Vermont Snow Updates 2009-10

snowgun":aj1kfufj said:
this thread is the biggest f'in waste of time and disk space on the whole internet


actually, the biggest waste of time and space is your post in regards to the thread....have you actually looked at some of the photos and details of what this guy is taking the time to put up?.....have you seen what he has done with his kids and what he has them skiing ?.....i don't even know why i am responding to you ....you are obviously a major league idiot gaper ...fool .... =;.. go crawl back into your hole and play video games... admin...execute this guy...NOW !!!
 
Bolton Valley, VT 20DEC2009

E and I headed up to Bolton with the boys for a late morning session yesterday, and we did some laps off Wilderness. Our routes were Lower Crossover/Work Road/Lower Turnpike for runs from the mid station, and Peggy Dow’s/Turnpike from the top. The groomed conditions were the same excellent packed powder that I’d found on Saturday afternoon, except that the grooming was fresh. Some strips of the trail along the edges were left without grooming as usual, leaving chowder around, and then there was still untracked snow along the edges to mix it up. Ty wanted to Telemark, so we generally stuck to the trail and worked on some drills with him, and did the same with Dylan on his alpines. We took occasional forays into the powder along the edges of the trails to test out the untracked snow, be we didn’t engage in any big explorations. The various woods shots throughout the area looked well covered and lightly used though. The temperature was around 10 F at the base area (2,100’), and I suspect a bit colder up at the Wilderness summit (~3,050’) but there was little if any wind, so it was comfortable as long as you stayed active. The temperature might have been a drag if one wanted to focus on high-speed cruising however.

J.Spin
 
snowgun":2h3j9ml9 said:
this thread is the biggest f'in waste of time and disk space on the whole internet
So what. Don't read it if you're not interested. Did someone appoint you the internet resource cop?
 
I have a question that I'm sure was addressed when this thread was started last season... apparently, I missed it. Why the incredibly detailed analysis about the snow that falls in Waterbury, when, I assume (incorrectly, I guess) the goal is to document the conditions where people want to ski?
 
JSpin's attention to detail and documentation appears to be well beyond mine. He probably maintains information at his home equivalent to that of a NWS station. JSpin usually attaches summary info from the ski areas nearby, which is what I read if I'm pressed for time. Also ski areas in general like to measure at high elevation within their boundaries, so perhaps the Waterbury info might have some relevance to base area conditions. It's also likely that the Waterbury info is tightly correlated to Bolton, and over the long run I suspect one could use Bolton = X% of JSpin's home data as an estimate.
 
jamesdeluxe":82wnyzw8 said:
I have a question that I'm sure was addressed when this thread was started last season... apparently, I missed it. Why the incredibly detailed analysis about the snow that falls in Waterbury, when, I assume (incorrectly, I guess) the goal is to document the conditions where people want to ski?
I don’t think it’s ever been addressed, but the Waterbury observations provide a snowfall-related weather log/data archive for this part of ski country that people can use for whatever they want. For some people the data may be useless, as demonstrated by the kid that somehow needed to lash out after discovering that fact. Others may find the data more useful, possibly in ways I don’t even know about, but I can think of at least a few:

1) People actually do ski right out the valleys here, even the lower-elevation ones, so in that regard the Waterbury data provide a direct measure of the snowfall trends and snowpack for those recreation areas.

2) Unlike some areas of the country (such as Montana’s Bitterroot for example), there is a fairly strong correlation between the snowfall in the mountains and mountain valleys around here. Aside from the elevation-dependent storms that are more common in early and late season, the snow that falls at our location is generally just a tempered version of what falls at the resorts in the northern half of Vermont. And, due to our location right along the Green Mountain Spine, even the more mountain-localized upslope events are mirrored fairly well. The closer one gets to Waterbury in terms of the ski resorts or backcountry, the better the correlation is going to be. The Timberline area of Bolton Valley is just a few miles and 1,000’ up from our house, Bolton’s main base is just beyond that, and then Mt. Mansfield/Stowe are a few miles more. For the data I collect, I’m sure the best correlation is with Bolton Valley’s snowfall, and I’d say our annual valley snowfall runs about 50-65% of theirs, depending on how many elevation-dependent events take place. For a typical storm during ski season, one can roughly double what we receive in the Winooski Valley, and have a sense of what the local mountains received. Of course, the resorts provide snowfall numbers as well, but they don’t yet provide much in the way of…

3) Water content – for whatever reason (possibly because the water supply is not a concern around here), none of the local resorts report water content with their snowfall. This information can actually be very useful for skiers. For some skiers, this can be very helpful in thinking about which pairs of skis to bring for the day, or whether or not to even ski at all. If three inches of Champlain Powder™ falls on an icy base, it may not even be worth skiing, but if three inches of cement falls, that’s an entirely different ski surface.

I’m sure there are other ways to use the information, but that’s what’s great about data, people can do whatever they want to with it… or not. I’m generally collecting it anyway to send to Easternuswx.com, and now CoCoRaHS since I’ve been asked to contribute there, so it’s really just a few extra moments to put out another post and create an archive.

-J
 
that’s what’s great about data, people can do whatever they want to with it… or not.
Very true. Sometimes you don't know at the time but eventually you'll find the historical record useful. Once JSpin has been there a few years his monthly totals can be compared to the nearby ski areas and we'll know how useful it may be as a surrogate for Bolton..

Water content...
I get asked detail questions about this from time to time. In western ski areas it's usually pretty simple. Water content of both Mammoth and Alta storms look like normal distributions around their long term averages (12.9% and 8.6% respectively). But I'm persuaded that Vermont is different. I suspect there are 2 peaks in the distibution, one similar to Alta's and the other extremely wet with a lot of rain mixed in. This is an area where JSpin's data could shed some light once there is enough of it. The Mansfield Stake daily data also includes both snow and water content. I have not tried to do anything detailed with that, as most of the earlier years are in hardcopy.
 
Summary: 2.0” snow total in Waterbury (495’) as of 7:00 A.M. EST

Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009: 7:00 A.M. update from Waterbury, VT

New Snow: 1.5 inches
Liquid Equivalent: 0.10 inches
Snow/Water Ratio: 15.0
Snow Density: 6.7%
Temperature: 11.8 F
Humidity: 56%
Dew Point: -4.0 F
Barometer: 1021 mb
Wind: Calm
Sky: Light Snow (1-2 mm flakes)
Storm snow total: 2.0 inches
Storm liquid equivalent total: 0.11 inches
Current snow at the stake: 9 inches
Season snowfall total: 24.4 inches

It continued to snow lightly overnight, and our location picked up an additional 1.5 inches of snow since I last cleared the snowboard at 11:30 P.M. While it seemed like Burlington had picked up more snow than our location as of yesterday evening, I’d say there’s more new snow in the Waterbury area now. It’s continued to snow here in Burlington this morning though, and while it’s generally been light, the flakes are pretty large (~5 mm) so there could be some additional fluffy accumulation. In terms of the mountains, below is what the Vermont ski areas have reported for accumulations with this event so far:

Jay Peak: 4”
Burke: 3”
Smuggler’s Notch: 4”
Stowe: 3”
Bolton Valley: 2”
Sugarbush: 1”
Killington: 2”
Stratton: 1”

J.Spin
 
Summary: 3.8” snow total in Waterbury (495’) as of 8:00 P.M. EST

Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009: 6:00 P.M. update from Waterbury, VT

New Snow: 1.4 inches
Liquid Equivalent: 0.06 inches
Snow/Water Ratio: 23.3
Snow Density: 4.3%
Temperature: 16.2 F
Humidity: 75%
Dew Point: 7.2 F
Barometer: 1024 mb
Wind: ~5 MPH
Sky: Light Snow (2-6 mm flakes)
Storm snow total: 3.4 inches
Storm liquid equivalent total: 0.17 inches
Current snow at the stake: 10 inches
Season snowfall total: 25.8 inches

We’ve been out and about in the Burlington-Waterbury area today and it’s been snowing everywhere we’ve visited. The snow hasn’t been accumulating at a rapid pace, as it’s been fairly light in intensity, but the flakes have often been large and it’s certainly given the area a holiday feel. The roads are generally coated and visibility has been reduced at times. It’s still snowing here in Waterbury, and seems to be slowing down a bit, but we had another 0.4 inches between the snowboard clearing at 6:00 P.M. and my next check at 8:00 P.M. The mountains don’t seem to be accumulating the snow much faster than the valleys with this event; the latest totals I’ve seen for some Vermont resorts are shown below:

Jay Peak: 4”
Burke: 3”
Smuggler’s Notch: 6”
Stowe: 3”
Bolton Valley: 3”
Mad River Glen: 2”
Sugarbush: 2”
Killington: 2”
Stratton: 1”

J.Spin
 
Jay Peak: 4”
Burke: 3”
Smuggler’s Notch: 6”
Stowe: 3”

Bolton Valley: 3”
Mad River Glen: 2”
Sugarbush: 2”
Killington: 2”
Stratton: 1”
J.Spin

can this be right..they are on top of each other
 
jasoncapecod":2z9k4xvh said:
Smuggler’s Notch: 6”
Stowe: 3”
J.Spin

can this be right..they are on top of each other

Sure can. Anything arriving on a northwesterly flow places Smuggs on the windward side and Stowe on the leeward side.
 
jasoncapecod":14758slv said:
Smuggler’s Notch: 6”
Stowe: 3”
can this be right..they are on top of each other
It's not all that surprising, since there are still a few miles of distance between them (~3.5 miles as the crow flies from the top of the Stowe quad to the top of Madonna, where the summit accumulations measurements might be taken), and the reverse (Stowe receiving more than Smuggler's) happens frequently. Also, even though the distance isn't huge, there's a lot of dynamic orographics packed into that area (The Notch, as well as moving from the very western slopes of the spine at the top of Stowe to a more east side location at Smuggler's) that can affect snowfall. Add to that the fact that this snowfall event has been an interesting one, with as much or more snow in many of the valleys relative to the mountains, and it's certainly possible. Even more interesting is that Smugg's is now up to 9 inches of accumulation from this event according to SkiVermont.com (image below), and coincident with that they are the only one reporting powder as their primary surface. It's possible that an error occurred in the snow reporting, but I don't have any reason to doubt it unless I hear otherwise. If I was just going a la carte for skiing around here today, I would probably head to Smugg's and check it out. I’d already heard some good things about the snow there even prior to this event.

24DEC09A.jpg


J.Spin
 
Waterbury storm totals: 3.8” snow/0.18” liquid equivalent

Thursday, December 24th, 2009: 8:00 A.M. update from Waterbury, VT

New Snow: 0.4 inches
Liquid Equivalent: 0.01 inches
Snow/Water Ratio: 40.0
Snow Density: 2.5%
Temperature: 24.3 F
Humidity: 87%
Dew Point: 19.6 F
Barometer: 1033 mb
Wind: Calm
Sky: Cloudy
Storm snow total: 3.8 inches
Storm liquid equivalent total: 0.18 inches
Current snow at the stake: 10 inches
Season snowfall total: 26.2 inches

This event appears to be complete. It wasn’t a huge event, but it did leave our yard snowpack at its highest level of the season with regard to the daily check I do each A.M. The next storm in the queue appears to be starting Saturday for this area. It will be interesting to see how much, if any, snow comes out of the first part of that event, although the current BTV NWS forecast suggests that the mountains will be all snow beyond Sunday afternoon. Event totals for some of the Vermont areas are listed below. Unless there was a reporting error, it looks like Smuggler’s Notch was at the top of the accumulations stack with 9 inches.

Jay Peak: 7”
Burke: 4.5”
Smuggler’s Notch: 9”
Stowe: 4”
Bolton Valley: 4”
Mad River Glen: 2”
Sugarbush: 2”
Pico: 3”
Killington: 3”
Stratton: 1”

J.Spin
 
Because we were up at Bolton Valley yesterday, it wasn’t until later in the afternoon that I realized we were under such a substantial inversion. When we traveled up from the Winooski Valley (300-500’, T=28 F) mid morning, the sun was already breaking out up at the Bolton Valley Village (~2,100’, T=25 F), and before long the skies had totally cleared. I assumed that the same thing was going on everywhere. But later in the afternoon, some clouds seemed to move back into the lower part of Bolton Valley, and I began to notice that small snowflakes or ice crystals were accumulating on everything. At first I thought it might be some blow over from a few snow guns making snow in other parts of the resort, but it was everywhere. The way that the trees in the village were taking on a coating of white should have been a tip off to what was going on, but it wasn’t until I got home and saw Jim Clapp’s great picture from up on Mt. Mansfield (much like the one from j24vt in the NNE thread at Eastern) that I realized an inversion had set up.

J.Spin
 
I've left the images and text related to weather/snow conditions in this thread, but a full trip report is also available.

Bolton Valley, VT 24DEC2009

For the second year in a row, Christmas Eve delivered an outstanding day of skiing up at Bolton Valley. Stephen and I have been talking about last year’s outing for quite a while due to the great snow, comfortable temperatures, and lack of crowds. The first two factors are basically up to Mother Nature, but in terms of the number of skiers, we’ve always figured that people just have a lot of other things to be concerned with on Christmas Eve. Temperatures moderated yesterday, with a mid morning temperature of roughly 28 F in the Winooski Valley (elevations 300’-500’) dropping to 25 F once we reached the Bolton Valley Village (~2,100’). The sun was just starting to break through the clouds as we arrived, so that was an added bonus. Unfortunately, we didn’t get to meet up with Stephen and his kids, since they started early and had to leave early, but Ty, Dylan, and I still had a great time by ourselves.

From the get go I told the boys that since we’d stayed generally on trail on Sunday, we were going to bring our powder boards and make it a powder day. Yesterday’s ski options actually had an added twist – the Vista Quad was still down for maintenance, and the Wilderness Lift was doing the lion’s share of getting people up the mountain. Stephen said he saw the mechanics working on the lift in the morning, but apparently they didn’t finish because the lift wasn’t going to run. With the Vista Quad down, Snowflake not running, and the Timberline area not open yet, that meant the lift options were only the Wilderness and Mid Mountain lifts. It looked like this has been the lift setup for most of the week, so with the new snow from the previous few days, it meant that there was an even higher amount of untracked powder available for those that knew the mountain well and were willing to traverse for it. The Upper Crossover side of Wilderness was closed from the top however, so that limited the “easy” traverse options a bit more.

The boy’s were fortunately willing to do a bit of extra work to get in on more untracked snow, so we traversed for some visits out to New Sherman’s Pass and the associated glades and found good snow all around. It really wasn’t super bottomless powder everywhere, as there’s only been so much snow since those areas last saw regular traffic, but it was hard to complain. There were still a lot of areas that have seen little if any traffic, and even near the base area, I stuck my pole in the snow and found that the unconsolidated layer was 15 inches deep in undisturbed areas. Great turns were had on New Sherman’s itself, where there were several inches of medium weight powder over the groomed base. The boys seemed to really like that a lot, and I think it helped as they were both getting used to their longer skis. Overall, I’d say the glades and woods still need another foot or two to get into the zone where they are really prime; you can see that there is brush sticking out in places that eventually get covered, but the Mt. Mansfield stake is at 30 inches of depth, so the magic 40-inch mark is drawing closer. Woods skiing with a bit of extra caution and common sense is certainly open for business at the appropriate elevations.

On a final, weather-related note, the sky was clear much of the afternoon, but eventually some low clouds rolled into the bottom of the valley and small snowflakes/ice crystals began to fall on everything. It turns out that we were under a substantial inversion, and the valleys stayed cloudy all day. Yesterday, my dad was extremely surprised when I told him it was completely sunny for most of our time on the mountain, since in South Burlington he said that they’d been under clouds all day. I’ve seen a couple of nice shots from above the inversion, one from Jim Clapp on SkiVT-L, and one from j24vt in the Northern New England thread at EasternUSwx.com.

Some pictures from the day have been added below:

24DEC09D.jpg


24DEC09E.jpg


24DEC09F.jpg


24DEC09G.jpg


24DEC09H.jpg


24DEC09K.jpg


24DEC09C.jpg


J.Spin
 
Summary: 1.5” snow total in Waterbury (495’) as of 12:00 P.M. EST

Monday, December 28th, 2009: 12:00 P.M. update from Waterbury, VT

New Snow: 1.5 inches
Liquid Equivalent: 0.11 inches
Snow/Water Ratio: 13.6
Snow Density: 7.3%
Temperature: 35.6 F
Humidity: 98%
Dew Point: 34.9 F
Barometer: 1000 mb
Wind: Calm
Sky: Light Snow (1 mm flakes)
Storm snow total: 1.5 inches
Storm liquid equivalent total: 0.11 inches
Current snow at the stake: 8 inches
Season snowfall total: 28.1 inches

It’s warmed some at the house since this morning, so the flakes are accumulating more slowly now at our elevation; and they’re also very small at 1mm in diameter. I would think that the higher elevations will do notably better with the current temperatures, and here’s what I’ve seen for midday updates from some of the local ski areas:

Jay Peak: 3”
Stowe: 3” (12:00 P.M.)

J.Spin
 
Tony Crocker":1ap3lfpn said:
Any rain between Dec. 25-27? With this level of detail we need to hear about that too. :stir:
It's interesting how the east goes silent at times like this. A friend in Waterbury VT reported 38F and downpour yesterday and (although you'd never realize it from Mad River Glen's site), MRG shut down due to rain and rotten snow yesterday. Thanks to Google's cache:
Mad River Today Dec 27, 2009 at 16:15:00

Happy Holidays Skiers! Well the dreaded "weather system" did in fact deliver a mixed bag of precipitation. What started as snow turned to sleet, "sneet", ice, freezing rain, and then a bit of plain old rain. The upside is we have not lost much if any snowpack it looks as though we'll end up with an overall net gain once it is all said and done. On Monday we will be operating the Practice Slope and the Callie's Corner Handle Tow only with skiing on 2 trails. The cover on the main mountain remains decent and it will re-open as soon as the temps drop. We decided to temporarily close it down as the snow is currently "rotten" and keeping it closed will preserve it. If we can pick up a bit of snow on the back end of this system we could really come out of this thing in pretty darn good shape.
They were able to open the main mountain today after all, but talk about a lipstick on a pig snow report!

Edit to add:
Another key indicator of conditions is that MRG only has about 1/2 their trails open, predominantly the ones they usually groom, only one black diamond, and despite it being two trails, only one way down from the Single.
 
The Old Goat":2oiabg86 said:
It's interesting how the east goes silent at times like this.
Silent? Everyone in all of the other East threads was talking about our annual holiday rainstorm -- most of us got out on Xmas Day before it arrived. And the MRG report called its snow "rotten"... how much more detail do you expect them to give?

Here in upstate NY, we got six inches of lake effect this morning, and there's supposed to be another 4-6 tonight, so that should help sweeten things up. But everyone's hoping that the stars align on this one:
http://www.famousinternetskiers.com/pot ... noreaster/
 
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