Where to Live, Part Deux, or How to Make the Best of It?

[SoCal Rider]

Revised metro area list for all of North America, assuming slightly higher weight to daytrip than my own track record (5:3 ratio of my lifetime Mammoth skiing to SoCal local vs. actual skier visit ratio close to 1:1):
1. SLC
2. Reno
3. Vancouver
4. Seattle
5. Denver
6. Sacramento
7. Portland
8. Spokane
9. Calgary
10. San Francisco, with east of the bay much preferred
11. Montreal
12. Albuquerque
13. Las Vegas
14. L.A., with inland areas much preferred to coastal
15. Quebec City
16. San Diego
17. Boston
18. Phoenix

I've thought of Sacramento, which would seem kinda funny/odd/crazy to SoCalers: You're moving from San Diego to Sacramento? I do have relatives not too far from Suc-town, er, Sac-town. It definitely has clear advantages over San Diego for the winter weekend warrior.

 

[Patrick]

Patrick and I are coming closer to defining what's important and where to "agree to disagree."

I think we can agree that SF(#10) beats the best of the East at 3-4 hours from one of the top 3 concentrations of skiing in North America.

Does SF beat Montreal, maybe? :shock: :shock: :shock:

I'll come up with my own list as a geographer points of view. However I need to find the time because I'm not entirely familiar with all the cities listed versus distance and ski areas involved.

So far, the only sure thing on the list is the SLC in #1, the rest can be debated. 8)

 

[SoCal Rider]

Patrick and I are coming closer to defining what's important and where to "agree to disagree."

I think we can agree that SF(#10) beats the best of the East at 3-4 hours from one of the top 3 concentrations of skiing in North America.

Those SF beat Montreal, maybe? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Oh, you just set off Mr. Crocker.

Tahoe resorts may not have the driest snow but pretty good in terrain - quality and quantity - and season length departments. Alpine and Squaw will (or have in recent past) stay open into May.

 

[Patrick]

Tahoe resorts may not have the driest snow but pretty good in terrain - quality and quantity - and season length departments. Alpine and Squaw will (or have in recent past) stay open into May.

You won't have an argument on my part, HOWEVER ... San Francisco is a few hours away. We'll see when I get some data and fact together, not sure what the final results will be? I've got 106 areas metropolitan larger than 500k for Canada (9) and the US (97) and I'll try to use the same criteria for all. The final list is going to be debatable, that's all the fun, isn't it? :wink:

I need opinions on the criterias that I should use?

Oh, you just set off Mr. Crocker. .

It's mutual. :lol:

 

[riverc0il]

Interesting distinction between "metro area" versus "city" as Burtlington, VT would not make the metro list but would certainly beat out many in that top twenty for best city to live in. From an east coast perspective, Burlington is certainly the best city for a skier to live in but doesn't really count as a metro area.

 

[Patrick]

Interesting distinction between "metro area" versus "city" as Burtlington, VT would not make the metro list but would certainly beat out many in that top twenty for best city to live in.

Burlington is a metropolitan area according to the US Bureau of Statistics, however you are right, it would be included in my list. Reno NV either, Reno is under 500k and is #123 on the list while Burlington is #199.

I'll see how hard it will be incorporate them in my analysis. If I lower the population criteria to 200k in the US (104 more areas) and 100k in Canada (26 extra metro areas)? :-k

From an east coast perspective, Burlington is certainly the best city for a skier to live in but doesn't really count as a metro area.

Maybe...we'll wait and see. :wink:

 

[Marc_C]

Interesting distinction between "metro area" versus "city" as Burtlington, VT would not make the metro list but would certainly beat out many in that top twenty for best city to live in.

Burlington is a metropolitan area according to the US Bureau of Statistics, however you are right, it would be included in my list. Reno NV either, Reno is under 500k and is #123 on the list while Burlington is #199.

Be careful with those listings. Salt Lake City itself has a population of less than 200K but the Salt Lake Valley is well over a million.

From the wiki entry for SLC:

Salt Lake City has a population of 178,097.[1] The Salt Lake City metropolitan area spans Salt Lake, Summit and Tooele counties, and has a total estimated population of 1,333,914 (2000). Salt Lake City is further situated in a larger urban area known as the Wasatch Front, and until 2003 the Ogden-Clearfield metro area within it was considered part of the Salt Lake City metropolitan area.[2] The total estimated population of the Wasatch Front is approximately 2,150,017.

Also, a lot of people who work in SLC (and ski in the Cottonwoods) live in the ever-expanding Park City area, including Heber and Midway. All of those are the Wasatch Back.

 

[Patrick]

Be careful with those listings. Salt Lake City itself has a population of less than 200K but the Salt Lake Valley is well over a million.

I'm using metropolitan areas as defined by US Census Bureau and Statistics Canada.

Salt Lake City is #48 (1m) and on my list. My initial criteria (400k) would also include two others Utah CMA (Provo and Ogden). I'm not going to combine areas for now, just list them.

Patrick the geographer

 

[Tony Crocker]

Sacramento is an unusual place. Not that exciting, unless you're a state government junkie. Crappy weather, scorching hot summers and foggy winters. BUT 2 hours from Tahoe in one direction and less than 2 hours from SF and Napa Valley in the other. You could do at lot worse.

I'd recommend making the metro area definitions broad, like including Ogden and Provo with SLC for example. I'm not sure I drew the line in exactly the right place on my western list. Someone recently told me that Boise has doubled in the past 5 years and might be bigger than Portland or Reno. I'd rate Boise between SF and Albuquerque for skiing.

I was under the impression if you went as low in size as Burlington, you'd end up with a list of ~100 areas instead of ~20. I think the US definition you want is SMSA (Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area). It's hard enough to get people to consider relocating. Presumably the larger places have more job and cultural diversity, easier to make the non-skiing factors work. I'd draw the line at broad SMSA somewhere between 500K and 1M.

I believe than most FTO skiers would rate Tahoe second to SLC for overall ski quality. Better than the the Denver/I-70 cluster because FTO skiers seem to value steep terrain, which is much more abundant at Tahoe, and big powder dumps over the consistent smaller 6-inch type storms of Colorado. So the question becomes how far from Tahoe? Reno is closest (also 3+ hours from Mammoth) and opposite to most traffic, has to be #2 behind SLC. Sacramento is 2 hours when the roads are clean; that's clearly acceptable to most of the FTO opinion I read here. SF at 3-4 hours becomes more controversial. That's why I knocked it below Portland, Calgary, Spokane, which have less diverse but closer high quality skiing.

You easterners can also comment: how much better is Burlington than Montreal? Has border security made it more difficult for Canadians to ski Northern Vermont?

 

[jamesdeluxe]

You easterners can also comment: how much better is Burlington than Montreal?

Someone can correct me, but if I'm not mistaken:

Burlington within ~45-60 minutes:
-- Stowe, Smuggs, Sugarbush, MRG, Bolton
-- Jay a bit further

Montreal within ~45-60 minutes
-- Bromont, Shefford, Sutton, Orford... Mont Blanc, St. Sauveur, Alta and the other smaller Laurentian joints
-- Tremblant, Whiteface, and Owls Head a bit further
-- Jay two hours away?

If we're purely concerned with skiing? Burlington.

 

[Patrick]

Sacramento is an unusual place.

I'm going to base my analysis (what have I done???) based on uniquely on location.

I'd recommend making the metro area definitions broad, like including Ogden and Provo with SLC for example.

I might do that at one point, however my analysis will be quantitative, but not precise. Example, Sacramento to Mammoth direct is shorter than the actual travel, especially with Road closures.

I'm not sure I drew the line in exactly the right place on my western list. Someone recently told me that Boise has doubled in the past 5 years and might be bigger than Portland or Reno. I'd rate Boise between SF and Albuquerque for skiing.

In terms of populations, Portland metro is ranked #23, Boise #87 and Reno is #123 in the US.

I was under the impression if you went as low in size as Burlington, you'd end up with a list of ~100 areas instead of ~20.

Burlington is #199 on the list. :roll:

I'd draw the line at broad SMSA somewhere between 500K and 1M.

My initial limit was 500K, however Reno didn't make the list...However they I'm done (whenever is that), I'll draw up a few list based on pop.

I believe than most FTO skiers would rate Tahoe second to SLC for overall ski quality.

I don't discute the fact, but how many hours and miles is San Francisco from Tahoe? When I started drawing up a list, I started thinking of France and how would SF rate in France? I'm not sure yet, but distance is a big factor. Yes weekends are possible, but daytrips? I'm not going to debate now, I'm just going to enter some numbers at one points and rate some areas. I have a idea of a possible methology for this project.

You easterners can also comment: how much better is Burlington than Montreal? Has border security made it more difficult for Canadians to ski Northern Vermont?

I would personnally rate Burlington ahead of Montreal, however Montreal has some advantages. One is that it can access different regions that are affected by the same system. Townships/Upper Vermont is one system, Laurentians is another and then there is Quebec City. So Montreal has more options, if it sucks in the first region, you can go up North or Quebec City.

Burlington within ~45-60 minutes:
-- Stowe, Smuggs, Sugarbush, MRG, Bolton
-- Jay a bit further

Montreal within ~45-60 minutes
-- Bromont, Shefford, Sutton, Orford... Mont Blanc, St. Sauveur, Alta and the other smaller Laurentian joints
-- Tremblant, Whiteface, and Owls Head a bit further
-- Jay two hours away?

Under or 90 minutes: All of the Laurentians and Townships including Tremblant, Jay, Smuggs, Whiteface.

Between 90 to 150 minutes:

Stowe, MRG, Bush, Burke

Up to 3 hours:

Ste-Anne, Kmart, Cannon, Loon, Waterville and just a few minutes more Le Massif (and Massif du Sud?), Wildcat, Tucks, SRiver and Sugarloaf. Why drive any further?

If we're purely concerned with skiing? Burlington.

If we're purely concerned with skiing? I would pick J.Spin location in Waterbury. Ah yes, Waterbury isn't a metropolitan area. :wink:

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I have a idea of a possible methology for this project.

Uh oh, now we're creating a methodology? You've been infected by the Tony virus. :lol:

I would personnally rate Burlington ahead of Montreal, however Montreal has some advantages. One is that it can access different regions that are affected by the same system. Townships/Upper Vermont is one system, Laurentians is another and then there is Quebec City. So Montreal has more options, if it sucks in the first region, you can go up North or Quebec City.

Right, Burlington has far better short-distance options, but Montreal is the best East-Coast metro skiing area with everything available between 2-3 hours.

I drove through Waterbury the other day and was thinking about how well placed it is -- a few minutes to Bolton, Mad River Valley and Stowe/Smuggs, 30-40 minutes to Kmart/Pico and Burke/Jay within an hour. Nice.

BTW, has anyone checked out Bristol, VT? Every time I drive home from Sugarbush/MRG on Route 17, I stop at the cafe there, and it's the most happening little village... a few cool restaurants, lots of young people hanging out, and hot girls too! You'd think you're in a small college town, and it's maybe 15 minutes from MRV.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have a idea of a possible methology for this project.

Many years ago I thought about formulating a calculation and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

Basic outline and issues:
1) How many ski areas do you count? Having 25 little areas shouldn't add up to one Mammoth IMHO. My feeling is that the cutoff should be somewhere between 10 and 20 areas.
2) Value of each ski area is not that easy to quantify. Is size based on acreage? Not too bad, tends to favor flat areas over steeper ones, at least in the West. I constructed a "variety index" where 1 = 1 run of 1,000 vertical. Better, but still tough to estimate the increased variety of areas with open bowls and well spaced glades. Lots of work to do it right, and requires detailed first hand knowledge, not just looking at trail maps.
3) The area's value should have a reliability grade multiplier. I think my methods in constructing http://bestsnow.net/scalhist.htm are very good for this. But now you need a bunch of week-by-week historical data. Even I have this essentially only for SoCal and Mammoth. Since about 2001 I could probably come up with something decent on a regional basis. Still won't pick up nuances among areas within a region.
4) Distance multiplier. I was going to use 1 for an hour or less, .7 for 2 hours, .5 3 hours, .35 4 hours, .2 5 hours, 1/hours for > 5 hours. This will of course be controversial. There is certainly some value to being able to pack up a family and drive 8 hours to Tahoe for 4 days, or 11 hours to SLC for a week for that matter.

Now you can see why I didn't pursue this any further.

 

[riverc0il]

I drove through Waterbury the other day and was thinking about how well placed it is -- a few minutes to Bolton, Mad River Valley and Stowe/Smuggs, 30-40 minutes to Kmart/Pico and Burke/Jay within an hour. Nice.

If I could pick a town to live in Vermont without consideration for current employment, it would most certainly be the Waterbury area. Though Kmart and Pico are MUCH further than 30-40 minutes. IIRC, It is almost an hour from Kmart to Mad River Glen alone. Burke would be slightly longer than an hour but close enough but I think Jay would be slightly longer than an hour as well. Probably both of those in the 1:15 range or so pending favorable traffic and weather.

The key areas of Mad River, Stowe, and Bush are right there and just over an hour to Jay isn't much worse than my current setup though Route 100 instead of the 91 deal would be a royal pain. Though at that location, I would probably consider a pass to Mad River and take the $39 Vermonter ticket at Jay when it would be the better bet. Skinning options from that region are off the hook, practically backcountry options in your backyard. It would be two hours from Mount Washington instead of one hour for the draw back. But having Burlington right up the Interstate would be the key to seal the deal despite the drawbacks of travel to Jay/Burke/Cannon/Mount Washington etc. compared to my current locations.

But then again, that would be relocation specific which just is not happening at this point.

 

[Tony Crocker]

These finer distinctions are splitting hairs. 99+% of eastern skiers would be delighted to have Riverc0il's current location. On a national scale, anywhere in the northern half of Vermont is going to rate slightly above Montreal and somewhere below SF, depending upon one's individual circumstances.

I'll anticipate one more argument from the close-in daytrippers. JSpin is a prime example of the value of having something, anything, close-by so his kids can learn to ski in frequent, short duration sessions. No question that explains Ty's more rapid progress than Adam at similar ages. Many of you will say this is too difficult even at the distance from SF Bay area. However, Adam's college experience suggests otherwise. He says there is a dramatic difference in the quality of Northern vs. Southern California ski teams. Adam is among the elite in SoCal but would be just another skier up north. Recall that Jonny Moseley grew up, graduated high school and still lives in Marin County.

 

[From_the_NEK]

Someone can correct me, but if I'm not mistaken:

Burlington within ~45-60 minutes:
-- Stowe, Smuggs, Sugarbush, MRG, Bolton
-- Jay a bit further

Montreal within ~45-60 minutes
-- Bromont, Shefford, Sutton, Orford... Mont Blanc, St. Sauveur, Alta and the other smaller Laurentian joints
-- Tremblant, Whiteface, and Owls Head a bit further
-- Jay two hours away?

If we're purely concerned with skiing? Burlington.

I consider Burlington to be a cross between Boston and Boulder, CO as far as feel to the city. Sure it is not a huge metro area but it is a lot of fun and the is a lot of stuff going on (lots of colleges make it feel young and diverse).

Maybe an exception can be made to the city list for any metro area that is the largest in a given state even if its population is under 500K? It would of course come with an "**" explained in a footnote (Then would Manchester, NH and Portland, ME also qualify?)

Also within an hour of Burlington:
Middlebury College Snow Bowl

If you expand the travel time out to 90 minutes from Burlington you can officially add:
Jay Peak
Burke Mt
Killington
Pico
Whiteface
Gore
Mt. Sutton
Bromont

Within 2 hours you can add several NH ski areas to the list.
IMO Burlington is also a great place to be in the summer as well.

 

[From_the_NEK]

Billings, MT ** would have to be considered as well as the "largest metro area in a state that has no metro areas over 500K"

 

[From_the_NEK]

These finer distinctions are splitting hairs. 99+% of eastern skiers would be delighted to have Riverc0il's current location. On a national scale, anywhere in the northern half of Vermont is going to rate slightly above Montreal and somewhere below SF, depending upon one's individual circumstances.

You just can't deal with letting an East Coast metro area into the top 10 can you

 

[Tony Crocker]

Admin has lived in the East a lot longer than in the West and drew the same conclusion as I, slotting Montreal #12. The cities I listed above SF all have easy day commute skiing at areas far superior in scale, terrain quality and/or snow conditions to anything in the East. The next few below that have lesser daytrip skiing but superior weekend or longer drive trip skiing, and I've conceded the point that different people will assign different values to those options.

There are very few people for whom skiing is a high priority that move back East after they have lived in a western location convenient to skiing, though I know we have at least 2 here on FTO. And those few move back for job, family or other reasons, not the skiing. And more power to them when they figure out "how to make the best of it."

Smaller cities can be added to the list and I'll put my two cents in on them if you want. Montana doesn't have a big city, and distances are large up there if you're not close to the mountains.
Billings 99K, a long way from anywhere except Red Lodge, which is nicknamed "Rock Dodge" for its less than abundant snowfall.
Missoula 63K, close to 2,600 vertical Montana Snowbowl, reputation is great terrain, OK snow, 100+ miles to anywhere else I think.
Great Falls 56K, looks like ~150 miles from any mountains.

Bozeman is next in population at 34K, best ski location in the state, not as good as top 9 metro IMHO, and vs. SF you get into the day vs. weekend value issue again. This is interesting. I now think JSpin (Bitterroot Valley, probably analogous to Missoula for skiing) downgraded his skiing with his move, but not all that much.

 

[Patrick]

There are very few people for whom skiing is a high priority that move back East after they have lived in a western location convenient to skiing, though I know we have at least 2 here on FTO.

I don't think that Hamdog and JSpin regret their choices. It was interesting to speak to Hamdog on Feb 15 and I believe that he was telling me that he was having a great year, better than it he would stayed in Montana.

If I would moved out West, it wouldn't be because of the superior skiing, but more for a change of diet. I lived in the East all my life and at one point it's nice to experience something else.

As for the analysis (whenever I have the time meaning probably a few weeks after the lifts have stopped turning in the East), I was going to try to incorporated:

Distances - not road distance (too long to calculate)
Categorized ski areas (yes, ski areas aren't created equal) - thinking 4-5 categories.
Numbers of ski areas within a certain radius (by class and not absolut numbers)
Size of Metro area.
I try to figure out of a climat wildcard (don't know how I can easily do this).