The future of glade skiing in NYS
- Thread starter Sharon
- Start date
EMSC
Well-known member
I hate to rain on the parade. But the GM's favorite activity is using a bulldozer to flatten any and every trail or possible trail in sight. In my view, the minimal on map glade areas prove the 'rule' (vs the extensive and growing list of trails/areas he has bulldozed). Past behavior IS a likely indicator of future behavior - which is not good in this case.
I think you'd be better off summer clearing downed logs, stray branches for: the Olyp glade, the old Electra and skiers left of Alsop's down to the road by yourself (obvioisly no power tools), etc... Some nice opportunities, but then the most recent bulldozed trail, Hercules, runs right down a NW facing (aka heavily windblown) section that used to be a prime locals glade. Now an icy patch of manmade junk that sucks for the majority of the season as I understand it.
I think you'd be better off summer clearing downed logs, stray branches for: the Olyp glade, the old Electra and skiers left of Alsop's down to the road by yourself (obvioisly no power tools), etc... Some nice opportunities, but then the most recent bulldozed trail, Hercules, runs right down a NW facing (aka heavily windblown) section that used to be a prime locals glade. Now an icy patch of manmade junk that sucks for the majority of the season as I understand it.
I've heard nothing of glade skiing becoming illegal, but with concerns over Bicknell's Thrush habitat, the cutting of new glades may have to pass more and more regulatory hurdles in the future.
http://www.whiteface.com/newsite/bicknell.php
http://www.wcs.org/international/northa ... alresearch
http://www.wcs.org/media/file/WCS-ACCP_ ... t_2004.pdf
Fact: Bicknell's Thrush concerns go hand in hand with eastern glade skiing because in order to maintain a glade, one must clear out the young trees. This creates an even-aged stand rather than a natural uneven-aged stand, and prevents forest regeneration. Bicknell's Thrush prefers regenerating areas.
By the way, in the east I wouldn't say that tree wells are purely a function of tree structure and snowpack. It probably has something to do with skier traffic; I've never seen a tree-well in the perpetually tracked out designated glades at KMart, for instance, even when there's the occasional spruce present, or even in most of the non-designated woods shots between trails, but I've seen a few small wells deeper in the backcountry. I think our spruces have lower branches than the conifers out west, though, and that tends to prevent people from skiing into the well.
http://www.whiteface.com/newsite/bicknell.php
http://www.wcs.org/international/northa ... alresearch
http://www.wcs.org/media/file/WCS-ACCP_ ... t_2004.pdf
Fact: Bicknell's Thrush concerns go hand in hand with eastern glade skiing because in order to maintain a glade, one must clear out the young trees. This creates an even-aged stand rather than a natural uneven-aged stand, and prevents forest regeneration. Bicknell's Thrush prefers regenerating areas.
By the way, in the east I wouldn't say that tree wells are purely a function of tree structure and snowpack. It probably has something to do with skier traffic; I've never seen a tree-well in the perpetually tracked out designated glades at KMart, for instance, even when there's the occasional spruce present, or even in most of the non-designated woods shots between trails, but I've seen a few small wells deeper in the backcountry. I think our spruces have lower branches than the conifers out west, though, and that tends to prevent people from skiing into the well.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Re: Glade skiing in the East.
Have any of you looked at Mad River Glen and ever thought how un-natural it is?
There is not a single section off the Single Chair that is not hollowed out. It's weird. Disney-esque. Every tree has been sculpted. It's obvious to anyone. (Oh, but it was done by tele-skiers and MRG shareholders - so it's OK and cool and environmentally correct.) Gimme a break.
What is worse? snowmaking and a healthy forest betwee runs OR some glades that have chopped into a de-branched/hacked/dead yound wood/one age forest?
Glading is not the big secret people pretend it to be. It is really apparent.
Have any of you looked at Mad River Glen and ever thought how un-natural it is?
There is not a single section off the Single Chair that is not hollowed out. It's weird. Disney-esque. Every tree has been sculpted. It's obvious to anyone. (Oh, but it was done by tele-skiers and MRG shareholders - so it's OK and cool and environmentally correct.) Gimme a break.
What is worse? snowmaking and a healthy forest betwee runs OR some glades that have chopped into a de-branched/hacked/dead yound wood/one age forest?
Glading is not the big secret people pretend it to be. It is really apparent.
On the other hand glade skiing is still concentrating skiers in one area. It expands the size/capacity of a ski area without expanding the footprint by too much. The trees at a resort are really masking what is a pseudo industrial zone... plumbing for snowmaking, pump houses, groomers, snowmobiles, cafeterias, condos. Nature is somewhat of an illusion at a ski resort.
Caveat: This from someone is definitely not a environmental or habitat expert. Do tree skiers create more impact at a resort or in the backcountry? Anybody know?
Caveat: This from someone is definitely not a environmental or habitat expert. Do tree skiers create more impact at a resort or in the backcountry? Anybody know?
riverc0il
New member
I think you are the one that should give us a break. Disney-esque? Tree skiing in the east is almost by its very definition un-natural. There are very few areas in the Northeast that have naturally spaced trees that allow for natural skiing turns and what I would consider really good skiing. Even lines that are considered "natural glades" often have some handi-work contributing to the "naturalness" of the glade. There are a few choice locations that truly are natural but they are rare and the exception. For crying out loud, Mad River Glen makes no secret that its tree regrowth is so vicious that it needs skier supported work parties organized through the coop via volunteers to trim back the regrowth. Tree skiing is certainly closer to natural than trail skiing ever could be, that much is for sure. If I want natural skiing, I head for Mount Washington... but even then, the bowls and gullies are only accessible via human cut and maintained trails, used to be quite the bush whack and that ain't the type of natural skiing I enjoy.ChrisC":y33ylmb8 said:
Tree skiing: One of the big advantages western skiing has over the East. And a key to making powder days go farther. So I don't begrudge the easterners one bit for trying to improve their product.
Tony Crocker":3t4m2byo said:
That's ^^ what he means.
Nothing whatsoever to do with numbers. As Chris described the natural condition of eastern forests has inadequate spacing and/or lots of underbrush. Plus the matter of a required 40 inch natural snow base (Riverc0il's criterion), which is achieved only erratically outside the Northern Vermont snowbelt.
admin has commented before that Vermont forests have a "brush line" at about 2,500 feet that results in improved spacing. Thus only the best of eastern mountains have adequate natural spacing, and even there it's not consistent. So it's not a surprise that eastern powderhounds try to maintain and improve that spacing.
Go visit Red/Fernie/Whitefish/Schweitzer if you want to see what good natural spacing looks like. I've also provided a few pictures from Baldy over the years, most recently here: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=6301.
The claustrophobic spacing does sharpen one's ski skills. I did not dispute Riverc0il's conjecture of my possible fate at Cannon had I been there last Saturday. I've observed admin's "rabbit warren" skiing in person.
admin has commented before that Vermont forests have a "brush line" at about 2,500 feet that results in improved spacing. Thus only the best of eastern mountains have adequate natural spacing, and even there it's not consistent. So it's not a surprise that eastern powderhounds try to maintain and improve that spacing.
Go visit Red/Fernie/Whitefish/Schweitzer if you want to see what good natural spacing looks like. I've also provided a few pictures from Baldy over the years, most recently here: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=6301.
The claustrophobic spacing does sharpen one's ski skills. I did not dispute Riverc0il's conjecture of my possible fate at Cannon had I been there last Saturday. I've observed admin's "rabbit warren" skiing in person.
I'd be curious to know at what spacing does tree skiing cease to be tree skiing? (Opinions anyone?) I think most would agree that it's not the farther apart the better. Certain the more spacing, the easier it is, at a given pitch and surface condition. But if it was all about "ease" then blue trails should be preferred over black.
One thing that keeps tree skiing "fresh" longer is the difficulty. Tight trees eliminate a lot of traffic. (And they are a RUSH too!)
One thing that keeps tree skiing "fresh" longer is the difficulty. Tight trees eliminate a lot of traffic. (And they are a RUSH too!)
riverc0il
New member
On the flip side, tight tree skiing lines are toast after one group goes through and the fourth person of that group probably isn't the happiest about the line, that is for sure. I actually enjoy open spaces over tight lines. I don't find that the spacing of the line is indicative of amount of traffic and powder availability. There is an inverse relationship between the amount of brush sticking through the snow and cross blocking required to safely navigate a line versus the amount of tracks leading down said tree line. I can't tell you how many times I come home to a "what's that on your cheek?" question.Harvey44":1fcu5nh7 said:
Tree skiing becomes a thwack if you can't get more than two or three turns before needing to stop and traverse or re-assess lines. That is when the powder probably just isn't worth the effort, at least for my tastes.
SoCal/Baldy spacing is very wide even by western standards. The virtue of the wider spacing is that you have boundary-to-boundary skiing, thus more acreage/more skiable lines on powder days. As Riverc0il alluded by the comments about "the fourth person of that group."
At some point is it so inviting that it gets tracked as fast as an alpine bowl? Probably, but many of Baldy's glades require a few minutes traverse/step-ups to reach or get back to a lift, sort of like a typical admin run at Alta. That seems to be enough to cut down traffic, particularly from snowboarders.
The Kootenay region trees are interesting/challenging even to the easterners. Ask Sharon about Red Mt.
At some point is it so inviting that it gets tracked as fast as an alpine bowl? Probably, but many of Baldy's glades require a few minutes traverse/step-ups to reach or get back to a lift, sort of like a typical admin run at Alta. That seems to be enough to cut down traffic, particularly from snowboarders.
The Kootenay region trees are interesting/challenging even to the easterners. Ask Sharon about Red Mt.