sub par ???

[joegm]

i've been jammed up and need to respond to some posts , like jspins on the monster thread he has going, but real quick this the mad river ski report from today



Updated on Saturday, March 28, 2009 at 06:30:00


It looks like today will be the choice day for what will likely be our last weekend of the season. We are expecting mostly sunny skies with temperatures reaching well into the 50's. We will be offering skiing on about 28 trails off of the Single Chair and the Sunnyside Double, exact trail counts may vary. Skiing surfaces will certainly be soft and forgiving. The cover on the upper mountain remains quite deep and will offer terrific skiing. The lower reaches of the mountain and most of the terrain off of the Sunnyside Double are getting thin for sure with loads of obstacles to challenge Mad River skiers. The Mogul Challenge scheduled for today has been cancelled. Our plans are to operate through Sunday, March 29 and re-open on April 4th for the Cooperative Annual Meeting, if snow cover permits. All season passes will be honored this weekend. Our special spring hours are in effect, which means we plan to spin the lifts from 9:00 AM until 4:30 PM. Come on up and ski it WHILE you can!


i was fearful back in feb, i grew a lot more concerned early this month, and now i know i was right....at least right in terms of what i use as a measurment of a good season....one barometer i use is there are certain lines at wildcat that if they are not open at a certain point, i begin to have serious concerns....another is the mad river glen report...i have been concerned about both of these all season frankly and my fears are coming true.....again, for me, for what im looking for, this is turning out to be a less than average season...whether you want to call that not good, looking at it as the glass half empty, whatever....it is not good and reading that report from MRG today, man, that really bites it....

 

[Tony Crocker]

From what I recall MRG rarely goes past first weekend of April, and the closing weekend rates to be partial operation. Jay, Stowe and Sugarbush are all 90+% open today. So the closings rate to come about a week earlier than normal. Maybe much earlier than the past 2 years, but those were aberrations as I noted before.

I would note that nearly every eastern weekend in March has had the conditions joegm likes best: most terrain open, warmer than normal with softening spring conditions, ideal for moguls. I hope he took advantage. :wink:

The eastern powderhounds have more of a beef, since there's been almost none in March. And perhaps they would have preferred the 6 feet in February to be spread out some to provide more opportunities, rather than all coming at once. That is a problem to which Mammoth skiers can relate.

 

[Geoff]

From what I recall MRG rarely goes past first weekend of April, and the closing weekend rates to be partial operation. Jay, Stowe and Sugarbush are all 90+% open today. So the closings rate to come about a week earlier than normal. Maybe much earlier than the past 2 years, but those were aberrations as I noted before.

I would note that nearly every eastern weekend in March has had the conditions joegm likes best: most terrain open, warmer than normal with softening spring conditions, ideal for moguls. I hope he took advantage. :wink:

The eastern powderhounds have more of a beef, since there's been almost none in March. And perhaps they would have preferred the 6 feet in February to be spread out some to provide more opportunities, rather than all coming at once. That is a problem to which Mammoth skiers can relate.

I had three unimpressive powder days in March but it was still a fantastic month at KMart. There were lots of days with fantastic sunny spring conditions. The north-facing parts of the mountain were typically frozen solid but east-facing terrain softened up most days. Manmade snow takes a long time to melt. There are still plenty of acres with edge-to-edge cover and ample base.

 

[joegm]

From what I recall MRG rarely goes past first weekend of April, and the closing weekend rates to be partial operation. Jay, Stowe and Sugarbush are all 90+% open today. So the closings rate to come about a week earlier than normal. Maybe much earlier than the past 2 years, but those were aberrations as I noted before.

I would note that nearly every eastern weekend in March has had the conditions joegm likes best: most terrain open, warmer than normal with softening spring conditions, ideal for moguls. I hope he took advantage. :wink:

The eastern powderhounds have more of a beef, since there's been almost none in March. And perhaps they would have preferred the 6 feet in February to be spread out some to provide more opportunities, rather than all coming at once. That is a problem to which Mammoth skiers can relate.

I had three unimpressive powder days in March but it was still a fantastic month at KMart. There were lots of days with fantastic sunny spring conditions. The north-facing parts of the mountain were typically frozen solid but east-facing terrain softened up most days. Manmade snow takes a long time to melt. There are still plenty of acres with edge-to-edge cover and ample base.

i could not disagree more.....but you know what , there's no point in arguing because i have finally figured out, and using icelanticskier as an example, it's all relative ....for my crew, march has sucked beyond belief.....if you are looking for bumps, which to me is what 90% of spring skiing is all about, it has been just warm enough by the end of SOME days , to soften up around 2pm but no where near warm enough to be consistently good....i've skied 9 days in march this year....6 have sucked, 1 was ok and 2 were very good but even the very good ones were not full days......i am well versed and aware of how spring skiing works and what goes into the nuances of softening snow....my postion is it has been way too cold for too long throughout the day with a combo of too much cloud cover and very cold temps at night and high winds during the day to result in this " spring skiing " bonanza that some seem to speak of....i've had epic spring skiing years...i know what they are and this isn't one of them, i can tell you that.... but again, that's just my opinion....last week at loon, it was stunning how rock hard the hill was....couldn't even begin to ski any decent bump lines....i've had very few true " corn" days.....and the fact that loon is about 1000 feet lower in elevation than most hill, like K, certainly leads me to believe that it has been even worse else where....another barometer i used , outside of wildcat and MRG is the trail report at stowe... specifically , on a daily basis, what they are doing with chin clip and to a lesser extent , the front four....it has not been good at all....see to me it's all about being on the hill and knowing and seeing first hand....i'll be honest, i thing the board here has been surprisingly dead for first hand reports in the month of march...i'm pretty sure i know why... cause it has sucked....the K zone board has a lot of chatter but that's because it has a lot regulars who post just for sake of posting....i find it funny reading the often completely contradictory reports on surface snow on the K zone board, so i stopped taking that one seriously i while back... i still look at it for entertainment just too see how slanted and spinned some of the reports are on it sometimes....Not all the time, i m not condeming the whole thing,,, just sometimes ....im going tues and wed this week and maybe thurs, depending on what is reconed over at wildcat....i have no expectations at all , to be honest ....


as an aside there is no way anyone can tell me this amount of closures is normal


http://snowsource.com/snowmap.htm

as another aside, heres a clip of the comp course at loon on one of the 2 goods days aforementioned... at the 11 second into 12 mark on a right hand turn , i stuck my left knee into my ribs and i thought i broke them....im still black and blue from it....loon did a fine job with building this course somewhere around march 12th i think...probably the best ive seen them do ...unfortuately , like i said, it's been unskiable most of the time because it's been a sheet of iron

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s-LR_HR ... annel_page

 

[Tony Crocker]

I would assume east-facing Bear Mt. would have been the place to be at Killington.

Nonetheless joegm's comments certainly create an impression that while trails may have been open, only masochists might have wanted to ski some of them.

Another question is whether I should downgrade any of the 4 A weekends in January. While there were no rain or thaw events, I can imagine that much of the snow may not have been packed powder with enough skier traffic and not enough new snow.

The number of eastern TR's on FTO has declined this year. Jspin's are very detailed, but his emphasis on lightly traveled side and backcountry may reflect surface conditions not representative of the range of typical ski trails, even in Northern Vermont.

 

[Patrick]

Nonetheless joegm's comments certainly create an impression that while trails may have been open, only masochists might have wanted to ski some of them.

I cannot speak for Joe or where he skis. I've had a few bad days where the conditions were terrible, but none recently.

I've seen a bunch of great report or comments from this weekend all over Quebec, Jay or Mount Washington on ZSki.

It's true March was a terrible month for powder and fresh snow, but we've had a few early Spring days. You just have to know where to look for them.

Ottawa March total so far:

2009: 3.2 cm (Feb was only 14.8cm)** worst Feb-Mar on record at the Airport weather station (sonce 1939).
2008: 113.4 cm
average: 39.8 cm

Entire year (end of March):

2009: 220 cm
2008: 424.1 cm
average: 235.8 cm

 

[rfarren]

Another question is whether I should downgrade any of the 4 A weekends in January. While there were no rain or thaw events, I can imagine that much of the snow may not have been packed powder with enough skier traffic and not enough new snow.

What I experienced on January 24th was pretty much the norm for whiteface (some pack, some hard, some ice). The personal accounts of the people who are locals told me that the 2 weeks before had been fabulous. They day after I left I think they got snow and I was told by my friends up there that the snow was great too. I just hope the rain doesn't kill the season by next week.

I believe that east coast skiers have a different standard for what they think good snow is. I think east coast skiers generally can be happy with hard pack, or mostly hard pack with a couple of inches on top. If we get really soft snow the conditions are considered fabulous, whereas out west it might be considered normal. If we get powder it is considered exceptional whereas out west it would be considered great(as in "if I miss this storm no worries, the next big one isn't so far off...").

It's amazing to me how when I go to Utah sometimes I'll think the snow is great (fast snow) but the locals will be saying it is the worst day of the year. Personally I don't mind if my edge digs a bit into hard pack, but to some locals out west if they even hear an edge they cry bloody murder.

Do any east coaster agree with my sentiment?

 

[skimore]

I think east coast skiers generally can be happy with hard pack, or mostly hard pack with a couple of inches on top.
Do any east coaster agree with my sentiment?

Not me

 

[Tony Crocker]

Do any east coaster agree with my sentiment?

From what I read here, JSpin seems as much of a powder snob as Larry Schick in Seattle or many Alta locals. It's what he demands, and he's willing to work for it.

Given rfarren's comments and that Vermont snow is almost always softer than Whiteface, I'll let the A grades in January stand.

joegm does have a long and dubious track record of not skiing where the best snow is. Nonetheless his comment about the Stowe website is telling. I did check that Chin Clip and the Front Four were all closed today. If that was true on any prior March weekends, I'd be inclined to downgrade those.

It would also help a lot to read some specifics from Patrick's spring break week. ](*,) We'll be patient with the pics from that. :lol:

 

[Geoff]

i could not disagree more.....but you know what , there's no point in arguing because i have finally figured out, and using icelanticskier as an example, it's all relative ....for my crew, march has sucked beyond belief.....if you are looking for bumps, which to me is what 90% of spring skiing is all about, it has been just warm enough by the end of SOME days , to soften up around 2pm but no where near warm enough to be consistently good....i've skied 9 days in march this year....6 have sucked, 1 was ok and 2 were very good but even the very good ones were not full days......i am well versed and aware of how spring skiing works and what goes into the nuances of softening snow....my postion is it has been way too cold for too long throughout the day with a combo of too much cloud cover and very cold temps at night and high winds during the day to result in this " spring skiing " bonanza that some seem to speak of....i've had epic spring skiing years...i know what they are and this isn't one of them, i can tell you that.... but again, that's just my opinion....last week at loon, it was stunning how rock hard the hill was....couldn't even begin to ski any decent bump lines....i've had very few true " corn" days.....and the fact that loon is about 1000 feet lower in elevation than most hill, like K, certainly leads me to believe that it has been even worse else where....

Sounds to me like you chose poorly. Here's from the 7th onwards as best I can reconstruct it:

Saturday March 7th was spring conditions. My first parking lot BBQ of the month.
Sunday March 8th was spring conditions. Things like Vertigo were soft bumps.
Monday March 9th. 4" of wet snow.
Wednesday March 11th. I went out late. High winds from the south. Things that were unskied had a little wet glaze over spring conditions.
Thursday March 12th and Friday March 13th were firm groomers.
Saturday March 14th softened nicely in the afternoon. South Ridge, Bear, Vagabond, and Highline were all good.
Sunday March 15th. I know I was on South Ridge at 3:30 and the top piece of Escapade was soft getting there from the K1. I don't have a record of the rest of the day.
Here's an example a non-rock hard surface on Pipe Dream on Monday March 16th. No bumps to speak of so you would have hated it.
http://www.vimeo.com/3706359
Tuesday March 17th. Showed up at 11:00 and skied spring conditions until last chair. Bear early. Snowdon natural snow trails late. Left the parking lot at 5:30. It was Saint Patricks Day and a big party.
Wednesday March 18th. Sunny first thing in the morning with spring conditions. I switched to helmet & goggles at 10:00. It started sprinkling at 12:30 and I quit then.
Thursday March 19th. 4" of wet snow at the top. I skied Outer Limits in spring conditions in the afternoon.
Friday March 20 was rock hard. I skipped it.
Saturday March 21 didn't soften until around 12:30. Breakaway and Jug/Jug Handle were really good. Vagabond and Northstar softened in the afternoon.
Sunday March 22 saw 5" of fresh snow by noon. I was skiing the easy trees all afternoon.
Monday March 23 was firm. I skipped it.
Tuesday March 24th, Outer Limits was very soft and I skied that for a couple of hours
Wednesday March 25th, Breakaway, Outer Limits, Old Needles Eye, Thimble, Dream Maker headwall were all very soft.
Thursday March 26th, Outer Limits was a little bit stiff but edgable at 11:30 but softened later.
Friday March 27th, it was cloudy in the morning. Ovation in the afternoon was so soft it skied like an intermediate trail.
Saturday March 28th, the whole mountain was soft
The weather sucked yesterday and today so I didn't ski.

 

[skimore]

sub par for March only

11/18

11/27

11/29

12/07

12/13

12/20

12/22

01/03

01/09

01/10

01/18

01/24

01/31

02/01

02/14

02/19-23 five powder days in a row

 

[joegm]

[
Sounds to me like you chose poorly. Here's from the 7th onwards as best I can reconstruct it:

Tuesday March 24th, Outer Limits was very soft and I skied that for a couple of hours
Wednesday March 25th, Breakaway, Outer Limits, Old Needles Eye, Thimble, Dream Maker headwall were all very soft.
Thursday March 26th, Outer Limits was a little bit stiff but edgable at 11:30 but softened later.

I didn't choose poorly... i choose when i didn't have to work... we all can't ski every single day at our leisure....simple math says if you can ski every single day , you are going to be able to pick and choose and boost your good day percentage...


your assessment of the 24 25 26 is why i put little credence in reports from people who i do know for sure are reliable... i was at loon on the 24 and 25... loon is 1000 feet lower than K is....loon was rock hard , all day long until at best 3 pm...ungroomed was basically unskiable....how does this jive with what you say about a hill that is 1000 feet higher...i suppose it is possible... it just doesn't make sense to me

 

[Tony Crocker]

Thanks to Geoff for the detail. I'll knock this last weekend down to C and leave the others at B.

http://vermthist.htm score is currently 36. Last 9 years season average is 38, which would be 2 more C weekends. That's about where I would expect it to end up.

I think Loon's exposure is mainly north, so it could easily be hard when a lot of K's east facing is soft in March. Normally north is good for snow preservation, but in Loon's climate with mostly manmade, little natural and lots of rain that sounds like a recipe for hardpack/frozen granular.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

sub par for March only

Hard to believe that one of the EC powder kings is based out of my hometown.

 

[sszycher]

I have to agree w/Geoff, for the most part. Despite a bizzare lack of storms during March, I think you'd have to rate this season as being better than average - perhaps significantly so - on the whole. Maybe not as good as last year, but still above average.

As for March, the skiing has held up surprisingly well, at least in VT, despite the lack of fresh snow. There really have been some beautiful "spring skiing" days out there, even on the weekends. It's a darn good thing the snowpack was well-established by late Feb, as w/o that snowpack, a lot of places would have been in serious trouble by St Paddy's Day.

Trust me, Joegm, I feel your pain when it comes to having limited flexibility when it comes to days off. In this economy, I have been very reluctant to schedule any days off on short notice, so I just take the attitude that the days off I have are the days off I have; if I get lucky, great, but Lady Luck is a fickle mistress. :stir:

 

[Geoff]

I think Loon's exposure is mainly north, so it could easily be hard when a lot of K's east facing is soft in March. Normally north is good for snow preservation, but in Loon's climate with mostly manmade, little natural and lots of rain that sounds like a recipe for hardpack/frozen granular.

Exactly. The advantage of Killington is that it has a lot of east-facing terrain that softens in March. I spent most of the month on the same dozen trails. If the F'ing A-hole new owners blew snow on Fiddle, it would be even better since that was always the first thing to soften.

Left unsaid is that getting back from South Ridge and Bear was usually an adventure skiing machine groomed golf balls over grey sheet ice on Superstar.

 

[Geoff]

...and add March 31st to the really good days in March list. :mrgreen:

 

[J.Spin]

The number of eastern TR's on FTO has declined this year. Jspin's are very detailed, but his emphasis on lightly traveled side and backcountry may reflect surface conditions not representative of the range of typical ski trails, even in Northern Vermont.

I’ve felt that trip reports have been sparse at First Tracks for a while, with the bulk of material in these forums coming from just a few regular posters. With Rivercoil and Powderfreak losing a level of interest here, that has dropped further. I’d say even SkiVT-L seems to have fewer trip reports than it used to. There appears to be the same level of activity there, but not necessarily a lot of trip reports. Powderfreak even brought that topic up in a post at SkiVT-L. I get the impression that the grand era of online ski trip reports has passed to some degree. The novelty of posting pictures and video (and even text) on the web isn’t really there anymore, so there may be less incentive for some folks to put in much effort to make reports. What I think has taken the biggest hit is the everyday reports of typical outings; perhaps people don’t feel there’s much interest in reading about everyday skiing when there are all kinds of trip reports from exotic locales available. I got this impression in a huge way at Telemarktips.com, which used to be a huge forum five to ten years ago. Since I, along with E and Ty, spend a lot of time on Telemark skis now, I thought I might post some reports there, but it doesn’t even seem like there’s a forum for everyday reports, or if there is it’s very hard to find. Unless you’re making some first descent in Alaska or the Himalaya, I’m not sure that the Telemarktips group is interested. On the other hand, TGR and AlpineZone seem to be quite active with vast numbers of participants, so this year I’ve posted some of my reports to AlpineZone to hopefully get the conditions information out to more individuals.

With regard to AlpineZone, it’s interesting that you bring up the areas covered in my reports because that issue came up there. I sent in a report from Bolton, and another poster commented that I should clarify it a bit because I was off in the sidecountry skiing somewhat decent snow in the early morning while the trails were apparently pretty crappy after a bit of traffic. At a place like SkiVT-L that sort of report is par for the course, but I realize now that it’s not necessarily the norm at AlpineZone. The typical ski season for the locals around here may not be what other skiers are going to experience, hence the dichotomy in some opinions about the quality of the season. While it’s clear that some people feel that the skiing has been above average in the region, in a recent thread on SkiVT-L it was obvious that in some respects (areas of local backcountry, Adirondack Slides, etc.) it was sub par. I’d continue to say it was about average in my experience, even though March has seen only a few powder days and knocked it down a notch in that regard. Folks will always have to know that my reports generally focus on the snow that I’m skiing, which certainly reveals the potential of what’s out there, but it’s not necessarily going to be what someone who arrives in the afternoon, rides the main lifts, and points their skis straight down the hill is going to experience.

-J

 

[Marc_C]

Personally I don't mind if my edge digs a bit into hard pack, but to some locals out west if they even hear an edge they cry bloody murder.

What's an "edge"?

 

[flyover]

What's an "edge"?

You forgot the: :-"

Or maybe the: :stir:

Edges, you know, those things along the sides of the bottoms of your skis that you absolutely, positively, must have to ski almost all of Mineral Basin just about anytime it has been more than a few hours since the last snowfall and it is colder than freezing. :wink: