Sutton - the untold story .... untold no more

Wow! I didn't think my little dream would get you going like this! I'm glad to see you so interested in that topic. <BR> <BR>Some of you seemed uncertain concerning some topics, so I'll do my best to inform you to the best of my knowledge. <BR> <BR>* Concerning Mont Écho, the closest village was Knowlton - so it was competing with Glen in the same market. It once had the longest chairlift in Canada, but it wasn't all vertical: from what I recall from my hicking over there last year, the whole mountain is made of 4 or 5 giant steps with pretty long flats in between. The area closed just a bit before snowmaking started being implemented extensively - so I don't think it was the lack of it that caused its downfall. It is now the property of a fishing & hunting club, who still uses the base lodge. <BR>The original logo of the ski area can be seen on the exterior wall of the Knowlton Pub, in Knowlton. <BR> <BR>* About the road to Sutton... well let's just say that Quebec's former transport minister skis at Sutton, and that fixing route 139 was one of his first move. Hum-hum. (I won't complain though) <BR> <BR>* Concerning the development period in the mid eightees, well there was not much development done -beside the building of sector #7. All significant trails & glades were already in place since the late sixties, but the map was redrawn around 1985, and the number of named trail went up 50% without a single tree being cut. The lift moves were mostly simple re-placement: <BR>1985: #2(double), replaced by a new HSQ <BR>1985: former #2 double is installed to become #1West (the trails in that sector already existed) <BR>1986: Parts of former #2 and of a former Echo lift are used to build the #4West and the #2West. The #2West replaces a T-Bar and 4West replaces a poma (that went up Kangourou!!!) <BR>1987: #7 is added <BR>1988: #4 (a double) is replaced by a quad <BR> <BR>* On how to replace chairs #5 and #4, when I talked of having a HS6, I thought of it as being in the Dynamique <BR> <BR>* Chair #0 still not needed for condos. The ones being built right now are beside Coucou (#IWest) and Saint-Bernard (#1) <BR> <BR>* Concerning the general -theoritical - feasability of a link from Sutton to Jay, it wouldn't be too long: <BR>Let's assume a skier is at the bottom of chair #2 and wants to go to the bottom of the Tram @ Jay. His path would be the following : he would have to take the gondola (the one projected by the French), ski down to the Missisquoi river, take a lift from the river to top of the hill that sits across the border, wait 10 minutes at the US customs (sorry - just personal experience here), then ski down. He would then take a lift up to the top of North Jay Peak (a mountain that would be superb to develop BTW), and he could ski to the tram from there! Total: just 3 lift rides. <BR> <BR>*For the Topo maps on the US side: http://www.topozone.com - type Jay Peak VT, and you can see all the terrain. <BR> <BR>* A tidbit I forgot in writting the original message: When Owl's Head and Orford were purchased by Intermont 2 years ago, an offer was made to put the Boulanger in or to buy Sutton altogether. The offer was refused, but Intermont and Sutton still collaborate with the interchangable multi-day package. <BR> <BR>* It's often windy on Round Top. I don't think a chair could be placed on the top itseld - maybe a bit shy of it. <BR> <BR>*The development of the backside does not make me really enthusiastic. I once tried to pick a line from the top of #5. I ended up skiing only 300-500 feet, before I had to take a catwalk (snowshoe trail) that was longer than the Fantaisie-IWest catwalk, only to get back to the bottom of Fantaisie. I expect it should be worst if starting from top of #7. What's worth skiing on the backside is Fantaisie and lines parallel to it. I imagine a few trails could be put behind chairs #1 and #1West, but anything from #7, 5 or 4 would hit valley floor to fast to justify a lift. <BR> <BR>- Coming in from another thread, the part of Youppe-Youppe that's semi-flat and below a huge cliff doesn't hold snow well, as it's pretty exposed to winds. When I went skiing on May 11, snow started at the beginning of the steep part (where we arrive when coming from the top of #2). <BR> <BR>* About late season skiing at Sutton. I think the Dynamique holds snow better than any other trail (beside the Round Top itself). The small hill East of #7 is pretty good also, as I hiked in 12inches of snow when #7 was bare in May 2002. Stade de Slalom is the ultimate sping skiing trail though, when it's all bumps. <BR> <BR>And on a final note, I'd like to hear your opinion concerning Sutton's trail closing policies and announcement practices. Every early and late parts of the season, they systematically understate the number of trails opened in their reports - in fact, when they put a sign on top of a trail saying it might lack a bit of cover, they consider it closed for reporting purposes. Or sometimes they even close it though it's still skiable. As an exemple, this year the upper Bou-Bou closed on March 16, but we have been able to ski it until the day before season ending (April 21). Or on the first weekend in November, I skied 37 trails out of 53, though only 4 were opened. <BR> <BR>The same goes with snow reports: Sutton always takes the lower boundary of the range of snow fallen at the lowest elevation of the mountain. (Jay, for comparison, takes the upper boundary of the highest range they can find on the mountain) <BR> <BR>Is that bad good or bad marketing?
 
I rarely skied Tremblant when I was in University (85-92). Do you remember when they redirected the bottom of the trail to reach the quad (old quad). <BR> <BR>The 70s Grand-Prix was narrower, but also didn't follow the same path as today. The trail turned a sharp right near the bottom of the pitch and follow the old black double chair liftline - then you had a choice of staying in liftline all the way to the base of the chair or turn left at the bump as join the Beauvallon crossover across the lower upper part of the mountain. <BR> <BR>You can still ski the old path even if it is fence or rope off. Didn't do it this year, I only skied Tremblant in April. Great place after a storm - not steep, but quiet.
 
Patrick - just a clarification here: <BR> <BR>When I say the word development, I mean it in the way it should be: something that is added to improve on something, or to make it enjoyable to more people. <BR> <BR>If by development you understand wiping out what made the original version great to please the masses, well I think that it is destruction, and it should be called by its name. <BR> <BR>I'd be against any additions of lift capacity on the main side (a HS6 replacing a quad and a double is equivalent). I'd also be against any destruction of environment, but knowing that biodiversity is mostly found in lower sides of the mountain and in wetlands, I do think it would be possible to develop Sutton further without affecting the main habitats. Maybe protecting the forests being harvested behind Mt Echo, in Bolton, would be more worthwhile. <BR> <BR>I'm drifting away from the subject here, but why is it that all national parks and reserves be on mountains? A national park in a flat area is certainly less attractive for tourists, but definetly more worthwhile in preserving the environment where biodiversity is located and endangered.
 
My God, thanx a "huge super big extra" lot, Max for this history + full observations. Going to answer it as soon as I can (and I hope you'll be on the chat tomorrow night). <BR> <BR>Thanx for the description of Mt Echo. On my 70s guide, I was wondering if there was mistakes or if the trails were really as long as that ! The shortest T2B run (I imagine under chairlift) had just 1,36 miles long (2,1km). The gondola of Tremblant is just 2,5km, so that's really long for a 1500' high ski area ! I really should go see this ski area. <BR> <BR>Fastly for snow reports. I don't think it's a good idea to always show worst, cause all the other ski areas do the opposite, so it can disadvantage them. For the number of trails, I'm the kind of skier who won't go to the resort if the Boubou is closed, so if they show it closed on the reports, they just lost 1 skier for the day (and I'm not the only one to look at that) <BR> <BR>And finally, about Tremblant's GP, yes, of course, I've seen it in its old pattern. I skied it for the first time in 1991-92, the last year of the original version. In 1992-93, they enlarged the summit pass to reach it (I have a nice photo of the tiny pass in a magazine, I could post it). They enlarged the whole middle trail and they did changed the lower part all in the same summer. I remember to have hike down it that summer. (1992). It was the first year of Intrawest on the mountain and just the next year, they opened Vertige + ZigZag in the zone. They were cool in the first years, these 2 ones ! In 1992-93, the double and the old quad (now on Edge) were still running, but in 1993-94, the TGV replaced them, what reduced by 33% the uphill capacity (they really should have kept the old double !!!!!)
 
I remember the Old GP at Tremblant too. I miss the trails that they widened when Intrawest started to "improve" (what a joke) the mountain. <BR> <BR>I haven't been back since the early 90's, do they still have Ryan running from top to bottom? It looks from the trail map that they closed the bottom part in order to allow for... well something.
 
Short answer Jonny, Ryan is still T2B, but with (occasionnal) snowmaking on the first part down to Charron. (I wonder if they've really made some snow since the system is there). Middle is as in the old time, except that they reopened the middle way which is a funny rocky narrow steepy part. The middle is like in the old time and the lower is sometimes open I think. I took it closed this winter. The last pitch was ugly, but I passed by the woods for this part. The very last pitch is just beside the jump site. I don't think it's still possible to pass there unless a huge ton of snow, cause they put big rocks in that...
 
FYI, on the web site Frank just mentioned in the Torngat thread, the photo from Sutton's summit (Round Top) located <A HREF="http://communities.msn.fr/Lameutedesrandonneurs/cantonsdelest.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=622" TARGET="_blank">here</A> is looking south. That's the Mississquoi Valley in the middle ground, the border is slightly beyond, and the highest mountain in the background (to the left of directly above the sign) is Jay Peak. If you look closely, trails are barely visible.
 
Yep Marc, I've seen the pic, but I don't really like to post some pics with other persons on them ;) (a link is a great idea) <BR> <BR>Thank you to confirm me it's effectively the south side, I wasn't totally sure and thanks a lot too for the trails, I didn't spot them on the first time !
 
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