DISTURBING TRENDS

joegm

joegm

New member
I HAVEN'T SHOT OFF MY MOUTH IN A WHILE, SO WHAT BETTER TIME TO DO SO THAN THE ANNUAL KILLINGTON PROPAGANDA PRESS RELEASE. NORMALLY I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM AT ALL WITH THE OCT 1ST " BLOW OUT THE MICE" TEST AND OBLIGATORY PRESS RELEASE ( SEE WHATS NEW LINK ). BUT THE CLEAR AND DISTURBING TREND AMONG SKI CORPS IS GROWING LIKE A FUNGUS... AND THE ASC/ KILLINGTON SECTION SEEMS TO BE FALLING TO THE SICKENING DISEASE... LETS GO STRAIGHT TO THE HORSES ASS, ER, MOUTH. <BR>ALL QUOTES ARE VERBATIM COMP OF RICH MCGARRY, GM OF K-ROCK AND OR ASSORTED MOUTHPIECES <BR>QUOTE #1- " EXPECTS TO OPEN FOR THE WINTER SEASON IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS" NO BULL INTERPRETATION OF QUOTE #1- WE WILL OPEN WHEN WE DETERMINE THAT THE AMOUNT OF TERRAIN WE CAN OFFER WILL ATTRACT ENOUGH WEEKEND WARRIORS TO PAY FOR FULL PRICE SINGLE DAY TICKETS AND OUR SET DAILY REVENUE MARGINS CAN BE MET <BR>QUOTE #2" WE PLAN TO OFFER TERRAIN ON OPENING DAY LIKE LAST SEASONS HISTORY MAKING BEGINNING TOP TO BOTTOM TERRAIN FOR UPPPER INTERMEDIATE AND ADVANCED SKIERS AND RIDERS <BR>NO BULL INTERPRETATION OF QUOTE #2- WE PLAN TO HOLD OFF OPENING PROBABLY TILL HALLOWEEN OR SO BECAUSE THE MARGINS JUST DON'T GET MET UNTIL WE CAN OFFER TOP TO BOTTOM SKIING AND ATTRACT THE LOWER INTERMEDIATE , BUT DEDICATED, SKIER WHO WILL NOT PAY MONEY TO UPLOAD OR DOWNLOAD TO ACCESS SNOW <BR>QUOTE #3- " ITS PART OF OUR WHOLE SNOWMAKING PHILOSOPHY HERE AT KILLINGTON...WHETHER ITS THE FIRST RUN OF THE SEASON OR THE 100TH RUN... WE WANT THE SNOW QUALITY TO BE ENJOYABLE FOR OUR GUESTS.. WHEN WE OFFICIALY OPEN, WE WANT TO STAY OPEN THROUGH THE END OF THE SEASON " <BR>NO BULL INTERPRETATION OF QUOTE #3- OUR NEW PHILOSOPHY HERE AT KILLINGTON IS FALLING RIGHT IN LINE WITH OUR OTHER SISTER RESORTS.. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE AVERAGE BLUE CRUISER SKIER WHO PAYS FULL PRICE FOR A DAILY TICKET... ALL OF YOU SICK BIRDS WHO ARE THE HEART AND SOUL OF SKIING CAN GO LICK A STAMP... WE HERE AT ASC HAVE GOT YOU OVER A BARREL.. YOU'RE COMING NO MATTER WHAT... BUT BECAUSE YOU DIRTBAGS DO NOT POST ENOUGH MARGIN FOR US, WE ARE NOW DEDICATING OURSELVES TO THE WEEKEND WARRIORS THAT SPEND ...IN ACCORDANCE WITH THIS , WE WILL BE SHRINKING THE SHOULDERS OF THE SEASON TO CUT COSTS AND BOOST MARGINS... U CAN KISS GOODBYE ANY FOOLISH IDEAS OF SKIING IN EARLY OCTOBER, REGARDLESS OF THE WEATHER... WE COULD HAVE 3 FEET ON THE GROUND AND WE R NOT GONNA SPIN LIFTS TILL NOV 1ST BECAUSE ALL OF YOU DIRT BAGS DO NOT MEET SET MARGINS. WE NOW OFFER YOU THE TRAP OF SEASON PASSES SET AT OUR ARTIFICIALLY LOW PRICES. AND THOSE LOW PRICES FOR THE SEASON PASSES COME WITH A COST.. MAINLY THE SHOULDER SEASONS... MAY AND OCTOBER... BUT WE DON'T GIVE CRAP ABOUT PEOPLE WHO SKI THEN, CAUSE AGAIN, YOU'RE COMIN ANYWAYS... SO IF ANY OF YOU DIRT BAGS THINK YOU CAN COUNT ON SKIING IN OCTOBER AND MAY ANYMORE REGARDLESS OF CONDITIONS, THE JOKE'S ON YOU... <BR> POSTSCRIPT- I THINK THE ONE LINE THAT I FOUND THE MOST DISTURBING/SICKENING/EMBARASSING/DISGUSTING WAS THE ONE ABOUT OFFERING " QUALITY SNOW " FOR THE CUSTOMERS. I ALMOST SMASHED MY MONITOR WHEN I READ THAT, CAUSE THAT LINE OF HORSE FECES REALLY GETS ME GOING....THAT'S A LINE I EXPECT TO HEAR FROM ATTITASH OR LOON OR SOME OTHER TERMINALLY INTERMEDIATE LOVERS HILL. "OH MY THIS CARPET OF PACKED POWDER IS SUCH A JOY TO SKI ON ". HEY MCGARRY YOU IDIOT, THE CARPET LOVERS AREN'T SKIING IN OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER.. ANYONE WHO IS , DOESN'T GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT THE SNOW " QUALITY " BUT THEN AGAIN IT'S NOT ABOUT US ANYMORE IS IT? <BR> IT'S A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS WE HAVE GOING ON HERE BOYS... FRANK'S OLD PHOTOS OF EPIC DAYS IN LATE MAY AND JUNE AT K ARE FAST BECOMING RELICS!!!!! WHAT A SHAME... LES OTTEN .. YOU STILL REALLY REALLY SUCK... and u know what else , the red sox will never win it all with your sorry ass connected to the organization
 
Joe ! What would be the No-bulls without you ! <BR> <BR>It wouldn't be call no-bulls for sure ! lol <BR> <BR>I didn't see the press release, but I trust you on this. Talking margins, I can understand them, as it's not a charity organism and as I'm a very soon CA. But my vision of a ski area is a non-profit organism or a cooperative... so I agree with you on most of your points ! (the problem is that considering the capitalism so much developped in USA, it would be surprised to see a big resort like Killington becoming a non-profit desired one). <BR> <BR>The corp. ski areas really s**k in general for our kind of skiers, cause they're oriented to please to the costumers who will spend a lot of money and it's not us. It is not normal that a "wanna have profit" ski area have a good terrain for us, as we're not in their market. <BR> <BR>However, I must say that it's a good thing that you have Killington, cause on this marketing game, St-Sauveur is 10x worst than Killington. They also always do a press release when they're trying their snowguns. They would NEVER accept to open a trail when there is some walking, so they groom the trails until the end, which make it melt faster. Finally, they never removed the snow in the Nordic, at the end of last season, to put it into the West 70, to have another week without walking and another after with some walking. (closing on memorial weekend, so) <BR> <BR>Why I don't cry against MSS is because I was too young, when MSS were used to close in late may / early june. I just began skiing in may there in 2001, so I less feel like missing something ! <BR> <BR>ASC got a lot of cash, when they sold Heavenly. If they can sell another ski area or two, in the coming years, Killington could reopen early / close late, as they did the 2 first years they got the area. In 1996-97, they opened on oct 4 and closed on about June 21 and in 1997-98, they opened on october 1, closing early, but look at the conditions on Tucks on mid-may 1998 and you will understand why they closed early (there was about the same amount of snow on mid-may 1998 than on mid-JUNE 2003). <BR> <BR>So let's just hope ASC will send all their other resorts and with that, they will possibly be able to manage Killington decently !
 
As a skier who has been skiing Killington since 1983, it is sad to see them not take advantage of the early season chance to open right now, even if it was just for a couple of days. Loveland has not been making much snow until this point due to the fact that most of the cold weather has been east of the rockies, so Killington could have been the only game in town for at least a few days. Unfortunatly ASC is not in good financial shape and they own own Killington with its high elevation trail layout that is conducive to early season snowmaking. I guess that Sugarbush, with a great upper elevation trail system at Sugarbush North is not in contention to compete with Killington???? I personally find that Killington's <BR>snowmaking policy of the late 90's of building up great base depths on Rime And East Glade to be a better option in the early season than exposing low elevation trails down to the base with warmer temperatures and thin cover. The only down side to this is the use of the shuttle truck, due to the removal of the Killington chairlift with mid-station, but this issue is dead and buried in the past.
 
I was typing last end before the system crashed. Unfortunately Joe is right. I don't see Killington pushing the envelope (ie. early October - June) any more, unless something radical happens. The big ski corporations are more interested in shareholders than the skiers (not only the die-hard like us). <BR> <BR>If this was ten years ago Killington would've opened Thursday and probably close by next Wednesday (forecast maximum in Ottawa is 18c, yesterday at 8am it was -1c, max. was 8c). Until the next cold spell a week or two later. <BR> <BR>For all other comments I have about Kmart on the current situation, see last May mega-discussion on Killington (140 messages). <BR> <BR>I know something about the relic pics of June (that was only a sample that I posted), I believe I might have skiied Killington twice since June 15, 1997. Generally I would ski Killington 2-4 times every May-June since 1984 plus sometimes a few extra days during the Fall and Winter months. Nowadays I don't feel like paying a fortune (especially for us Canadians) to ski one trail in May when Ste.Anne closes the first weekend of May with 18 trails and $35 (approx.$20-25 US). <BR> <BR>I am a Die-Hard that not willing to put up with this ****, let alone drive more than 5 hours to reach it (Ste.Anne is also 5hrs from Ottawa).
 
totally agreed about the interpretation of hte press release. <BR> <BR>to boot, this is an idea of how they view the early/late season "margin sucking maggots" such as us: last year went to killington may 17th & 18th... was disturbed to findthat that a two day pass for superstar was 68 bucks... that was almost 50 canadian dollars a day! but of course, what was i going to do... i just spent 9 hours driving there... wasn't going to leave without skiing... <BR> <BR>BOO for the mighty K.
 
I agree, the last time I skied at killington was about two years ago when they had an early season ski for free day. The mountain is good but cost way to much and they are only open if they can make a buck on the skiers. Way to expensive, I will any ski area any day for 30 dollars less. <BR>Porter In NH
 
Hey jonny... take a mid-week pass to Mt Shefford... 49$ CAN for the season and just 8h from Toronto :-p lol <BR> <BR>For a mid-week lift ticket, it's 12$ for adult and 10$ for students. Alta is also at 12$ for adults, when they're open on mid-week (all february + holiday week). <BR> <BR>This is what I call real skiing, cause of course, we talk here of real super ski hills ! <BR> <BR>(for those who want a lot of comfort and real lifts, Mt Gabriel beside St-Sauveur is now extremely cheap. 15$ midweek for adults & students (30$ weekend however). We talk here of 2 quads, 1 triple, 3 glades, 3 mogul runs and some "decent" other trails !) <BR> <BR>Without joking (and marketing :p), the big ski areas are really over expensive. I don't see a big advantage for the vertical, as it's really rare to have some incredible trails over 1000' high and often, it's not possible to combine some great trails in one run. So I wouldn't be ready to pay some ridiculous prices to ski some places like Killington. I prefer to do 50+ runs at Alta, cause I know I'll just have the time to take the good trails 1-2 times, they are just too numerous !
 
By the way, I called the snow phones at Sunday River and Sugarloaf, and both recorded messages are from the end of last season. This is now October 5th, is it not time to at least make your customers anticipate the upcoming ski season with new recordings? I do not want to hear about closing day in April when I am calling in October!!! At least talk about colder weather and snowmaking tests. Poor show ASC!!!!
 
Here's my 2 cents- and probably not popular on this board. Spending untold kilowatts to make snow for a few people for a couple of trails in the first week of October MAKES NO SENSE! Anyone ever here of global warming? Guess what- regardless of making water into snow, you're burning kilowatts and contributing. So as winters get warmer, remember- we helped make them that way. So why don't you stay on the mountain bikes for a couple more weeks, sharpen your edges, and wait until it is really cold enough to make a base that will stay there! Sorry, I love to ski, but can certainly do without it for a few more weeks. <BR>Cheers!
 
Not exactly very popular effectively (and I'm eager to see the reaction of Joegm), but I can understand your point of view. <BR> <BR>There is very few maniac dedicated skiers in the east, but most of the regulars on this board are some very dedicated ones. So we would do anything to ski anytime of the year in the east. <BR> <BR>The only sport that I "almost" love as skiing is the hiking and unfortunately, at this moment of the year, if there is good sceneries to see, there is a lot of mud too, and it becomes quite less interesting, as the steep rocking trails become too sliding to be hiked. With the first snowfalls arrived, there is only the ski in my mind and I stop to think about every other sports or activities. So it raises the withdrawal to its peak and I must ski fast, before I become crazy ;) <BR> <BR>I agree that Killington was making a mistake, opening so early in the past, cause it was only profitable on their old situation and as they evolved, it wasn't possible anymore to make it profitable and they had created some big expectations to the dedicated skiers. Killington probably wouldn't be able to reopen so early with profit in the coming years, unless big changes. <BR> <BR>The only way to see back some skiing in early october would be to find some "winner conditions". In those conditions, there would be a good location (north/north east, upper elevation, early natural snowfalls possible, clean terrain, ± dedicated lift). Another point would be the snowmaking technology, and it's good to see some new systems, less expensive, like ICS of Snowmagic (Tenney). The other point of course would be the market ! I don't know for USA, but here, we're in a very big increase of the market of skiing and the people are slowly becoming quite more dedicated. If we're able to create a sufficient demand to let a ski area open very early, combined with the other criterions, we should see some skiing in october. After all... just imagine that Snowmagic bring their technology at Mont Saint-Bruno, here. You have all the mentioned points, except the elevation and natural snowfalls, but the latitude corrects those disadvantages. MSB could be the next to open with profit in early october in my opinion. (For those who don't know, over 2 000 000 people live at less than 30 minutes of MSB, including hundreds of thousands of skiers).
 
I lean toward the dissenting camp on the subject of super early season skiing. In a couple of recent seasons my first ski day has been on the weekend after New Years at Mammoth. <BR> <BR>We advanced skiers should have a different attitude toward the early and late seasons. The runs open late tend to be steep and heavily mogulled, the preference of many on this list. The first runs open are usually low intermediate in pitch, groomed, and overrun with skier traffic. That's what you get at Loveland in October. With the exception of unusual dumps like last November's, the natural expert stuff up on the Divide doesn't get covered until January most years. <BR> <BR>We have one of the premier snowmaking systems here in SoCal at Snow Summit, and they don't start blowing snow until they think they can make it stick and stay open. This makes sense to me in view of the high expense in terms of power consumption. Once they start, they do blow snow at every opportunity through at least February, both to open new terrain and to resurface runs degraded by rain, warm weather or traffic. <BR> <BR>In the early 1980's I would run out to Big Bear (2 hours drive one way) as soon as they opened in late November/early December, usually at night to avoid the congestion. Now I wait until Snow Summit is 50-60% open and there will be a couple of steeper and/or less congested runs. <BR> <BR>Ski areas have finite resources, and I believe the expert skiing communtiy would be best served lobbying for the late closings over the early openings. Most of us skiers also have finite resources (in time or $) and I believe that the quality of skiing is consistently overrated in early season and consistently underrated in late season and allocate my ski days accordingly.
 
my take on anonymous' point is as follows...i probably should have made more clear my expressed concern's over the apparent delay of the start of the season... my point was to expose what i see as the shrinking shoulders of the season.. i find a delayed opening much less problematic that i find the early closing.. but the two, in this case , seem to be undeniably connected... maybe it;''s just coincidence.. but i doubt it...only a fool with no understanding at all of business operations would blindly condemn the asc for holding out opening... but there is a much bigger point that i'm trying to point out. the proliferation of cheap season passes is coming with a heavy cost... mainly, spring skiing... spring skiing is being offered up to the chopping block, ( as well as early season, but like i said , that is less of an issue to me )with these price structures. $ 299 bucks to ski k for the season midweek... they lose money on that... well at least they lose money on it with me, that's for sure...i'll get 25 days on that pass... i would gladly pay double that if i could be assured of lift access through may. but they are apparently willing to lose money if they can gain it in other ways...it's obvious to anyone who frequents k that they made less snow in general the last 2 years and much less snow in particular on the superstar... anonymous, my point was not to complain, necessarily, about the delayed opening... it's more about the shrinking season as a whole, with my focus being on late season.... THE BEST TIME TO SKI... they refuse to market this concept and the public refuses to demand it and therefore they just shut it down and concede that people just don't care about skiing after the first week of april... i find it to be frustrating, stupid, illogical, foolish and just plain dumb... they find it to be more profitable, apparently. in fact, i would advocate, similiar to tony c's m.o, not even opening till the week before christmas if it meant they would promise me lift accessed turns on june 1st... but if they can sell, 60 plus dollar lift tickets in november, there gonna do it... the public, not to disparage anyone unfairly, is too stupid and or too unskilled/inept to figure out that when compared to may skiing, november skiing sucks... i always assumed that the concept of margins did not necessarily have to be applied across the board on an even basis.. meaning, i always assumed that weekend skiers and their margins, made up for, in some sense, that obvoiusly lower margins of the mon-fri skiers... i assumed , that that concept could be used in a bigger application in terms of , the christmas to mid march skiers and the holiday / school vaca prices they pay, could somehow help justify the lower margins obtained when spinning lifts in november and may... SILLY ME... then again, one can see how that delicate, and i concede it is delicate, margin line could be blown by some really bad real estate speculation(s)... THANKS LES... you still suck... i have no problem with the concept of not opening until a ski company can be assured they can stay open and sustain operations... no problem at all... but to delay that opening, and base a large part of it on wanting to offer perfect packed powder carpet, aka " QUALTIY SNOW CONDITIONS " , for the customer, is bogus. i have a large problem with a ski company closing lifts with ample amounts of skiable terrain because they feel they cannot meet their preset revenue margins on a daily basis, even if those margins are made up for in differing time periods...it's not a simple problem, i know that...i don't hate the ski industry, i just hate the direction it seems to be moving in...then again 20 years ago, i don't think peole were suing ski areas either... was scott schmidt exagerating when he proclaimed "people suing ski areas should be shot "....? sometimes i wonder
 
You said it all ! <BR> <BR>I may have just a little bit other point to talk about. <BR> <BR>I agree that the spring skiing is 2x more interesting than the november skiing, but after a long season, most of people are not interested to ski in a single trail... especially when it's too hard for most of people. After summer, most of the skiers would pay a lot to ski, so the "opening" market is certainly quite more profitable than the "late" market. <BR> <BR>Anyway, let's just hope that this season will be october-june for K !! (and for La Réserve... my own interests) (and up to august for Tucks <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)">)
 
i'm going to toss in my 2 cents as well. I especially agree with the fact that both ski areas and skiers have finite resources, and to boot we only have finite environmental resources (methods of generating power to blow snow, water to user for snowmaking, and the impact that a VERY long season would have on it's immediate environment). I would definatley concede early season skiing to late season skiing, and I remember once reading an article (maybe and editorial here) about how we should boycott the waste of resources in areas that open early in favor of using those resources more judiciously in favor of a later season. I think this is a great idea. <BR> <BR>However, we are in a catch-22 situation: if we only make good use of mid-winter conditions to make snow, and try to reduce skiier traffic in the later season (to help the snowpack hold up longer) for a later closing, then the cost of a late season (or midwinter) ticket will need to increase to make up for lost revenue. <BR>But if we simply make tonnes of snow throughout the entire season (starting late Nov, early Dec.) and try to bring in lots of people to cover the increased cost of operations, the snowpack won't hold up as well, and the season won't be too extended. <BR> <BR>So we really can't have a longer season without higher prices (though I firmly agree that poor realestate prospects have made a huge contribution to increased prices more than increased operating costs.) <BR> <BR>(That said, we should all be so lucky as those who live near Bannf and get to ski Sunshine Village from Nov-late May without a flake of man-made snow.) <BR> <BR>Probably the best late season scenario is a resort that doesn't have much in the way of realestate speculations, doesn't push the envelope for early opening, and is willing to simply make snow from Dec-march weather permitting.
 
Good points, Jonny ! <BR> <BR>I just got a little idea. The ski areas are blowing a ton of snow in all the trails, in the early season. Why not just push enough snow to be sure to remain open if there is defrosts, except in few major trails where they could push a good lot of snow. After that, in late feb/ early march, blowing some snow only in the most popular trails. Anyway, there is just a little number of spring skiers, actually. <BR> <BR>This would give : <BR> <BR>- fair number of trails open for christmas <BR>- not too much ice-making in the mountain <BR>- quite less expensive in early season <BR>- they would have money to push snowmaking in the interesting spring skiing trails in mid-season. <BR> <BR>This is probably not optimal, but the fact remains that the ski areas really make too much snow in many trails. See my thread of "Ski & Hike Fest 2003" of april 25 and look at the pics of Val Saint-Côme. It was closed for 12 days and almost all the trails could have been open, even without new snow. There was still 3-4 feet of snowdepth in the major trails... It's some hundreds of thousands $$ spent for nothing !!!! <BR> <BR>Imagine if they put all that "lost" snow in the Grand Prix (a nice steep advanced trail very good for the "Slalom" competitions). It would still be open today with the snow from last season !!! (I imagine the trail with 100' high of snowdepth) lolololol <BR> <BR>Considering there is some competition teams from British Columbia and Alberta that came at the resort for this trail, last november, as it was the first competition trail opened in Canada, I'm sure they could operate it, very late in spring, even though it's facing 100% south.
 
oops, for the pic of VSC, I didn't post the one I though, finally. The center trails had less snow in general than the neighbour trails. The GP is the big one of center-right, though... and I'm not to post a pic of VSC in a Killington thread ;)
 
As a ski fanatic which hasn't skied in November in 10 years, I agreed that the skier tourist are more interested to ski marginal conditions (few trails) at full price instead of great conditions (most trails) at discount prices. Did Sugarloaf ever end it's season with less than 50% of their trails open? <BR> <BR>Personaly, I had to make a financial and time choice. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford heading down skiing most weekend early season. I had to choose my days and budget my year by looking for deals. <BR> <BR>I agreed with the environmental aspect mentioned by anonymous, the ressource and energy behind snowmaking and not very environmental friendly. I believe I read that most of Colorado electricity is produced by coal burning plant!!! Talk about bad for the environment. Probably in Downhill Slide: Why the Ski Industry is Bad, etc. <BR> <BR>Unfortunately the problem is not only the snowmaking. The lifts, the resorts villages in fragile mountain environment and the number of skiers' driving SUVs and other vehicules all contribute, in the longterm, the shorting our ski seasons regardless of snowmaking. Glaciers are over the world are affected. <BR> <BR>Those old enough will remember the Winters prior to the 80s. Longer season (temperature wise), less mid Winter-thaws. The fact that last Winter was cold in the East was unfortunately an exception. I know this is not, in it self a proof of global warming. <BR> <BR>Early Season skiing at Killington solution: <BR>Tear out the K1 Gondola and put back the Peak Double without forgeting the mid-station. Less ressources for early/late season skiing (as I mentioned last May).
 
LOL I would like to see that... Killington removing the Gondola to put a double instead. <BR> <BR>Thanks to talk about the fact of how the power is built. I forgot that point, cause here, except the development of the dams, it remains not so bad for the environment. <BR> <BR>Honestly, except if it's with diesel, I don't think the chairlifts bring a lot of pollution or global warming. And for the skiers with SUV, if we're talking of 0,0000000001% of the people on earth, I don't think their contribution to the pollution is so big... although I would like me too that this kind of car stop to exist. At least make them less pollutant !
 
It might be 0,000000001% of the people on Earth, but they do produce much much more than what the average driver produces, let alone what the average human on Earth produce in green house gases. Plus the SUVs like other trucks have lower environment standard than cars. Trucks were except because initially they were mainly bought for business and industry. <BR> <BR>Next time you go skiing in a ski resort, look at what the percentage of SUVs are in the parking lot, you would be amazed. The same comparision can be done on the Highways at rush hour. Frank, thankfully the percentage of SUVs/cars sold in Canada is less (but still too high), but if you happend to go to Kmart, Sunday River or elsewhere in the States you will see what I am talking about. <BR> <BR>Although the US only represent roughly 5% of the World population, it produces between 25% to 50% (can't remember the exact number - you still get the picture) of green house gases. <BR> <BR>Canada is not so great either, on the per capita basis we were close to the top, right behind the US. <BR> <BR>Electricity needed to run lifts. A double definately needs much less electricity than a HSQ or Gondola.
 
The balance between early and late season skiing is not the same East vs. high altitude West. I skied Killington Nov. 7, 1993 and April 29, 1990 and the terrain open and mogul skiing were roughly equivalent. When you factor in that the groomed skiing was like glue in spring and that I hadn't skied in over 4 months in November, I would rate the November day the better skiing experience. <BR> <BR>So I think the criterion of "can we make the snow stick" is the right one. If it sticks it's also buiding the base for your late season and not wasting energy to build the same trails multiple times. This also supports Frank's point that the early snowmaking should be concentrated on a few trails and not broadened to a lot of terrain until the washout risk is diminished around late November. <BR> <BR>With regard to global warming, the trend over the past 30 years is clear; proving cause and effect is the hard part. The most rapid receding of glaciers occurred in the early 20th century, and there was a cooling trend from the 1940's to 1970's. That's not to say a 20-40% chance (my guess) of man-made cause should be ignored. We try to insure against many natural events with lower probabilities than that. <BR> <BR>In my 35 years of snow stats the only evidence of warming is from the Whistler base at 2,200 elevation. 5 of the 6 best seasons are from the early 1970's, and when the 1974 record alpine snowfall record was broken in 1999, the base had only 65% as much snow as 1974. <BR> <BR>As far as eastern skiing is concerned, average midwinter temps are still very low, and the impact of warming will be primarily on the shoulder seasons. Mt. Mansfield at 3,950 elevation averages 3 days and 2.3 inches of rain in November and the October number must be much worse. So my opinion is that late October is the right time for key eastern snowmaking trails to open, with extension to a broader area only when there is a favorable extended forecast. <BR> <BR>Killington may be adopting the right early strategy though perhaps for the wrong reason. The evidence of them just being cheap is if they don't continue making snow at every opportunity through at least the end of February like Snow Summit does.
 
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