dyin to use that icon!).
I really love Stowe, but I only go there in the late season when I'm either with a group getting a group rate or the lift tickets are discounted for the spring. $84 is just out of my league. I will say that the ski experiences I've had at Stowe are not $40 better than the ones I've had at Jay.
Over the years lift tickets at Jay have been heavily discounted with a seasons pass from another mountain purchased at the business office. This is what motivated me and my Greek Peak friends to drive 330 miles to ski some of the most bountiful glades in the east.
First, I'd like to say that this was a planned "early-season" trip. I like to take advantage of the early-season pricing and the lighter crowds before the holidays (and also late-season). Cost is an issue for me. Jay is quite affordable. The fact that there is the potential for a major storm \
/ is a HUGE bonus. (I've been dyin to use that icon!).I really love Stowe, but I only go there in the late season when I'm either with a group getting a group rate or the lift tickets are discounted for the spring. $84 is just out of my league. I will say that the ski experiences I've had at Stowe are not $40 better than the ones I've had at Jay.
Over the years lift tickets at Jay have been heavily discounted with a seasons pass from another mountain purchased at the business office. This is what motivated me and my Greek Peak friends to drive 330 miles to ski some of the most bountiful glades in the east.
Tony Crocker":oble9dhm said:
In Ottawa you can buy a no restriction Jay Peak pass everyday for $42 CDN, taxes all in, from a sports store with 7 locations in the city. So the real cost difference of for us here it's $42 vs. $84, even if you are storm chasing.
http://www.tandl.com/index.html
riverc0il
New member
In regards to terrain, it is really a matter of preference. Personally, I actually prefer hammering the Jet all day compared to 2k at Stowe in which you often can ski 1/3 the mountain just to get to the aspect you really want to ski. Different strokes for different folks there. The only thing that truly separates Stowe from Jay and MRG (IMO) is the hike up to the ridge.
Fact is the best place to ski is the place you KNOW you can get the goods three days after a storm. All other things being equal, I will take a lower price because powder is powder in NoVT. Jay is not as steep as Stowe, I feel Jay retains a lot of Pow that gets skied off pretty quick on the steep stuff. I do not view the stuff off the Tram as Jay's premier terrain. The Tram is for tourists unless you are lining up at 8:10am for first tracks after a storm... which essentially is not waiting for a tram but just waiting for the mountain to open. MRG's single line may be long on a powder day, but some of the best stuff on the mountain is accessible via the Double. And mid-week it is a total no-brainer to hit MRG instead of Stowe even on a powder day, especially on a powder day.
I am not trying to turn this into a "which mountain is better" thread, but just backing up my belief that Stowe is not worth full price compared to other options, especially when other options are 1/4 less without discount and discounts can easily make other options 50% cheaper. I always ski Stowe whenever I can if I can get a discount, season pass be damned.
Regarding Tony's thoughts of someone driving long distance to NoVT for a single day of skiing, still lots of variables. When I lived in MA, I never skied Stowe but I did ski Jay and MRG and Bush, all the same drive times or longer. If you are not going up on the ridge, and especially if you are not a powder hound, Stowe does not hold out for the $80 value. The price tag is there because it is an exclusive mountain and its clientel can afford the price tag. Finally, I would conclude people's perception of "value" greatly depending upon how much disposable income they have at their discretion. You generally don't see many people at Stowe that do not have much disposable income without either a signed letter from the registrar or a season pass.
How many people here would be willing to pay $80 to ski any where? I would hold out on general principle, there are always good alternatives, especially when you know the terrain intimately.
Fact is the best place to ski is the place you KNOW you can get the goods three days after a storm. All other things being equal, I will take a lower price because powder is powder in NoVT. Jay is not as steep as Stowe, I feel Jay retains a lot of Pow that gets skied off pretty quick on the steep stuff. I do not view the stuff off the Tram as Jay's premier terrain. The Tram is for tourists unless you are lining up at 8:10am for first tracks after a storm... which essentially is not waiting for a tram but just waiting for the mountain to open. MRG's single line may be long on a powder day, but some of the best stuff on the mountain is accessible via the Double. And mid-week it is a total no-brainer to hit MRG instead of Stowe even on a powder day, especially on a powder day.
I am not trying to turn this into a "which mountain is better" thread, but just backing up my belief that Stowe is not worth full price compared to other options, especially when other options are 1/4 less without discount and discounts can easily make other options 50% cheaper. I always ski Stowe whenever I can if I can get a discount, season pass be damned.
Regarding Tony's thoughts of someone driving long distance to NoVT for a single day of skiing, still lots of variables. When I lived in MA, I never skied Stowe but I did ski Jay and MRG and Bush, all the same drive times or longer. If you are not going up on the ridge, and especially if you are not a powder hound, Stowe does not hold out for the $80 value. The price tag is there because it is an exclusive mountain and its clientel can afford the price tag. Finally, I would conclude people's perception of "value" greatly depending upon how much disposable income they have at their discretion. You generally don't see many people at Stowe that do not have much disposable income without either a signed letter from the registrar or a season pass.
How many people here would be willing to pay $80 to ski any where? I would hold out on general principle, there are always good alternatives, especially when you know the terrain intimately.
Patrick
Well-known member
Yes, but lift might be on windhold at Stowe. Although Stowe is my fav (tied with the Loaf), chasing storm would see me at MRG, Smuggs or Jay before Stowe if I don't have any deals. Why? Cost is one, the other would be drive time. Smuggs and Jay are much shorter drive from Montreal than Stowe. And if I choose to drive 2 1/2 hours, I would head for Mad instead of Stowe.Tony Crocker":2zaaqcwi said:
Undoubtedly premium prices are mostly driven by the perceived clientele. Thus the absurd (to most of us) fact that tickets at the Park City group are more expensive than at the Cottonwood areas which are vastly superior in both terrain and snow. So I get that Stowe has the upscale reputation in Vermont, and that most FTO readers are unwilling to pay a cent more for that.
The question that I asked in another thread, and which remains unanswered, is whether Stowe's terrain is more reliable on powder days than other Vermont areas. I have a strong impression from numerous FTO reports that Jay and Smuggs are much more likely to be wind-blasted. In terms of topography and exposure MRG looked quite similar to Stowe to me (single = forerunner, double = gondola), though it probably gets somewhat less snow.
Since this thread continues to draw interest, I'm retitling it for clarity.
The question that I asked in another thread, and which remains unanswered, is whether Stowe's terrain is more reliable on powder days than other Vermont areas. I have a strong impression from numerous FTO reports that Jay and Smuggs are much more likely to be wind-blasted. In terms of topography and exposure MRG looked quite similar to Stowe to me (single = forerunner, double = gondola), though it probably gets somewhat less snow.
Since this thread continues to draw interest, I'm retitling it for clarity.
Maybe C1speed40 is the culminating voice of RIF RAF that a higher ticket price keeps away from Stowe. A season pass for a regular skier at Stowe ( 30 days ) averages out to just under $40 day. Regular visitors are certainly welcomed to Stowe, but they are not in the bargain basement peddling discounts for the frugal. It is a top notch resort, putting $400 MIllion in improvements, and that doesn't grow on trees my friend. Happy to pay the increase and reap the benefits of the most advanced snowmaking, a new base lodge, and new high speed lifts!
Sounds like I won't have to deal with the annoyance of C1speed40 either.
See you at Stowe!
Sounds like I won't have to deal with the annoyance of C1speed40 either.
See you at Stowe!
icelanticskier
New member
what he said.
joegm
New member
Tony Crocker said:
exactly tony.. that is exactly right...it's why in the end, stowe is the better hedge if the bottom line is conditions and you are not talking about an isolated indivdual event that you can catch the day it is happening.. obviously then jay is on the same level...otherwise.. no way.. not even close for the exact reason you cite
JayP":3enj19ud said:
C1speed40, are you the muti-millionaire clientele that they are trying to attract to Stowe? The kind of person where money is no object?
I agree with many of the posts that stowe is a great mountain and I love to go there as much as I can.
The problem is they are pricing the normal middle class family out of the market and they are left with the ultra-rich. I would go there a lot more but have to wait until I can score a deal - working advantage, snosearch buses from boston, ski vermont ski 3 pass. The deals to stowe a very few and far between though.
I'm not angry about it (ok maybe a little) It just bumms me out.
asland
riverc0il
New member
Stowe gets blasted with wind too. Not having skied Stowe many times, I think Jay definitely probably gets some fierce wind and is probably worse than Stowe, but Stowe gets hit too. MRG has more protected trails so I suspect wind is not as much of an issue at MRG than Stowe. Fixed grips versus high speeds is a point in the fixed grip favor when the wind blows. MRG gets less snow than Stowe though. Can't speak for Smuggs.
Is Stowe more reliable on powder days is a question I sort of already addressed when I suggested the best mountain out of this lot is the mountain you know the best on a powder day. All on map trails are going to be tracked out within two hours on a weekend at any of these areas, so the typical customer is really not going to notice much difference in regards to how quick the powder goes. All these mountains have secrets and stuff only accessible in exchange for some work. I can't speak for how long that stuff stays around at Stowe, but my reports should attest fresh pow can be found at Jay days after a storm.
Is Stowe more reliable on powder days is a question I sort of already addressed when I suggested the best mountain out of this lot is the mountain you know the best on a powder day. All on map trails are going to be tracked out within two hours on a weekend at any of these areas, so the typical customer is really not going to notice much difference in regards to how quick the powder goes. All these mountains have secrets and stuff only accessible in exchange for some work. I can't speak for how long that stuff stays around at Stowe, but my reports should attest fresh pow can be found at Jay days after a storm.
riverc0il":2vfvog28 said:
Here it also depends on how well other skiers at your mountain know it.
I know MRG extremely well and know where to find the fresh powder there even days after a storm. But you have to know MRG extremely well for this because so many of the regular skiers there also know it really well. Jay and Stowe, otoh, if you have any reasonable familiarity with the place it's not that hard to find spots that most don't know about.
Patrick
Well-known member
That's it right there folks!!!asland":2e5aja6k said:
JayP":2e5aja6k said:
Improvements are in the eye of the beholder. More snowmaking, High speed lifts, base village, etc A few years back there was talked about a High Speed 6 pack replacing the old Sterling double(?) at Smuggs. That isn't an improvement in my books.
Maybe that is why I turn more times south toward MRG when I hit that I-89 exit for Waterbury.