Eastern Molehills and Retro Areas

[ChrisC]

This is where I generally draw the line at not seeking out. I believe I have one area under 700, Canada Olympic Park in Calgary, which was part of a comped trip from Travel Alberta and included an Olympic museum and some facilities. The other two under 1,000 are in SoCal: Ski Sunrise (now Mt. High North, rarely open, even this year I don't think so) and Kratka Ridge (defunct since 2001). Kratka's 700 has some interesting terrain. There were a couple of other lost SoCal areas, Green Valley and Snow Forest, that even in my formative years in the 1970's I did not think were worth my time. The only place under 1,000 that comes to mind as uniquely worth visiting (but I would still need to be in the region for another reason) is Mt. Bohemia.

Most of my 1000 vertical ft or fewer mountains were based on geographic location or racing opportunity. In Central/Upstate New York, 1000 feet was pretty good! Also, I did not mind going into the hills of Boston suburbs/Southern New Hampshire on a snow day when driving could be taxing to get further north. Some of these places could have decent terrain (and a lot of West Coast/Alps terrain pods are not much bigger).

Decided that a 'Molehill' cut-off was at 1200 or less vertical ft (Wikipedia info):

Ski Area / Experience*	Continent	Country	Region	State/Province	Vertical drop (ft)
Nashoba Valley	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Massachusetts	240​
Blue Hills Ski Area	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Massachusetts	309​
Holiday Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	400​
Mount Peter	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	450​
Bryce	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Virginia	500​
Boreal	North America	USA	West - Pacific	California	500​
Big Boulder	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	510​
Jack Frost	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	600​
Roundtop	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	600​
Thunder Ridge Ski Area (Big Birch)	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	600​
Ober Gatlinburg	North America	USA	East - Southeast	Tennessee	600​
Echo Mountain	North America	USA	West - Rockies	Colorado	600​
Liberty	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	620​
Ski Sundown	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Connecticut	625​
Mohawk Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Connecticut	640​
Swain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	650​
Suicide Six	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Vermont	650​
Shawnee Mountain	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	651​
Wisp	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Maryland	700​
Labrador Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	700​
Song Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	700​
Wolf Ridge	North America	USA	East - Southeast	North Carolina	700​
Cataloochee Ski Area	North America	USA	East - Southeast	North Carolina	740​
Seven Springs	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	750​
Bosquet Ski Area	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Massachusetts	750​
Donner Ski Ranch	North America	USA	West - Pacific	California	750​
Camelback Mountain	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	800​
Beech Mountain	North America	USA	East - Southeast	North Carolina	831​
Canaan Valley	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	West Virginia	850​
Lee Canyon	North America	USA	West - Pacific	Nevada	860​
Snoqualmie - Alpental	North America	USA	West - Pacific	Washington	900​
Elk Mountain	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	925​
Whitetail	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	935​
Greek Peak	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	952​
Dartmouth Skiway	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New Hampshire	968​
Montage	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	1,000​
Timberline Mountain	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	West Virginia	1,000​
Wachusett Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Massachusetts	1,000​
Catamount Ski Area	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	1,000​
Middlebury College Snow Bowl	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Vermont	1,000​
Wintergreen	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Virginia	1,003​
West Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	1,010​
Crotched Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New Hampshire	1,016​
Mountain Creek (Vernon Valley Great Gorge)	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	New Jersey	1,040​
Big Bear - Snow Valley	North America	USA	West - Pacific	California	1,041​
Blue Knob	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	1,072​
Blue Mountain	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Pennsylvania	1,082​
Plattekill Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	1,100​
Massanutten	North America	USA	East - Mid-Atlantic	Virginia	1,110​
Butternut Ski Area	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Massachusetts	1,119​
Jiminy Peak	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Massachusetts	1,140​
Bristol Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New York	1,150​
Monarch	North America	USA	West - Rockies	Colorado	1,170​
Berkshire East	North America	USA	East - Northeast	Massachusetts	1,180​
Cranmore Mountain	North America	USA	East - Northeast	New Hampshire	1,200​
Sugar Mountain	North America	USA	East - Southeast	North Carolina	1,200​

 

[Patrick]

About 40 of my East Coast ski areas have 1000 vertical ft or less. And 22 have 700 vertical feet or less. Maybe Patrick has skied more Molehills.

Probably.
Is 22 a subset of 40?

 

[ChrisC]

Is 22 a subset of 40?

Yes. 22 at 500 ft or less. 56 at 1200 ft or less.

 

[EMSC]

Decided that a 'Molehill' cut-off was at 1200 or less vertical ft (Wikipedia info):

Of course everyone has their own definition to at least some degree. Since the whole thing is more of a continuous spectrum I always felt molehill was ~750' or less. With the next rough grouping being 'small' areas with up to ~1500' verts, then on to medium sized, etc... But of course that can be somewhat modified by skiable acres for sprawling places. In reality the majority of skiers are mostly skiing ~1500' verts at a time anyway. So you go to Vail say, and ski just the upper 1500' verts most of the time despite the >3K total vertical (at least vast majority of skiers do that).

My numbers for under 500' is 13 areas, and under 1,200' is 39 areas. A much higher % figure as compared to my smaller total number of resorts.

I always find it interesting which ski areas wildly over report basically any statistic vs those that are pretty much spot on. I have looked at the majority of ski areas that I've been to on Google Earth and some are pretty much dead on to claimed vertical and some are way overstated.

Below is my list of small areas that would match your 1200' vertical definition. I did quick reference to the wikipedia info (column 'Claimed Vert'). Wikipedia seems to be missing info for private clubs though (noted as "PR"). The 'Google Earth Vert' is lift served only; and where I simply take the highest elevation of a lift and the lowest elevation from google earth which is known to be pretty accurate. So some of them are not skiable on a single run, but close enough for 'usable vertical'. Of course for the tiny resorts only one or two with hike to terrain (monarch is a good example). I figure if the Google vs Claimed is off by more than ~25 feet then the area starts getting some marketing Pinocchio demerits.

Mostly overstated, but some right on and a couple understated (the negative %'s):

Resort	State	Google Earth Vert	Claimed Vert	% Over/(Under) stated
Brantling	NY	200	250	25%​
Blue Marsh (defunct)	PA	218
Sky Valley (defunct)	GA	221
Hidden Valley	PA	363	470	29%​
Holiday Mtn	NY	373	400	7%​
Willard	NY	442	505	14%​
Bryce	VA	442	500	13%​
Howelson Hill	CO	463	440	-5%​
Snow Ridge	NY	471	650	38%​
Cazenovia	NY	481	PR
Kissing Bridge	NY	487	550	13%​
Tussey	PA	493	520	5%​
Mystic Mtn (defunct)	NY	494
McCauley Mtn	NY	501	633	26%​
Eagle Rock	PA	502	PR
Toggenburg	NY	541	700	29%​
Swain	NY	545	650	19%​
Ober Gatlinburg	TN	551	600	9%​
Song	NY	579	700	21%​
Wisp	MD	582	700	20%​
Holimont	NY	668	PR
Labrador	NY	675	700	4%​
Seven Springs	PA	716	750	5%​
Addison Pinnacle (defunct)	NY	723
Scotch Valley/Deer Run (defunct)	NY	753
Holiday Valley	NY	793	750	-5%​
Hunt Hollow	NY	818	PR
HighMount (defunct)	NY	822
Greek Peak	NY	824	952	16%​
Snowy Range	WY	867	865	0%​
Elk Mtn	PA	902	925	3%​
Vernon Valley/Great Gorge (Mountain Creek)	NJ	988	1,040	5%​
Monarch	CO	994	1,170	18%​
Montage	PA	1,001	1,000	0%​
West Mtn	NY	1,014	1,010	0%​
Big Tupper (defunct)	NY	1,023
Blue Mountain	PA	1,071	1,082	1%​
Bristol	NY	1,145	1,150	0%​
Ski Cooper	CO	1,158	1,200	4%​

 

[Harvey]

Of course everyone has their own definition to at least some degree. Since the whole thing is more of a continuous spectrum I always felt molehill was ~750' or less. With the next rough grouping being 'small' areas with up to ~1500' verts, then on to medium sized, etc... But of course that can be somewhat modified by skiable acres for sprawling places. In reality the majority of skiers are mostly skiing ~1500' verts at a time anyway. So you go to Vail say, and ski just the upper 1500' verts most of the time despite the >3K total vertical (at least vast majority of skiers do that).

My numbers for under 500' is 13 areas, and under 1,200' is 39 areas. A much higher % figure as compared to my smaller total number of resorts.

I always find it interesting which ski areas wildly over report basically any statistic vs those that are pretty much spot on. I have looked at the majority of ski areas that I've been to on Google Earth and some are pretty much dead on to claimed vertical and some are way overstated.

Below is my list of small areas that would match your 1200' vertical definition. I did quick reference to the wikipedia info (column 'Claimed Vert'). Wikipedia seems to be missing info for private clubs though (noted as "PR"). The 'Google Earth Vert' is lift served only; and where I simply take the highest elevation of a lift and the lowest elevation from google earth which is known to be pretty accurate. So some of them are not skiable on a single run, but close enough for 'usable vertical'. Of course for the tiny resorts only one or two with hike to terrain (monarch is a good example). I figure if the Google vs Claimed is off by more than ~25 feet then the area starts getting some marketing Pinocchio demerits.

Mostly overstated, but some right on and a couple understated (the negative %'s):

Resort	State	Google Earth Vert	Claimed Vert	% Over/(Under) stated
Brantling	NY	200	250	25%​
Blue Marsh (defunct)	PA	218
Sky Valley (defunct)	GA	221
Hidden Valley	PA	363	470	29%​
Holiday Mtn	NY	373	400	7%​
Willard	NY	442	505	14%​
Bryce	VA	442	500	13%​
Howelson Hill	CO	463	440	-5%​
Snow Ridge	NY	471	650	38%​
Cazenovia	NY	481	PR
Kissing Bridge	NY	487	550	13%​
Tussey	PA	493	520	5%​
Mystic Mtn (defunct)	NY	494
McCauley Mtn	NY	501	633	26%​
Eagle Rock	PA	502	PR
Toggenburg	NY	541	700	29%​
Swain	NY	545	650	19%​
Ober Gatlinburg	TN	551	600	9%​
Song	NY	579	700	21%​
Wisp	MD	582	700	20%​
Holimont	NY	668	PR
Labrador	NY	675	700	4%​
Seven Springs	PA	716	750	5%​
Addison Pinnacle (defunct)	NY	723
Scotch Valley/Deer Run (defunct)	NY	753
Holiday Valley	NY	793	750	-5%​
Hunt Hollow	NY	818	PR
HighMount (defunct)	NY	822
Greek Peak	NY	824	952	16%​
Snowy Range	WY	867	865	0%​
Elk Mtn	PA	902	925	3%​
Vernon Valley/Great Gorge (Mountain Creek)	NJ	988	1,040	5%​
Monarch	CO	994	1,170	18%​
Montage	PA	1,001	1,000	0%​
West Mtn	NY	1,014	1,010	0%​
Big Tupper (defunct)	NY	1,023
Blue Mountain	PA	1,071	1,082	1%​
Bristol	NY	1,145	1,150	0%​
Ski Cooper	CO	1,158	1,200	4%​

Snow Ridge claims 500 vert.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Wow, Montage near Scranton PA has more actual vert than Monarch?

 

[EMSC]

Snow Ridge claims 500 vert.

Could be, I was using the same Wikipedia source ChrisC used for that 'claimed' column. Interestingly, they're still overstating a touch.

Wow, Montage near Scranton PA has more actual vert than Monarch?

For lift served, by a couple feet. Of course Montage does not have hike to terrain like Monarch does though. That's where it can get trickier to suss out vertical claims. Though, as we all know, very small % of skiers will ever hike any more than from the parking lot up a bit to the bottom lifts.

 

[ChrisC]

The 'Google Earth Vert' is lift served only; and where I simply take the highest elevation of a lift and the lowest elevation from google earth which is known to be pretty accurate. So some of them are not skiable on a single run, but close enough for 'usable vertical'.

I was having a little difficulting with Google Earth Pro drawing a line between lift points and obtaining vertical drop, but I could see the altitude at pin drop locations.

My verticals were coming on even smaller?

Interesting results.

 

[EMSC]

I was having a little difficulting with Google Earth Pro drawing a line between lift points and obtaining vertical drop, but I could see the altitude at pin drop locations.

My verticals were coming on even smaller?

Couple of ways to do it:

1) Don't use a line, just use your cursor and wave it around the unload areas near base/top of lift while watching the elevation displayed in the lower right that continuously updates to the elevation of where the cursor points. I mostly use this and use a 'generous' slightly higher/lower (by a couple feet) number that I can find near the lift terminals.

2) Draw a Path, then in the "Places" box (upper left box) where it shows your line as an Item, right click on that Item and one option is to "Show Elevation Profile". Which will give you lots of statistics including elevations, elevation gain, max and average pitch (as %), etc...

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Interesting how Monarch's lift-served vert "feels" more like 1,200 and change.

Of course Montage does not have hike to terrain like Monarch does though.

I remember in January 2017, flying into Denver mid-evening from sea level and schlepping up Mirkwood Basin late morning the next day. Not advised from a cardio perspective but worth it for the soft turns after I caught my breath.

 

[Patrick]

About 40 of my East Coast ski areas have 1000 vertical ft or less. And 22 have 700 vertical feet or less. Maybe Patrick has skied more Molehills.

Yes. 22 at 500 ft or less. 56 at 1200 ft or less.

11 less than 500' since I've been 16 (1981). 24 which included tiny ones when I was a toddler.
30 less than 700' since I've been 16 (1981). 43... since aged 2.
38 less than 1000' since I've been 16. 51... since aged 2.
53 less than 1200' since I've been 16. 69... since aged 2.


500ft or less : 11 (24 on possible entire list from birth).
501 to 700ft : 19
701 to 1000ft : 8
1001 to 1200ft : 15
1201 to 1500ft : 15
1501 to 2000ft : 19
2000 to 3000ft : 46
3001+ : 49
total : 195

 

[Tony Crocker]

A molehill is sufficient to set up a race course, or these days a terrain park. That explains the huge numbers (vs. my total of 3 areas under 1,000 vertical) of ChrisC, EMSC and Patrick in their race intensive youths. Once you're an adult (my first serious season was age 26) and making your own choices, I say time is too valuable to be spending it on molehills unless you live somewhere like the Midwest where that's all that's available within daytrip distance.

 

[ChrisC]

Ode to Molehills

Here's the mountain where I have logged the most skier days - Big Birch, now Thunder Ridge Ski Area in Patterson, NY. They claim 500 vertical feet for the longest lift, but the front mountain is more like 300 vertical feet. Generally, The Face and Competition were the two runs used for racing. As you can see, Downhill was lacking.

The last thing I want is a spreadsheet documenting every day I spent there. (Pics from the Internet)

 

[Harvey]

Interestingly, they're still overstating a touch.

True. But that's a much more normal amount of exaggeration . I saw where your number came from (OnTheSnow.com?) I forget. But most sources go with 500 for SR.

One thing I saw that surprised me. In the last 2 years Gore changed all the marketing to say 120" of snow vs 150 they had been using. And that number is legit.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Here's likely my #1 skier day mountain - Big Birch, now Thunder Ridge Ski Area in Patterson, NY.

vs. Plattekill??? Only if you're a racer or park rat, and I was not aware of Harvey's interest in those options.

 

[ChrisC]

vs. Plattekill??? Only if you're a racer or park rat, and I was not aware of Harvey's interest in those options.

Sorry. Unclear. Fixed.

Thunder Mountain is where I have logged the most skier days - so #1 mountain by skier days.


Plattekill was not always the obvious choice in the 1980s/90s. It had poor snowmaking, only one chairlift, and was further away than other Catskill/Berkshire mountains.

1986 Map

Hunter generally had the most open terrain, followed by Windham and Jiminy Peak. They all had reliable steeps - and the latter two had legit some glades (Jericho) and remote runs.

If you wanted a more natural experience - Catamount and Belleayre were closer and had a lot of traditional, less skied New England style trails for powder days.

Bobcat was similar to Plattekill. T-bars and twisty runs. I am surprised Plattekill survived and did not follow Scotch Valley/Deer Run, Bobcat, etc., into the graveyard of NY Skiing.

 

[Harvey]

I am surprised Plattekill survived

Since 1993 Laz has resisted accumulating debt.

I think that has a lot to do with it. Basically every summer he spends part of the profit, if there is one.

Good terrain and snow help too.

IMO his brand is very well positioned at this moment.

 

[ChrisC]

Since 1993 Laz has resisted accumulating debt.

I think that has a lot to do with it. Basically every summer he spends part of the profit, if there is one.

Good terrain and snow help too.

IMO his brand is very well positioned at this moment.

I would agree with this. Maybe it is the MRG of the Catskills - except snowmaking is a true necessity.

Debt seems to be the downfall of most ski areas - especially in poor snow seasons or real estate environments.

Windham is now a thoroughly modern high-speed/snowmaking resort now. Maybe the WhipeOut trail is left au natural. Almost the same with Belleayre. And Jiminy. They all resemble Hunter Mountain more so than Plattekill.

Catamount and Berkshire East do not quite get as much snow.

 

[Harvey]

For some reason people feel that I'm a good person to come to with complaints about Plattekill pricing. I guess it's because I'm a vocal supporter.

I remember a day several years ago when Plattekill offered a free ski day to facebook fans to increase their followers. I kind of got into it with a guy who came and brought his own grill to cookout on the deck. At least have the decency to set up in the parking lot. I asked him if he was selling burgers, he didn't like that.

To those people who think that it's ridiculous to pay $100 (?) more for a Plattekill pass vs Belle, when it is only open three days a week, I have an alert for you. Laz doesn't give a shit if you buy a Belle pass. You are not his customer. Those lamenting the reduction in Powderdaize because of mountain rentals, you are not his customer.

This was opening day in 2019, my third run:

I stopped to take that picture because there was NO ONE behind me. One of those tracks in the pic is mine from the run before. Yeah sure your Mount Snow pass may give you a cheaper per day ski cost, so have at it. Maybe if you are big into math you could figure out how much time you spend in line in a season, or looking for a table at lunch.

Plattekill's customers are paying for an experience they value. Nobody comes up to you and tells you your wife's diamond ring was a huge waste of money because a cubic zirconia looks the same. They accept the fact that YOU see value in it and leave you alone.

Further, no one is lowering their prices in their own business when their best customers are paying it.

In the end, Laz is still there and the other places are gone.

 

[ChrisC]

For some reason people feel that I'm a good person to come to with complaints about Plattekill pricing. I guess it's because I'm a vocal supporter.

Platekill season pricing does seem a bit high at $799. Given its operating schedule, breaking even on a season pass would be hard unless you lived nearby (<1 hr). And being the Northeast, there are likely weekends you would not want to ski.

Comparatively, Mad River Glen is $829. However, I get supporting certain ski areas - like MRG and Platekill. However, if you were a MRG Co-op shareholder and bought in 1995 for $2000/share, you still have a share worth $2000. If you invested $2000 in the S&P 500 at the beginning of 1995, you would have about $30,800+ in 2023, assuming dividend reinvestment. You are definitely making a choice on what you value.

Also, did not realize New York State was selling a Big 3 (Belleayre, Gore, and Whiteface) for $859. That is a pretty good value.