We established back in March that Fraser had no recollection of using that adjective to describe them.
So I drew the conclusion that expensive + unreliable = overrated?
Europe 23/24
- Thread starter Sbooker
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So I drew the conclusion that expensive + unreliable = overrated?
ChrisC
Well-known member
I bristle when we talk about skiing in the Alps in sweeping terms -- "it's always like this" and "it's always like that." There are all sorts of scenarios depending on your target region and where/how a storm is going to hit.
I skied at St. Moritz/Corviglia during last Wednesday's storm because I'd committed to it (bought three days of almost half-price tickets through my lodging with a use 'em or lose 'em setup) and knew that the only trees I'd encounter were on the valley runs back into town.
With flexibility, which is almost always my SOP, you can divert to an appropriate ski area if the precip comes in at a low elevation. The oft-trotted-out gold standard for this was my March 2016 visit to Mythen, only 22 miles south of Zurich (a top altitude of only 1,600 meters!). Playing amongst the trees on a storm day and enjoying the leftovers on the following bluebird day.
My UK friends gave a big NO to Gstaad and Glacier 3000.
Meanwhile they are in Zinal for the week.
But the rains were really bad. …. I think anyplace below 2000m likely got washed out.
Great snow up high….but snowmaking to villages.
What's wrong with Glacier 3000? Surely most terrain was above the rain line? We are certainly considering a day there.
Good snow above 2000 metres doesn’t sound that bad to me.
That means I’m looking for a nice town with a few mountains around it (within an hours drive) with adequate terrain up to 2500 metres. I’m happy with 500 vertical of decent snow. I don’t care if I’ve got to catch the gondola back to my car in the afternoon.
While there is a sizable group of people who book vacations at high-end/low-elevation resorts in the Western Alps like Megève, La Clusaz, Gstaad, etc. no matter what the prevailing conditions may be, they don't frequent this forum. FTOers as a (very small) group don't "rate" them as good choices during marginal or borderline weather periods so the adjective "overrated" doesn't make sense.
My observation is that the casual, one-week-a-year skiers are more "princesses" about snow surface conditions than the nutcases on this and other ski forums. This is the main reason Colorado rules among that population in the US. The Alps have quite a few places that fit that criteria. James was just at St. Moritz, Exhibit A. Ischgl and the French Tarantaise resorts also fit this profile of massive on-piste complexes at sufficient altitude.
As for the nutcases, the Patricks of the ski world disdain those who can't handle variable conditions. Lonnie and a few friends have custom made M.O.A.C. hats and one of them a license plate.
And we've all heard the expression, "There's good snow and there's snow that's good for you."
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This from Jimmy Petterson in Saalbach today:
Monday Dec 18 was my flight home so I'm glad to have skied Toggenburg (900 to 2,262m) on Dec 17 with nice T2B conditions.
I thought we agreed long ago that casual one-week-a-year skiers have become virtually extinct in North America (and it's only been exacerbated by the VR/Alterra megapass duopoly) so I'm not sure whom you're referencing. As I noted above, a good-sized percentage of casual skiers in Europe go to one preferred high-end resort year after year come hell or high water. For example, the many Brits I ran into last March who were good-naturedly sticking out "Scotland weather" the entire week in Megève. For them, it was more important to hang around with their established group of friends/family and they had no plans to go elsewhere. I meanwhile was headed toward far better conditions in the Haute Maurienne and 3 Vallées.
I do not recall saying that. The Epic Day Pass is aimed at that crowd.
Christmas Week is still plenty busy, though perhaps less than historically due to blackouts on base level Epic and Ikon passes.
The duopoly is a barrier to entry for new skiers and a big problem for casual locals who would ski a day or two here and there. Many of the Christmas Week skiers are almost by definition less price sensitive since they are willing to pay up for holiday lodging and airfares. The one-week-a-year skiers are more numerous in Europe due to more vacation time (notably February school holidays) and far less need to travel by air. That doesn't mean they don't exist in North America; it's just a more affluent demographic which I don't think is necessarily shrinking.
Yup. With ski clubs, eclipse travel groups it's an inevitable rule of thumb: the larger the group, the less willing it is to be mobile to chase better weather/conditions.
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ChrisC
Well-known member
I think he has a sister in Les Diablerets area and that lower elevation resort group does not inspire.
I think the glaciers at Glacier 3000 are quite flat on top, the interior valleys and from look good.
Glacier 3000 looks like a promising first ski day Jan. 13 on the way from Geneva to Verbier and the upper Rhone Valley.
That sounds like what we want for snow stability.
ChrisC
Well-known member
There is a very interesting winter going on in the Alps - entirely based on altitude.
100% of Normal Map:
Checking out some lower-elevation resort conditions:
Morzine looks bad at only 1000m
Gstadd is not great at 1200m
Megeve has the same issues
Yet you look at Crans-Montana, Verbier, Zinal that sit at 1500m and most skiing above 1800-2000m. They are are great and at 100% open with very good coverage:
Deep Bases
I was interested in possibly skiing Gstaad, Megeve or La Clusaz while traveling to/from the big resorts of Val d'Isere/Tignes, Chamonix, Verbier and Zinal-Grimentz - but they may have to wait.
100% of Normal Map:
Checking out some lower-elevation resort conditions:
Morzine looks bad at only 1000m
Gstadd is not great at 1200m
Megeve has the same issues
Yet you look at Crans-Montana, Verbier, Zinal that sit at 1500m and most skiing above 1800-2000m. They are are great and at 100% open with very good coverage:
Deep Bases
I was interested in possibly skiing Gstaad, Megeve or La Clusaz while traveling to/from the big resorts of Val d'Isere/Tignes, Chamonix, Verbier and Zinal-Grimentz - but they may have to wait.
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I was hoping to get a couple days at Grand Massif. My arrival is still 22 days away so lots of time for a market correction.
Fraser reporting in from Bad Gastein:
Weathertoski.co.uk is currently in Bad Gastein where the weather was mostly sunny today with freezing levels around 1800m.
Snow conditions here in the Gastein valley are generally pretty good, with mostly hard-packed but grippy pistes, and some softer chalkier snow in places. Given the volume of traffic in recent days, there were also some icier patches lower down, especially on shadier slopes, as will be the case in most other resorts in the Alps right now. All in all, it was a great day’s skiing, made all the better by uninterrupted sunshine and particularly good visibility.
Elsewhere in the Alps there has been plenty of fine weather today, though the next storm has already hit the far western Alps at the time of writing and will continue to move east overnight. This storm will mostly affect the northern half of the Alps, with the heaviest falls (typically 10-15cm) due in the northern French and western Swiss Alps.
By the time it reaches Austria overnight, the storm will be less potent, delivering just a few centimetres here and there, mostly close to the northern edge of the Alps. The southern Alps will stay mostly dry. This evening and tonight the rain/snow limit will be around 1400-1700m for a time in the north-west, but a bit lower further east, before falling back towards 1000m everywhere overnight.
After something of a reprieve on Thursday, another storm will move in from the south-west late on Friday. This will merge with other weather fronts coming down from the north-west on Saturday and Sunday, meaning that all parts of the Alps are in with a good chance of significant snow by the end of the weekend, by which time it will also have turned much colder.
Today in the Alps
Updated: 4.50pm Wednesday 3 January 2024 - Lovely day in the Gastein valley today, but a new storm is now approaching the western Alps.Weathertoski.co.uk is currently in Bad Gastein where the weather was mostly sunny today with freezing levels around 1800m.
Snow conditions here in the Gastein valley are generally pretty good, with mostly hard-packed but grippy pistes, and some softer chalkier snow in places. Given the volume of traffic in recent days, there were also some icier patches lower down, especially on shadier slopes, as will be the case in most other resorts in the Alps right now. All in all, it was a great day’s skiing, made all the better by uninterrupted sunshine and particularly good visibility.
Elsewhere in the Alps there has been plenty of fine weather today, though the next storm has already hit the far western Alps at the time of writing and will continue to move east overnight. This storm will mostly affect the northern half of the Alps, with the heaviest falls (typically 10-15cm) due in the northern French and western Swiss Alps.
By the time it reaches Austria overnight, the storm will be less potent, delivering just a few centimetres here and there, mostly close to the northern edge of the Alps. The southern Alps will stay mostly dry. This evening and tonight the rain/snow limit will be around 1400-1700m for a time in the north-west, but a bit lower further east, before falling back towards 1000m everywhere overnight.
After something of a reprieve on Thursday, another storm will move in from the south-west late on Friday. This will merge with other weather fronts coming down from the north-west on Saturday and Sunday, meaning that all parts of the Alps are in with a good chance of significant snow by the end of the weekend, by which time it will also have turned much colder.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Flaine/GM looks fine. There is a 340cm base at the summit. Flaine starts at 1700m, and things look good. While the towns of Samoens and Morillon are low 700-800m, most of their interesting skiing is above 1400m or so. And we will have some storms plus snowmaking.
The one interesting GM thing I did not know about was the 10+km semi-off-piste/on-piste route to Sixt. RED
And the Gers Bowl area. ORANGE
There is a lot of skiing there.
The Jungfrau region is like OK since the 'interesting' skiing starts quite high - 1700m.
When do you go?
We plan to ski all of these before Val d'Isere.
I've considered that a borderline call, but yes I'm interested.
We have a 3 day reservation in Wengen that we can cancel up to Jan. 12. I skied Fraser if I should cancel, and he said yes if it does not improve. Wengen is at 1,274 meters and the highest ski lift service in the largest Wengen/Grindelwald sector is only 2,300.
I'm strongly inclined to linger in the upper Rhone Valley. Even the obscure James style places like Arolla, Belalp and Lauchernalp have lift service to 3,000 meters. The latter two, like Aletsch Arena, are on a high bench on the north side of the Rhone, with good snowfall reputations but heavily south facing. Whether the exposure will degrade off piste skiing at that altitude in January I don't know but will presumably find out at Crans Montana.
Flaine looks interesting.
I’m interested to see how that general area goes over the next few weeks.
I’m wondering if staying in a central valley town like Cluses might cover Grand Massif, Chamonix (for another go at the Vallee Blanche), Les Contamines (it’s got a bit more height and I’ve heard good things about no crowds) and the higher areas of PDS? Has anyone stayed there? Or would somewhere more touristy be better?
I’m considering the French area of Switzerland but Kylie’s keen on a detour to Lyon to do a lesson in macaron making. So the further west the better.
I’m interested to see how that general area goes over the next few weeks.
I’m wondering if staying in a central valley town like Cluses might cover Grand Massif, Chamonix (for another go at the Vallee Blanche), Les Contamines (it’s got a bit more height and I’ve heard good things about no crowds) and the higher areas of PDS? Has anyone stayed there? Or would somewhere more touristy be better?
I’m considering the French area of Switzerland but Kylie’s keen on a detour to Lyon to do a lesson in macaron making. So the further west the better.