Alta, UT 12/28/08

[Admin]

Dug two pits on patsey's yesterday, west facing, low elevation. Both were stable with rutschblock tests. The 'rain' layer is beginning to bond...

Good to hear.

quick edit: the most unstable layer appeared to be the depth hoar below the rain crust, large crystals...

That doesn't surprise me. The Election Day storm is turning out to be both our blessing and our curse.

 

[icelanticskier]

Not that I think there's much of a chance, but hate to hear the term "corn" thrown around in late December.

Consider that your source is an East Coaster who lived here for one season more than a decade ago.

looks like you started the fuss this time admin. all i was trying to do was offer up some advice to the gentleman when he mentioned the mid elevation bcc snowpack. from stuff i've learned while spending time in your mountain range, i thought i'd give him my .02. btw, 5 inches of new so far this morning here in nh and adding up fast. les and i are heading out to enjoy yet another pow day while yer golfing or something.
rog

 

[icelanticskier]

It is obvious this argument will never be settled.

Agreed. However, that's not the point -- the only thing that brought the age-old argument back into it was Roger's usual digression rant. He brought it up as his typical red herring response to get the topic to stray -- his patterns are so predictable and I'm ashamed to admit that they actually sucked both of us into it for a moment.

However, to bring things back on track and away from his intentional diversion, I'm still waiting for a compelling argument from him on why his armchair quarterbacking from the N.H. seacoast is more accurate regarding the current state of our snow surfaces than the observations from those of us who are actually skiing on it. To wit, there's this arrogant little gem:

oh no, you forgot that i spent the winter of 2001 there as well and have done many 10+ day trips out there in between. what admin? are you all of a sudden a west coaster? gaper. what kind of source are you? oh ya, you do 90% of your skiing at alta and don't do much touring. i can asure you that i know those mountains better than you and many that hang on this forum.

i do agree with yer armchair from nh comment as i haven't been skiing out there.my comments have more to do with causes and effects of the snow conditions. my words above may sound arrogant, but i stand behind my snow experience and will lash out to those that question it, especially those that spend most of their time skiing compacted resort conditions with or without new day in and day out and i'm glad that you and craig are friends. so you've spent what, 4 seasons skiing 70+- days a year out there? well in my 2 season i skied no less than 120 days each with many trips in between in most every drainage and aspect/elevation that the wasatch and back has to offer. i'd like to see some reports from you other than at alta, gettin kinda old don't ya think?
rog

 

[Admin]

Consider that your source is an East Coaster who lived here for one season more than a decade ago.

Which was stated in response to your suggestion that things would be corning up here this week, without having any first-hand knowledge whatsoever of our snow surfaces right now:

amazing how warm it can get in utah at all times of winter, throw in some sun and the surfaces can get nasty real quick. southerly aspects could get supportable enough for corn soon if high pressure takes hold like snake creek area, good mid winter corn can be had in there.

Those are comments that, without any foundation whatsoever, caused concern in a visitor this week:

Not that I think there's much of a chance, but hate to hear the term "corn" thrown around in late December. I was cool with no new snow given all the stability problems, but I really hoped temps would stay as low as they had to keep things nice and fresh. Guess not.

Kinda hard to know what our snow looks like when you haven't seen it for nearly 12 months, isn't it?

well in my 2 season i skied no less than 120 days each with many trips in between in most every drainage and aspect/elevation that the wasatch and back has to offer.

Well, bully for you. Too bad it was 8 years ago and more than a decade ago, respectively, not two days ago.

looks like you started the fuss this time admin.

Your delusion knows no limits.

 

[Marc_C]

The Utah Avalanche Center had this in the commentary. Wondering what elevation is considered "mid-elevation". Should this keep me out of places like BCC? Hopefully it's not a spring style crust, like the 2 weekends I was there in March last year (both before big storms).

I hope socal can find this answer amidst the mudslinging pissing contest.....

Consider that the elevation of the mouth of both BCC and LCC is around 5K', and most Wasatch peaks are between 10.5K' and 11+K'. Therefore I've always considered "mid-elevation" to be between 7500' and about 9200', but I decided to check with UAC to see how they define it. Drew wrote:

we're loosely defining mid elevation as 8-10k slopes. Much of it depends on where you are in relationship to the ridgelines, or where we had pre-existing snow.

Avi conditions shouldn't necessarily keep you out of a given canyon or even the side/back country - just make sure you know what you're doing: snow assessment, route assessment, travel protocols, staying off of steep stuff (including knowing what steep means), staying out of run-out zones, identifying islands of safety, religiously checking the avi advisory, realizing that right now it's especially tricky (witness how many snow safety experts at the resorts that have been fooled by this unpredictable, unstable snowpack), and a lot of stuff is being triggered remotely.

 

[kingslug]

My philosophy is very simple......I'm booking a trip for the middle of the month ......no explanation needed. Hope to meet up with you guys and Pete. Going to give him a call soon. This trip will be better than the last as I'm in twice the shape with 22 fewer pounds. Looking foreward to a nice hike!!!

 

[Admin]

Looking forward to skiing with you again! Sounds like we won't damned near kill you this time, either. :lol:

 

[Patrick]

:sabre fight:

Geez guys, I thought it was only Tony and I that were suppose to fight about the East-West thing. :-({|=

for all of the aspects in skiing including history

Alf Engen, Dick Durrance, Joe Quinney,

Only 1 out of 3 has his roots in the West.

I find an irony that you mentioned Dick Durrance. You realized where he was born, do you? :lol: FLORIDA!!! :mrgreen:

Dick's early childhood was in Florida, then lived in Garmish (Germany) before heading back to the States before the war. College in Dartmouth NH.

Alf Engen moved from Chicago, but grew up in Europe.

I can relate to many aspects mentioned by icelandic here below, expect the fact the east is better. I've always said, that the West isn't better, but different. Same goes with the East - not better, different.

Before Tony steps in, if acreage would be the only major factor, then the Alps would definitely be supreme. It's not, just a different experience again.

all in all, east coast skiing is just plain better.

and i stand behind that statement all the way. for all of the aspects in skiing including history, epic snows, epic thaws, epic days, and days to avoid, so many different types of snow ever changing that skis so well, lift served, bc, xc with ocean views, quaint ski towns, small town rope tows and bigger mountain trams. just more variety of everything skiwise out here in a relatively small area. of course i love skiing out there or i wouldn't visit. love skiing untracked pow every day, but skiing untracked pow every day in mountains where everything looks pretty much the same get boring to me after awhile. out here it's different skiing all of the time. some days it's pulling off 4200 vert runs from the summit of mt washington, other times it's skiing along the lampry river near the coast. the ski, surf and mountain bike all in one day, days are truly special. no rain crust skiing for me btw, i wouldn't have it, especially when there's soft snow to be had like i had b4 work this morning. gonna be skiing my 9th pow day tomorrow out of 18 days so far this season-no complaints.
enjoy the same lifts, same terrain, same scenery, same snow, well maybe not huh?, same crew, same smog-won't be long, and the same lore that keeps all of the sheep from around the globe herding up lcc to wait in line on the next big pow day.
rog

Happy New Year and PEACE - lots of skiing for you all on both coasts. Stay safe and healthy. :?

 

[Admin]

:sabre fight:

Geez guys, I thought it was only Tony and I that were suppose to fight about the East-West thing. :-({|=

We weren't supposed to be, either -- as noted above, we were supposed to be discussing the current state of snow surfaces in the Wasatch.

But if you want to discuss historical ski figures, few of the Eastern ones came from New England, either. Hannes Schneider, Sepp Ruschp, Walter Foegler, and many others were all imported from Europe. Even Roland Palmedo, Lowell Thomas and CV Starr were from NYC, not Vermont -- Vermont skiing was (and is) an out-of-stater's sport. And let's not be blind to the fact that NYC was the monetary center of the country, hence their location, and the Northeast was (and still is) the country's population base. It's not like Northeasterners at the time could hop the next Delta flight to SLC when it snowed, so they made do with what they had. :snowball fight:

If we look north to Quebec, few were as instrumental in developing the province's skiing than Fred Pabst, and he wasn't a Quebecer, either.

 

[Patrick]

But if you want to discuss historical ski figures, few of the Eastern ones came from New England, either. Hannes Schneider, Sepp Ruschp, Walter Foegler, and many others were all imported from Europe. Even Roland Palmedo, Lowell Thomas and CV Starr were from NYC, not Vermont -- Vermont skiing was (and is) an out-of-stater's sport. (...)

If we look north to Quebec, few were as instrumental in developing the province's skiing than Fred Pabst, and he wasn't a Quebecer, either.

Fred Pabst was only one of many, Europeans, Americans or Canadians to participate in the developing skiing in Quebec. The first rope-tow was build by a Canadian.

Cochand (Swiss), Jackrabbit Johanssen (Norway), Ryan (US), etc etc...skiing as a sport was brought to America (not only US) by the Europeans, that is a simple fact.

 

[Admin]

Cochand (Swiss), Jackrabbit Johanssen (Norway), Ryan (US), etc etc...skiing as a sport was brought to America (not only US) by the Europeans, that is a simple fact.

I agree whole-heartedly, which then leaves me wondering why you pointed out earlier in response to my comments about Engen, Quinney and Durrance,

Only 1 out of 3 has his roots in the West.

 

[Patrick]

I agree whole-heartedly, which then leaves me wondering why you pointed out earlier in response to my comments about Engen, Quinney and Durrance,

Only 1 out of 3 has his roots in the West.

Well, it's a fact, isn't it?

I also wanted to get a link between yourself and Dick...From Florida to Alta. You are just missing the fact that I don't think you went to college in Dartmouth, lived in Germany or participate in the Olympics among other things? But you're still young, Durrance until his 90s, so you have something like 50 years to accomplish the rest.

Don't worry, I think I was been compare to Plake, ZZ top and Santa in ski forums at some times or other. :wink:

 

[Admin]

I also wanted to get a link between yourself and Dick...From Florida to Alta. You are just missing the fact that I don't think you went to college in Dartmouth, lived in Germany or participate in the Olympics among other things? But you're still young, Durrance until his 90s, so you have something like 50 years to accomplish the rest.

I'll get right to working on it. :lol:

 

[icelanticskier]

ok, i'll be honest here. the east being better was a way to get yer panties in a bunch. i fully agree/feel that one isn't better than the other and they are just different animals. and salida is right in saying that i got my "full season" wasatch fill in during those two seasons that i lived there. and yes, 10 days or so does quench my thirst for a change of scenery and foofyness. if i liked skiing out there better than here and liked the quality of life, i'd probably move back as lesley says she'll move anywhere at anytime and with a 40k a year job with no mortgage or ties, it'd be very easy for me to move anywhere at any time. but, i like my 100 day season here just fine for all that it offers up high and down low on all types of sliding gear all over new england all of the time depending on where the snow is best. today it was 8" of fresh pow skiing to finish off 2008. the pow may have skied great at alta today and it skied damn well here in new hampshire.
happy pow year!
rog

 

[jamesdeluxe]

i'd like to see some reports from you other than at alta, gettin kinda old don't ya think?

So Admin, where are you skiing next?
:-k

 

[ski-the-face]

i think i will just go to jackson hole this year

 

[Harvey]

Where is Tony in all this? I expect him to split this into like 100 threads and make up cool names for all of em.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Where is Tony in all this?

I think admin was handling the situation just fine.

Back on topic: IMHO Utah "mid-elevation" = Park City group, Snowbasin, Powder Mt.

 

[Admin]

happy pow year!

Same to you!

Hug it out, you two

There, happy now? :lol:

So Admin, where are you skiing next?
:-k

Me? I'm goin' to Disney!

(OK, Blizzard Beach)

 

[socal]

I'll keep out of the East vs West argument, sorta. There's really no reason to discuss the east in my opinion. Better snow, more snow, more consistent snow, very little rain, and actual mountains in the west. Sure if you live near a ski resort in the east why not spend time there but otherwise, it's usually not worth the 5-8hr drives from NY/PHL/WDC. Moving on.

Today at Alta was pretty decent. Timed the opening of Catherine's Area pretty well. Probably made 3rd tracks or so all the way out the traverse; but really not worth it since it was about 4-6 inches of snow on top of a supportable base (wide skis mattered here) but the LONG (10-20 minutes) lift lines for Supreme and the trek out there just weren't worth it; plus I don't know that area well enough to find the right pitches. Wildcat was okay but really bumped up, High Rustler was bumped up and the light was kinda flat when we were on it so it was tough going, best skiing by far was gunsight and eagles nest. Gunsight was excellent. Didn't bother with ballroom since a patroller told us it was mostly avalanche debris.

2nd day of the season and we went from 9:30 to 5 (one of the last chair up Collins) with about an hour for lunch. Good day, but hoping for some snow. Just a few inches would make a huge difference in areas without bumps on them. Pictures and hopefully a TR to come, now gotta find something to do for New Years.